The Pretty Good AE Debate

[Coyotedancer]

9 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

You know, I had not noticed that before.  I just looked at the numbers and accepted them without doing my own addition.

 

Excelsior shows 411 players/accounts, 269 heroes and 51 villains, which adds up 320.   What happened to the other 91?  Are they Praetorians?  Rogues and Vigilantes?  Or some other unknown possibility?

 

How many are in the costume creator? One of the server status pages actually shows that as a separate category. It also may not count anyone sitting on the Character Select menu.

 

 

 

Edited July 28, 2022 by Coyotedancer

[roleki]

10 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

 

Actually, it is a you problem.  You are basing any suggestions you have on false evidence. 

 

I have to agree, anecdotal evidence is not proof and any ideas put forth as "solutions" to problems that may not even exist because the "evidence" for them are suspect, it makes it a solution looking for a problem and filled with biases.  Personally, I would love to see any hard data the Homecoming folk has on this issue.  I am not sure how they can verify any new account is a player absolutely new to the game, nor do I believe they have any data as to the specific reason why people may have left.

 

This whole thing about AE farms driving off new players boils down to a select few people who do not like AE or farming trying to pass off anecdotal stories as fact and screaming for change.

Agreed, but to be honest, I question whether - even armed with every bit of data imaginable - the devs would even KNOW what they are looking at; not because they aren't up to the task or whatever, but there's a very high probability that what was happening in the real world for 2/3 of HC's reign of prominence would either skew the data or make it completely useless.  Population spike/ebb could have been the result of people suddenly having a lot of time on their hands, then suddenly not.  But I know I would have been playing the crap out of CoH whether there was a pandemic or not, and maybe that's true of the entire playerbase, meaning the data they have is dead accurate.  Somewhere in-between? 

Regardless, publish that data and people of every stripe will use it as evidence to support whatever notion they favor, and unfortunately, none of them will be wrong.

[Darmian]

5 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

It's something I've literally never seen happen on Everlasting or Torch.

I've not seen it on Reunion either in the three years + I've been here. I've got a few characters peppered across all the shards, and I have seen it on Excel, sadly.

[Bionic_Flea]

27 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

On the other issue that we haven't really talked about yet, farmers being asshats to other players in Excelsior's Atlas Broadcast, LFG and other chat channels *is* problematic behavior. It needs to be delt with when it happens... I doubt there's much disagreement there. But I'd also say that's more of a Moderation and server culture issue than a mechanical problem.

I haven't really seen it on Excelsior either (which is supposed to be the worst offender), but obviously I'm not always on, and even when on I'm not paying attention to all channels (almost never pay attention to General and Broadcast). 

 

But I think removing the AE buildings from the starter zones might help with that a little bit.  It's actually surprising how well that part of the changes have been received.  No one seems too upset that they firebombed the AE building in Mercy!

 

Edited July 28, 2022 by Bionic_Flea

[roleki]

6 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

 

How many are in the costume creator? One of the server status pages actually shows that as a separate category. It also may not count anyone sitting on the Character Select menu.

 

 

 

We also don't know if it counts people who have actually stopped to read the EULA, or any keepalives for accounts that exited unnaturally via dc/crash, etc.  I suspect the real number is whatever each server's hero/villain count is.  But as @Troo pointed out, it could be Jamie Madrox.  

[Darmian]

56 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

If we're going to go with an "equal rewards for time-spent" thing... Can I get INF, iBits or loot drops from base-building?

ROFL.

 

Can I get more than 3 to 5 tickets for a play of one of my SFMA AEs then, considering exactly how long it takes to write one of those things that's a CHUNK of time spent!

 

No, I knew the rewards for that when I started doing it.  The rewards was me being relatively pleased I'd done a decent enough job on a story.

[The_Warpact]

1 minute ago, Bionic_Flea said:

  No one seems too upset that they firebombed the AE building in Mercy!

 

I don't know as if anyone was using it on Everlasting, I use Sharkhead and Steel AE buildings. It's easy to just buy a jet pack, get the invite and as a 50 it's smooth sailing to another zone.

(Of course it helps to know that there are other zones and modes of transport to get to those zones)

[Coyotedancer]

2 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

But I think removing the AE buildings from the starter zones might help with that a little bot.  It's actually surprising how well that part of the changes have been received.  No one seems too upset that they firebombed the AE building in Mercy!

 

 

I suspect you're right, and even though it's likely to make my quiet, Kings Row AE a bit more of a madhouse I do think it's a good idea if they want to steer real, undirected newbies in other directions.

 

And yeah. What happened to the one in Mercy is hilarious. I love it. 

[Troo]

6 minutes ago, roleki said:

But as @Troo pointed out, it could be Jamie Madrox.

