The Pretty Good AE Debate

[ShardWarrior]

7 hours ago, Astralock said:

You are right, and wrong.  Veteran loss is due to what you said.  AE farming is, however, one reason for new player loss.

 

I know a lot of people have it in their head that Homecoming hardly gets any new players.  They are, of course, wrong.  A new player signs up on Homecoming.  He or she sees that Excelsior is the most populated shard, so he or she creates a new character.  The new player’s character loads into Atlas Park.  What does he or she see?

 

Loads of people begging for farms in the LFG channel constantly, and occasionally in zone Broadcast.  He or she will see AE farmers tell people in the LFG channel not to join a Citadel TF that was just advertised, because TFs are “crap XP” compared to AE farming.  He or she will see AE farmers tell others in the Help or General channel that only AE farming is worth doing, because it is the fastest way to both get to level 50 and get your Incarnate abilities.  Then that newbie may get a blind invite from an AE farmer, thinking that PLing the newbie is a favor.

 

The newbie, not knowing any better, joins, gets PLed to level 30+, and then leaves.  He or she has no knowledge of the game, does not know how to get to another zone, doesn’t know how to get a new mission, and has no INF to buy enhancements because the AE farmer told the newbie to get double XP boosters.

 

The new player has just been taught that Mission Architect is the entire game.  More than likely, he or she will log off and never return.

 

Everything I just described has happened quite a few times that I personally know of, with some variation.

 

There’s been a lot of “What harm does AE farming do?  I am not harming anyone,” in the thread.  There’s your harm.  AE farming has overall a negative impact on the health and longevity of the Homecoming community as at least some new players are driven off.

 

This looks like a job for Bullshit Man!

 

 

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, Parabola said:

I fail to see what is so threatening or even controversial about the idea that different in game activities should have rough parity in rewards/time but there we go. Apparently by saying that I'm accusing people of badwrongfun and trying to change the way they play. I don't see it myself.

 

I suspect that you don't really mean this though. If I'm just running around doing normal content, should I be making as much inf as someone who spends the same amount of time using the market? If the marketeer makes way more money, should there be a cap on the amount of inf you can make buying/selling in order to bring it in line with my earnings doing normal missions? 

 

What about pvp? If I spend an hour pvping, should I be getting the same rewards over time as someone running a TF? Particularly when you get virtually nothing for pvping compared to other types of game content.

 

There are a lot of disparities in the game for different reasons. It's completely arbitrary to point to AE rewards and say "oh this is a huge problem, let's tone down the rewards these players receive because THAT strikes me as unfair."

[MoonSheep]

2 hours ago, Black Zot said:

AE farmers are the primary source for all those relatively cheap IOs on Wentworth's people use to build their characters.  Kill AE, and that source dries up - and in turn, the now-nonexistent IO supply sends prices through the roof, at the same time as killing off one of the major sources of currency to pay those prices.

 

You want IO builds (the gateway to most of the fun the game has to offer) to be out of reach of all but the richest players?  This is how you do it.

 

If you're one of those jackasses who thinks Emmert was onto something with his "players should struggle against minions" BS, that probably sounds pretty good.  But you'll be enjoying your Dark Souls knockoff in a big empty, because anyone who valued their ability to solo above -1x1 will soon be gone.

 

or the devs could simply seed IO prices like they do already for salvage

[Andreah]

13 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

 

or the devs could simply seed IO prices like they do already for salvage

There's already an effective upper limit for IO prices.

 

All IO set recipes can be bought for Reward Merits; 20, 50, or 100.

 

Reward Merits can be straight out purchased for 1 Million Inf, as fast as you can click the button.

 

If IO set prices ever exceeded 20 million for uncommons, 50 million for rares, and 100 million for very rares; then just buying the merits and then buying/crafting the recipes would be cheaper. And if they exceeded them by any margin much greater than 10%, marketeers would be crafting them en masse to sell.

[ivanhedgehog]

2 hours ago, Parabola said:

Well this thread is serving predictably little purpose. Other than filling out my ignore list so that's something I suppose.

