The Pretty Good AE Debate

[Stoked]

3 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

I don't get it. I really don't. One of the real strengths of the City has always been its variety of playstyles. Solo, full team, farm, roleplay, read all the things Loregasm... It all works. Or at least it always has. Apparently that annoys some people.

 

This same sentiment has been shared over and over by a great number of people in various threads. Most of those posts are hidden now. Rest assured, we the undesirables have copied them for safe keeping to be shared everywhere else. Your comments are well put sir / ma'am, thank you for sharing.

[biostem]

4 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

I'm getting the feeling more and more these days that a vocal segment of the forum population, and at least some of the Powers That Be. have a very definite "type" of player that they want to encourage, attract to these servers and keep engaged.... Team-oriented, challenge-oriented, all-about-the-struggle sorts with Lore/Plot Snob tendencies (Not Roleplayers, mind, but people willing to put up with buckets of exposition and all of the god-awful writing of the legacy content).

 

Anyone else is "doing it wrong" and seems to be seen as extraneous, or even actively harmful to what they want the game to be.

 

Farmers (Active, AFK< whatever. We're all BADWRONGEVIL, apparently-), dedicated solos and small-team players, casuals who couldn't care less about Hard Modes, people who are here for the spectacle more than the backstories? Undesirables. Not the target audience. Not the 'right kind of people'. 

 

I don't get it. I really don't. One of the real strengths of the City has always been its variety of playstyles. Solo, full team, farm, roleplay, read all the things Loregasm... It all works. Or at least it always has. Apparently that annoys some people.

I disagree with your sentiment, and chalk it up more to "concern-trolling"...

[Coyotedancer]

5 minutes ago, biostem said:

I disagree with your sentiment, and chalk it up more to "concern-trolling"...

 

'Not the first time someone has decided I'm a troll for not agreeing with the direction something seemed to be going... 

[Ukase]

1 minute ago, biostem said:

I disagree with your sentiment, and chalk it up more to "concern-trolling"...

You're entitled to disagree. That's fair. But I'm in agreement with Coyotedancer. It certainly seems as if a vocal minority would have me, and others like me removed from the game completely.

I can only assume these folks aren't really sure of what cause and effect is when you remove farmers from a game with a small player population. Take a look at Rebirth some time. They're still spending 25 to 50M for a Luck of the Gambler 7.5%. (mind you, they do award everyone vip tokens that contain options for packs or converters and various costume trash options. I must have thousands of merits, ATOs and purples there, just from logging in weekly during maintenance. And they allow as many accounts as you wish.) 

There is no wrong way to play. While it's come to my attention the HC Devs would rather I not farm for emp merits, so now I won't. All they had to do was say something. It seemed to me they wanted us to do this to keep converters available cheaply. But I guess that's not the case. So, I will farm my 50's to avoid iTrial burnout and get emps for incarnate materials - at least until they start selling emps. Seems like a Merit Vendor would sell emp merits, but I guess that's too much to hope for. 

[Bionic_Flea]

11 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

I'm getting the feeling more and more these days that a vocal segment of the forum population, and at least some of the Powers That Be. have a very definite "type" of player that they want to encourage, attract to these servers and keep engaged.... Team-oriented, challenge-oriented, all-about-the-struggle sorts with Lore/Plot Snob tendencies (Not Roleplayers, mind, but people willing to put up with buckets of exposition and all of the god-awful writing of the legacy content).

I get that you have that feeling, but this new page has a lot more stuff than just the AE stuff and hard mode ITF.  New RP bars and "bases"; new costume stuff including all the temp costumes (I made a stone/staff tanker on test with Nemesis Costume and Nemesis Staff.  So much fun!); new incarnate story arcs and repeatables that can be run solo; new badges; new power sets; new maps; etc.

[biostem]

4 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

'Not the first time someone has decided I'm a troll for not agreeing with the direction something seemed to be going... 

Perhaps they came to that conclusion, but not for the reason you've stated...

[Coyotedancer]

Just now, biostem said:

Perhaps they came to that conclusion, but not for the reason you've stated...

 

Maybe not, but if I really wanted to troll you this isn't the way I would do it...

 

In the end, I suspect you and Moon and the rest are going to win. Those of us who don't fit the mold will find other games to play. 