 

is that a comic book reference?! well played.

 

3 minutes ago, The_Warpact said:

I don't know as if anyone was using it on Everlasting, I use Sharkhead and Steel AE buildings. It's easy to just buy a jet pack, get the invite and as a 50 it's smooth sailing to another zone.

(Of course it helps to know that there are other zones and modes of transport to get to those zones)

 

Pocket D entrances from the starting zones are available, Atlas to Pocket D is comically easy.

Pocket D also have vendors and trainers without having to leave the building.

Edited July 28, 2022 by Troo

[Darmian]

6 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

my quiet, Kings Row AE

Unless they've changed it, Studio B in Kings Row's AE doesn't have power suppression, but still nice and quiet.  Yes, no beam...

[Bionic_Flea]

7 minutes ago, Darmian said:

1 hour ago, Coyotedancer said:

If we're going to go with an "equal rewards for time-spent" thing... Can I get INF, iBits or loot drops from base-building?

ROFL.

Can I get more than 3 to 5 tickets for a play of one of my SFMA AEs then, considering exactly how long it takes to write one of those things that's a CHUNK of time spent!

No, I knew the rewards for that when I started doing it.  The rewards was me being relatively pleased I'd done a decent enough job on a story.

 

I propose a new thing: A tip jar where people can deposit, inf, recipes, other tradable stuff in a jar to show appreciation to a player's base, AE arc, costume, etc.

 

[Coyotedancer]

Just now, Darmian said:

Unless they've changed it, Studio B in Kings Row's AE doesn't have power suppression, but still nice and quiet.  Yes, no beam...

 

I meant quiet as in less traffic rather than no power effects...

 

On Ev, the King's Row AE is usually abandoned at the times I'm online, unlike the ones in Atlas and the D. I typically have it completely to myself when I go farming and I've gotten used to that. Having to share with a bunch of other people will just be weird. 😝

[roleki]

4 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

 

I propose a new thing: A tip jar where people can deposit, inf, recipes, other tradable stuff in a jar to show appreciation to a player's base, AE arc, costume, etc.

 

 

Sir, what you are suggesting is the ultimate AFK farming.  But nah, that's a great idea.  There are a lot of bases I walk into and I can't even fathom that they used the same toolset that I do.  

[Parabola]

6 minutes ago, roleki said:

There are a lot of bases I walk into and I can't even fathom that they used the same toolset that I do.  

Anything beyond 'big steel box with random kit scattered around one corner' is witchcraft as far as I am concerned.

[Troo]

Dear casual AE farmers,

 

As you may have noticed, there are some changes heading our way.

Some of the changes are to fix errors or oversights.

Some are to help in other areas and aren't intended to specifically target AE farms.

Only one change is specific to casual AE farms and that is the moving of AE Buildings from starting zones.

 

Other changes however seem to be targeting extreme offenders and these end up affecting a lot more folks.

Why aren't more casual AE farmers angry about the actions of some bad actors? They are the ones to blame for your frustration. Not the person debating the value of 'playing' content.

 

No one is coming for normal AE farms. Seriously, go farm some exp, $$, or drops all you want if you feel it's fun and efficient.

 

It is likely a few abusing exploits or other tactics who are forcing changes.

Don't like the changes, at least blame the right players.

 

 

Sincerely,

Troo

 

 

Edited July 29, 2022 by Troo
i edit stuff

[Excraft]

13 minutes ago, Troo said:

Other changes however are targeting extreme offenders and these end up affecting a lot more folks.

 

So when can we expect the nerfs to all TF content to prevent speed runs?  Those are extreme offenders too.  People are getting full rewards while skipping through the content for little to no risk and not spending enough time on it.

[Excraft]

57 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

On the other issue that we haven't really talked about yet, farmers being asshats to other players in Excelsior's Atlas Broadcast, LFG and other chat channels *is* problematic behavior.

 

Should be dealt with regardless if they're a farmer or not.  I've seen plenty of people who aren't farming acting like jerks.   Just report them and let the GMs do their thing.

[Excraft]

1 hour ago, Puma said:

 What you just said is entirely redundant, and it suggests you don't understand why making changes based on anecdotal reports is a bad idea.  

 

Unfortunately a lot of changes made here are due to anecdotal evidence made by the inner circle.

[Troo]

21 minutes ago, Excraft said:

 

So when can we expect the nerfs to all TF content to prevent speed runs?  Those are extreme offenders too.  People are getting full rewards while skipping through the content for little to no risk and not spending enough time on it.

 

Good point, maybe make a suggestion. (though I don't think they are as extreme as you're making it out compared to the issue at hand)

I think some tweaks, not nerfs, may be in the same release. Not eliminating speed runs, but increasing some of the risk, and at least making them a bit more dicey.