 

I fail to see what is so threatening or even controversial about the idea that different in game activities should have rough parity in rewards/time but there we go. Apparently by saying that I'm accusing people of badwrongfun and trying to change the way they play. I don't see it myself.

should someone that uses stealth to ghost radio missions to kill the 3 minions at the end and click a glowie get the same rewards as the player that kills 300 minion/lts/bosses/ebs? there needs to be parity between kills/objectives. you cant just have parity between the rewards.

[skoryy]

9 hours ago, Astralock said:

You are right, and wrong.  Veteran loss is due to what you said.  AE farming is, however, one reason for new player loss.

 

I know a lot of people have it in their head that Homecoming hardly gets any new players.  They are, of course, wrong.  A new player signs up on Homecoming.  He or she sees that Excelsior is the most populated shard, so he or she creates a new character.  The new player’s character loads into Atlas Park.  What does he or she see?

 

Loads of people begging for farms in the LFG channel constantly, and occasionally in zone Broadcast.  He or she will see AE farmers tell people in the LFG channel not to join a Citadel TF that was just advertised, because TFs are “crap XP” compared to AE farming.  He or she will see AE farmers tell others in the Help or General channel that only AE farming is worth doing, because it is the fastest way to both get to level 50 and get your Incarnate abilities.  Then that newbie may get a blind invite from an AE farmer, thinking that PLing the newbie is a favor.

 

The newbie, not knowing any better, joins, gets PLed to level 30+, and then leaves.  He or she has no knowledge of the game, does not know how to get to another zone, doesn’t know how to get a new mission, and has no INF to buy enhancements because the AE farmer told the newbie to get double XP boosters.

 

The new player has just been taught that Mission Architect is the entire game.  More than likely, he or she will log off and never return.

 

Everything I just described has happened quite a few times that I personally know of, with some variation.

 

There’s been a lot of “What harm does AE farming do?  I am not harming anyone,” in the thread.  There’s your harm.  AE farming has overall a negative impact on the health and longevity of the Homecoming community as at least some new players are driven off.

 

I feel like you're both right and wrong:

• Veterans that have been through leveling content plenty enough already shouldn't have to grind their way through that.
• New players that haven't been through leveling content should not be discouraged from doing it.

The problem is the current solution to the first problem, farming, is notably impacting the second problem.

 

Here's a possible solution: Guild Wars 2 showers players in leveling tomes for doing dailies.  The equivalent here, I would think, is cash in X number of Notice of the Wells for a free 50 level up and Y number of reward merits to start a build with.

[Parabola]

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

 

I suspect that you don't really mean this though. If I'm just running around doing normal content, should I be making as much inf as someone who spends the same amount of time using the market? If the marketeer makes way more money, should there be a cap on the amount of inf you can make buying/selling in order to bring it in line with my earnings doing normal missions? 

 

What about pvp? If I spend an hour pvping, should I be getting the same rewards over time as someone running a TF? Particularly when you get virtually nothing for pvping compared to other types of game content.

 

There are a lot of disparities in the game for different reasons. It's completely arbitrary to point to AE rewards and say "oh this is a huge problem, let's tone down the rewards these players receive because THAT strikes me as unfair."

I'm surprised you didn't mention RP. Yes, of course, some in game activities aren't directly comparable. Farming and regular play though are. In both you are engaging in the core gameplay loop, you are taking on challenge and defeating mobs for rewards. And I think there is balance to be pursued in that. So yes, I do mean it thanks.

[Excraft]

4 minutes ago, skoryy said:

 

I feel like you're both right and wrong:

• Veterans that have been through leveling content plenty enough already shouldn't have to grind their way through that.
• New players that haven't been through leveling content should not be discouraged from doing it.

The problem is the current solution to the first problem, farming, is notably impacting the second problem.

 

Emphasis added.  Prove it.  What data do you have that can be reviewed to show this is an actual problem?  Anecdotal stories do not count. 

[skoryy]

Just now, Excraft said:

 

Emphasis added.  Prove it.  What data do you have that can be reviewed to show this is an actual problem?  Anecdotal stories do not count. 

 

I'm not a dev, I don't have the data.  But the ancedotal data matches up to what I see when I check in on Everlasting or read on these here forums.  

 

If you don't want to believe the ancedotal evidence, that's fine but that's not a me problem.  