[Ghost]

3 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

I get that you have that feeling, but this new page has a lot more stuff than just the AE stuff and hard mode ITF.  New RP bars and "bases"; new costume stuff including all the temp costumes (I made a stone/staff tanker on test with Nemesis Costume and Nemesis Staff.  So much fun!); new incarnate story arcs and repeatables that can be run solo; new badges; new power sets; new maps; etc.

It’s weird.  Seems players have focused on what they don’t like, and perceive it as the devs way to get rid of them.

There are far easier ways to get rid of farmers/soloists/RPers than to make small changes over several years.

 

[MoonSheep]

7 minutes ago, Ukase said:

I can only assume these folks aren't really sure of what cause and effect is when you remove farmers from a game with a small player population.

 

the market already has price caps in place for IOs through the various seeding in place and merit conversion. prices can be capped through further seeding if required

 

 

 

[biostem]

4 minutes ago, Ukase said:

You're entitled to disagree. That's fair. But I'm in agreement with Coyotedancer. It certainly seems as if a vocal minority would have me, and others like me removed from the game completely.

Or you're just paranoid.  You haven't been removed, and if you're at all concerned about that happening in the future, contact a mod/admin and state your position/concerns.

 

6 minutes ago, Ukase said:

I can only assume these folks aren't really sure of what cause and effect is when you remove farmers from a game with a small player population. Take a look at Rebirth some time. They're still spending 25 to 50M for a Luck of the Gambler 7.5%. (mind you, they do award everyone vip tokens that contain options for packs or converters and various costume trash options. I must have thousands of merits, ATOs and purples there, just from logging in weekly during maintenance. And they allow as many accounts as you wish.) 

You are certainly free to assume whatever you like, but it is a fact that when you flood the market with inf, the buying power of each individual inf becomes less.  Alternatively, you ccan run content that gives you merits and directly buy whatever you want.

 

8 minutes ago, Ukase said:

There is no wrong way to play. While it's come to my attention the HC Devs would rather I not farm for emp merits, so now I won't. All they had to do was say something. It seemed to me they wanted us to do this to keep converters available cheaply. But I guess that's not the case. So, I will farm my 50's to avoid iTrial burnout and get emps for incarnate materials - at least until they start selling emps. Seems like a Merit Vendor would sell emp merits, but I guess that's too much to hope for. 

I can't speak to the devs' underlying motives.  Farming AE was never something I did to any great extent, so this change won't impact me, but I don't really care what other people do, as long as they can play competently.

[biostem]

4 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

Maybe not, but if I really wanted to troll you this isn't the way I would do it...

 

In the end, I suspect you and Moon and the rest are going to win. Those of us who don't fit the mold will find other games to play. 

I chose to login to these forums.  I chose to read this thread.  I don't think I've interacted with you in the past.  I don't care for idle threats or promises of a good time.  Take your sour grapes elsewhere.

 

*I* didn't win anything.  I have no dog in the game.  I've only ever done minimal farming to get my characters to 22, (so I can slot them up with some 25 IOs), or in some doldrum levels before 50.  I get that some people want to or like to farm post-50 stuff.  Plead your case with the devs, and after that, if you still don't get your way, either adapt to the change or move on...

[ivanhedgehog]

4 hours ago, Astralock said:

 

If you play strictly solo, you don’t need Empyrean merits nor Incarnate threads as you don’t need Incarnate abilities.  Incarnate abilities are for Incarnate content, namely Incarnate trials.  Everything else can be played just fine without Incarnate abilities.

 

Honestly, one of the biggest mistakes Paragon Studios made in the end was to let Incarnate abilities other than Alpha work in non-Incarnate content.  I understand that they were actually against it but were pressured to allow it by NC corporate, but still.

that argument came straight from the wow forums. Incarnate system is part of character progression. I may do MISSIONS solo but I have never managed to solo hami, you I gotta let the others help me. You dont need any rewards in the game, but if you cut people off from them because a few elitists want you to, you start eroding the player base. This could be part of why wow is so much smaller today than in 2007

[Coyotedancer]

That wasn't a threat. It was just a statement. I have no interest in trolling anyone, honestly... I just see a direction in many of the conversations here and in the changes being made to the game over time that I don't really agree with or understand the motivations behind given the nature of the game. From here, it looks like lining up a particular preferred playstyle. 

 

It's fine if you disagree. We're never all going to agree on anything... But that doesn't mean I'm trolling you by raising the issue or making the observation.

[biostem]

7 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

That wasn't a threat. It was just a statement. I have no interest in trolling anyone, honestly... I just see a direction in many of the conversations here and in the changes being made to the game over time that I don't really agree with or understand the motivations behind given the nature of the game. From here, it looks like lining up a particular preferred playstyle. 