 

Aren't there diminishing returns in repeating TFs? Are you asking for the same treatment on AE Farms? I don't think that would be very popular, but you do you.

 

////////

 

oh, geez. not thumbs down with no explanation. OH NOOoo..

 

 

Edited July 28, 2022 by Troo

[Ruin Mage]

23 minutes ago, Excraft said:

So when can we expect the nerfs to all TF content to prevent speed runs?  Those are extreme offenders too.  People are getting full rewards while skipping through the content for little to no risk and not spending enough time on it.

Never.

Speedruns for life.

[Without_Pause]

On 7/26/2022 at 11:33 PM, SwitchFade said:

And, not a single person who is advocating for AE to retain it's ridiculous reward structure has given any reason when asked, "why should AE he have dramatically outsized rewards vs all other content?"

 

What DOES occur, however, is the usual straw men, ad hominem, hyperbole, etc...

 

"You just want me to play your way!" ... No, no one said you should play their way

 

"You think farming is wrong!".... No, no one thinks that, farming is fine

 

"You want to force me to play story content!" ... No, no one said that, you can play any content

 

"My fun is farming in AE, you want to take that away!" ... No, no one wants to take away AE

 

Every argument defending the fact that AE returns are MAGNITUDES greater than all other content is ad hominem, hyperbole, strawman or deflection.

 

Few actually come out and say, "I want that ridiculous rate of return for less effort." Being honest is, at least, respectable.

 

Read closely.

 

No one wants to stop farming. No one thinks farming is bad. No one wants to stop AE farming. No one wants you to play their way.

 

Focus on the issue that keeps coming up,

 

AE should not have any different rate of return than any other content, ever. All content should be equal returns. AE should never have been allowed to have any different rate of return than all other content, neither lower or higher.

 

Play anything you like, any way you like, secure in the knowledge that you're not being discriminated against. AE should be EQUAL to all other content.

 

AE giving the same rewards as other content would be a buff to AE content. You do realize that? I mean, what specific rewards are coming from AE which aren't coming from elsewhere? If I can blow through +4/x8 content in and out of AE, how is AE specifically giving me more rewards? Hell, I can do story arcs in regular content and get Merits for it as well.

[Ironblade]

5 hours ago, Excraft said:

Fair enough but if you're getting interrupted with that much real life stuff while playing that this is a problem for you, maybe you should log off and deal with stuff that's more important? 

Not everyone has the luxury of arranging their life to accommodate uninterrupted gaming time.

And, of course, by their very nature 'emergencies' are unpredictable and can not be scheduled.

I'm not saying this applies to most players, but it irrefutably applies to some.

 

 

5 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

The Server Status tab at the top of the page displays # of Players AND their Hero or Villain alignment. 

In fact, it does not.

Even though it uses the word 'Players' in the heading, it is actually showing how many ACCOUNTS are active.  Within the TOS, one PLAYER can be running three ACCOUNTS.  I personally have three accounts.  When I have all of them logged in simultaneously, the forums will show me as being three players because the game can not distinguish.

[Without_Pause]

On 7/26/2022 at 10:42 PM, Akisan said:

Seriously, @Without_Pause?!  Yes, fine, my original post in our back and forth wasn't well worded, and fairly ambiguous.  It is possible, with that wording, that I did say that farming is all about damage, which, yes, isn't true.  That was NOT the intent of my post though, and since you're hanging doggedly onto that mis-wording after I clarified and elaborated on my position, I have the distinct feeling that you're deliberately mis-interpreting my posts.

I get your point. I just find it to be wrong.

[ivanhedgehog]

1 hour ago, Bionic_Flea said:

I haven't really seen it on Excelsior either (which is supposed to be the worst offender), but obviously I'm not always on, and even when on I'm not paying attention to all channels (almost never pay attention to General and Broadcast). 

 

But I think removing the AE buildings from the starter zones might help with that a little bit.  It's actually surprising how well that part of the changes have been received.  No one seems too upset that they firebombed the AE building in Mercy!

 

Honestly? It doesnt really even register. I am more interested in the "universal base". If I have a friend and they need 1/2 a level for us to start a manticore TF, I can easily get them that anywhere. That is most of the pl'ing I do. I find TF's the best content in the game. Moonfire was what hooked me and frostfire is a mini tf before the TF.

[ivanhedgehog]

1 hour ago, Darmian said:

ROFL.

 

Can I get more than 3 to 5 tickets for a play of one of my SFMA AEs then, considering exactly how long it takes to write one of those things that's a CHUNK of time spent!

 

No, I knew the rewards for that when I started doing it.  The rewards was me being relatively pleased I'd done a decent enough job on a story.

that is pretty lame. it wouldnt break the bank to buff that a bit.