[Puma]

4 minutes ago, Parabola said:

I'm surprised you didn't mention RP. Yes, of course, some in game activities aren't directly comparable. Farming and regular play though are. In both you are engaging in the core gameplay loop, you are taking on challenge and defeating mobs for rewards. And I think there is balance to be pursued in that. So yes, I do mean it thanks.

So a team running radio missions, a team running a contact in Port Oaks, and a team running an ITF, and a team running a Lambda trial, and a farmer in the AE should all be receiving the same balance of rewards?  How on earth would that even work?  And at that point, wouldn't farmers just move to the easier route of speed running the easiest TFs we have?  Which happened, by the way...remember when everyone was speed running Katie Hannons for the merits?  

[skoryy]

7 minutes ago, Excraft said:

 

Emphasis added.  Prove it.  What data do you have that can be reviewed to show this is an actual problem?  Anecdotal stories do not count. 

 

The funny part is I offered a solution to reduce the impact of farming without even needing to nerf farming, and you jumped on me like I just stole your security blanket.

[Parabola]

5 minutes ago, Puma said:

So a team running radio missions, a team running a contact in Port Oaks, and a team running an ITF, and a team running a Lambda trial, and a farmer in the AE should all be receiving the same balance of rewards?  How on earth would that even work?  And at that point, wouldn't farmers just move to the easier route of speed running the easiest TFs we have?  Which happened, by the way...remember when everyone was speed running Katie Hannons for the merits?  

One shouldn't be as far ahead of the others as it is (in my opinion). Of course farmers are always going to farm whatever it is that offers the greatest return for their time, currently that's AE farming. I do remember the Katie Hannon's and I remember what happened - they reigned in the outlier. AE farming is now that outlier.

[Excraft]

7 minutes ago, skoryy said:

I'm not a dev, I don't have the data.

 

I'm not a dev, I don't have the data.  But the ancedotal data matches up to what I see when I check in on Everlasting or read on these here forums.  

 

Right, so you don't have any data.  You're just spouting falsehoods and hoping people will be stupid enough to buy it.  Anecdotal data doesn't work.  If you have any real data from actual, real, new player accounts that are legitimately new players, share it.  Otherwise you're just spouting BS and trying to pass it off as fact.  

 

Provide real quantifiable, measurable and verifiable data.

 

6 minutes ago, skoryy said:

The funny part is I offered a solution to reduce the impact of farming without even needing to nerf farming, and you jumped on me like I just stole your security blanket.

 

Yeah I'll call bullshit on any idea that's based on false information. 

[Coyotedancer]

2 hours ago, Bionic_Flea said:

  Farming for real money is hard work and no where near as profitable!

 

Yeah...

I planted those pennies after the first frost. I've watered them. I've weeded.

 

Still nada.

Not even a sprout.

 

I'm starting to think that the northwest just doesn't have the right climate for it. 😞

[skoryy]

2 minutes ago, Excraft said:

Yeah I'll call bullshit on any idea that's based on false information. 

 

You're not even arguing the idea.  You're reacting as if I was about to flush your cocaine stash down the toilet.

 

Again, that's not a me problem.

[ShardWarrior]

1 minute ago, skoryy said:

You're not even arguing the idea.  You're reacting as if I was about to flush your cocaine stash down the toilet.

 

Again, that's not a me problem.

 

Actually, it is a you problem.  You are basing any suggestions you have on false evidence. 

 

I have to agree, anecdotal evidence is not proof and any ideas put forth as "solutions" to problems that may not even exist because the "evidence" for them are suspect, it makes it a solution looking for a problem and filled with biases.  Personally, I would love to see any hard data the Homecoming folk has on this issue.  I am not sure how they can verify any new account is a player absolutely new to the game, nor do I believe they have any data as to the specific reason why people may have left.

 

This whole thing about AE farms driving off new players boils down to a select few people who do not like AE or farming trying to pass off anecdotal stories as fact and screaming for change.

[ivanhedgehog]

17 minutes ago, Parabola said:

One shouldn't be as far ahead of the others as it is (in my opinion). Of course farmers are always going to farm whatever it is that offers the greatest return for their time, currently that's AE farming. I do remember the Katie Hannon's and I remember what happened - they reigned in the outlier. AE farming is now that outlier.

you fail to complete the statement. now katie hannon is rarely completed. This proves that butchering rewards has bad consequences. The live devs had a bad habit. if there were 3 ways to solve a problem they chose all 3 ways and never looked back at the wreckage. the only tool they used was a sledgehammer. lets not follow in their footsteps.