 

It's fine if you disagree. We're never all going to agree on anything... But that doesn't mean I'm trolling you by raising the issue or making the observation.

So unless it is from a mode/dev/admin, stating their intent, I wouldn't read too much into what people post here - you may be interpreting a particular causation when all there really is is correlation.  My use of the term "concern-trolling" was not to accuse you of trolling in the regular sense, but that people sometimes bring up their "concerns" regarding a change or decision that was made, (or is upcoming), when in fact what they want is to spur others into raising a ruckus.  regardless, no, I don't think you're actually trolling or threatening me.

[Neiska]

1 hour ago, Ghost said:

There are people on here who try to dictate how others play.  Whether it be the "no AE/farming group" or the "force PvP on everyone crowd". 

Is it honestly any different than what you're saying?  You prefer a playstyle, and don't want it to change.  Others enjoy a differing style, and want it to change.  Still sounds like two different styles trying to impose what they want on others

 

I agree, it's fine to respectfully disagree.

 

But first, I saw such things in LFG just last night. A discussion happened where some rather colorfully expressed their disfavor of law enforcement. Another player, claiming to be law enforcement, retorted. And it went from there.

 

Next, that tool that circumvented that "small inconvenience" is what enabled some people to play the game in the first place. Without it, my two friends were unable to really play, without someone on auto follow to move around from zone to zone, mission to mission. Once that was gone, well, so was their ability to play open world content, and neither cared to play AE. My point was what is a small matter to "you" doesn't make it a small matter/petty excuse to "everyone." And that's just one example.

 

And yes, there is a difference. A rather large one. The difference is, you don't hear the farmers calling to nerf all non-farm or power leveling content, which quite regularly from those who don't like farming. It isn't both sides dictating to each other, its one side (nonfarmers) lecturing/dictating to the other (farmers). The farmers aren't pushing for a change that would affect everyone, that's just one side.

 

Right now? It's "if you don't like the AE, fine, then don't use it." But over the past few years we have seen everything from nerfing AE (again), to removing exp from it entirely, to removing money, or drops, to removing it completely. You will never hear anyone saying "remove everything that isn't AE content." So, I have to disagree there. The "farmer's" aren't pushing their play on anyone, while some who don't farm are for some reason so massively butthurt by how others choose to spend their time, they want to see it removed or gutted completely. I wouldn't call that "equal opposition" by any stretch.

[The_Warpact]

I keep seeing the same minority of people doing the "thumb down " stuff and commenting on anything closely related to farming. These players make it very well known their position to everyone. 

Which in turn has the same opposing group of players arguing with them. Yes, it is an argument there is no debate. One side wants it removed and doesn't care about repercussions from those actions.

The other side has stated just leave it alone, it's going to have ill effects, don't tell me how to play, etc.

 

Both sides have their reasoning on why it will mess everything up or is messing everything up. 

 

Yes. There are other things in this update which no one has been focused on as much as this argument from the Beta threads to General. Nothing is getting solved other than threads getting locked and bad feelings all around.

 

I came to a conclusion because initially I was pissed when this all started. But, now I don't care, it's a fucking game. If it changes in a way I don't like, so what I'll move on to other things. There are other servers, MMOs, console, etc out there that I can go to if I don't like this. 

 

Because, really all this shit is drama, petty fucking soap opera drama on a video game.

 

[Grouchybeast]

47 minutes ago, Ghost said:

There are far easier ways to get rid of farmers/soloists/RPers than to make small changes over several years.

 

This.  If the devs want to drive out AE farmers, then they probably need to put more effort into it than making occasional minor tweaks that leave AE as still by far the most profitable way to grind drops in the entire game.  Like, either they don't actually want to destroy AE farming, or they're so astoundingly bad at it that AE farmers don't need to worry anyway.

Edited August 5, 2022 by Grouchybeast

[Coyotedancer]

1 minute ago, biostem said:

So unless it is from a mode/dev/admin, stating their intent, I wouldn't read too much into what people post here - you may be interpreting a particular causation when all there really is is correlation.  My use of the term "concern-trolling" was not to accuse you of trolling in the regular sense, but that people sometimes bring up their "concerns" regarding a change or decision that was made, (or is upcoming), when in fact what they want is to spur others into raising a ruckus.  regardless, no, I don't think you're actually trolling or threatening me.