[Coyotedancer]

If we're going to go with an "equal rewards for time-spent" thing... Can I get INF, iBits or loot drops from base-building?

 

Want to talk about CHALLENGE with a capital "Dammit. The editor just flung that tiny, nearly invisible glass bottle somewhere random in this huge room made with a thousand other objects"? There it is. In a time-sink with absolutely no bottom, with results often done for the benefit of other players as well as yourself.

 

Sure, a skilled builder with a lot of experience may be able to do it faster than a newbie... just like speedy-running taskforces... But still. If all activities need to be equally rewarding, I'm sure we could find an Average Time it takes to build a base of a particular size and complexity and then adjust the numbers from there.

 

(Yes. I'm being silly here. But the idea does poke a bit at the concept of effort and time investment not necessarily needing to be equally rewarded to be fun.)

 

 

 

Edited July 28, 2022 by Coyotedancer

[ShardWarrior]

48 minutes ago, Parabola said:

I'm surprised you didn't mention RP. Yes, of course, some in game activities aren't directly comparable. Farming and regular play though are. In both you are engaging in the core gameplay loop, you are taking on challenge and defeating mobs for rewards. And I think there is balance to be pursued in that. So yes, I do mean it thanks.

 

Using this as a measure does not work.  Non AE content can be sped through with little effort and still earn the same rewards for far less effort and little to no risk.  If you want to use that as your measure, every bit of content in this game would need to be nerfed to the point that everything rewards the same amount. 

[Troo]

2 hours ago, roleki said:

14 hours ago, Troo said:

 

Players... or accounts?

 

Oooh, good question.  Shit!  What if it's just been the 6 of us all along?

 

It's been reported that some run afk farms on one server while doing stuff on another. *gasp*

It has been outlined how one player could legitimately be logged in on over 10 accounts at one time (multiple severs, 3 accounts per server yada yadfa). Sounds extreme to me but there's a reason changes are being looked at and it isn't for QoL.

Safe to say that number could be half or less.

 

2 hours ago, Puma said:

 

 

Yep, it shows number of accounts while saying 'online players'.

Numbers rarely add up on that page and doesn't show the whole story.

 

[Puma]

1 hour ago, skoryy said:

 

  But the ancedotal data matches up to what I see when I check in on Everlasting or read on these here forums.  

 

If you don't want to believe the ancedotal evidence, that's fine but that's not a me problem.  

 

 What you just said is entirely redundant, and it suggests you don't understand why making changes based on anecdotal reports is a bad idea.  

[TheZag]

I havent actually read any of this.  I just check in once in awhile to see how many thumbs down poor MoonSheep has gotten after having his post moved and made to look like it started this topic.

 

[Bionic_Flea]

20 minutes ago, Troo said:

Numbers rarely add up on that page and doesn't show the whole story.

You know, I had not noticed that before.  I just looked at the numbers and accepted them without doing my own addition.

 

Excelsior shows 411 players/accounts, 269 heroes and 51 villains, which adds up 320.   What happened to the other 91?  Are they Praetorians?  Rogues and Vigilantes?  Or some other unknown possibility?

[Troo]

Yep Rs, Vs, & Ps would be my guesses. But we're left to guess based on incomplete data.

[Coyotedancer]

On the other issue that we haven't really talked about yet, farmers being asshats to other players in Excelsior's Atlas Broadcast, LFG and other chat channels *is* problematic behavior. It needs to be delt with when it happens... I doubt there's much disagreement there. But I'd also say that's more of a Moderation and server culture issue than a mechanical problem.

 

It's something I've literally never seen happen on Everlasting or Torch. If it was a "natural" or "inevitable" out-growth of having farmers on the server or of using AE as a farming platform, that kind of crap would be universal across the shards. It just isn't.

 

If we really want to to fix that, maybe it's time to specifically address why Excelsior has been allowed to become Freedom's obnoxious dude-bro kid brother.