 

That's part of the thing, though... A few dev statements have been made that do make me wonder. It's not just a matter of other players being vocal about their preferences. Players have been grumping and accusing each other of "doing it wrong" for as long as we've had a game to play and forums to argue on...

 

It's also not only about changes included in Page 4, or what's being done and discussed right now. Recent threads have just brought the observation more into focus, I guess. The level of hostility in a few of them has been unusual, even for a gaming forum. 

 

Anyway, I'm just going to sum up and say that this particular player at least feels like they're slowly being voted off of our proverbial island and I'm grouchy about it. 

[biostem]

20 minutes ago, Neiska said:

Right now? It's "if you don't like the AE, fine, then don't use it." But over the past few years we have seen everything from nerfing AE (again), to removing exp from it entirely, to removing money, or drops, to removing it completely. You will never hear anyone saying "remove everything that isn't AE content." So, I have to disagree there. The "farmer's" aren't pushing their play on anyone, while some who don't farm are for some reason so massively butthurt by how others choose to spend their time, they want to see it removed or gutted completely. I wouldn't call that "equal opposition" by any stretch.

I think a big part of the divide stems from the notion of "fairness" and the disparity between "have's" and "have-not's" - On one end of the spectrum, you get purists, who stick to contact and story arc content, and deem that the only legitimate way to play - so they put in X amount of time and receive Y reward.  OTOH, you get more power-gamey folks, who farm themselves, get others to farm while they sit, or otherwise fully stock their characters ahead of time, and result in greater rewards for a shorter amount of time invested.  I'm not saying either side is fundamentally correct in their assessment, just that the division between the 2 mindsets can be so extreme, (and even impact the in-game economy in some cases), that such disparate stances may be irreconcilable...  

Edited August 5, 2022 by biostem

[biostem]

Just now, Coyotedancer said:

The level of hostility in a few of them has been unusual, even for a gaming forum. 

I mean, I've outright seen death threats in gaming forums, so this doesn't phase me.

 

1 minute ago, Coyotedancer said:

That's part of the thing, though... A few dev statements have been made that do make me wonder.

Can you point me to some?  Honestly, from what I've read, I don't get that vibe, but I am open to being proven wrong.  A lot can be down to the eye of the beholder, here...

 

3 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

Anyway, I'm just going to sum up and say that this particular player at least feels like they're slowly being voted off of our proverbial island and I'm grouchy about it. 

Again, I have to chalk this up to "eye of the beholder" stuff.  You are going to feel how you are included to, but I, at least, don't want anyone to go...

[Bionic_Flea]

11 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

Anyway, I'm just going to sum up and say that this particular player at least feels like they're slowly being voted off of our proverbial island and I'm grouchy about it. 

 

 

[Coyotedancer]

6 minutes ago, biostem said:

I mean, I've outright seen death threats in gaming forums, so this doesn't phase me.

 

Can you point me to some?  Honestly, from what I've read, I don't get that vibe, but I am open to being proven wrong.  A lot can be down to the eye of the beholder, here...

 

Again, I have to chalk this up to "eye of the beholder" stuff.  You are going to feel how you are included to, but I, at least, don't want anyone to go...

 

I haven't gotten any death threats yet, but it's probably only a matter of time. 😝

 

I haven't kept bookmarks of dev statements over the last couple of years, but just two recent ones that made me raise an eyebrow on the "preferred playstyle" front are over in the beta threads. One involved how much of mistake the dev in question thought that the vet level iBit grants were (The implication being they disincentivized getting those materials the team-centric old-fashioned way, with some mention of the "content development devs" being displeased about the current state of affairs-). The other had to do with the new Cim repeatable missions being "solo" content that had been designed specifically so that it might actually require a team to complete. 

 

No one statement has ever been a direct and unmistakable smoking gun, granted... but after awhile it has started to look like there are preferences when it comes to how they expect and want the game played. 

[SwitchFade]

2 hours ago, Coyotedancer said:

 

'Not the first time someone has decided I'm a troll for not agreeing with the direction something seemed to be going... 

Heh, I have an image of a cartoon bridge troll in my head...

 

"Can't pass lest ye pay the toll, my lovelies!"

[Neiska]

1 hour ago, biostem said:

I think a big part of the divide stems from the notion of "fairness" and the disparity between "have's" and "have-not's" - On one end of the spectrum, you get purists, who stick to contact and story arc content, and deem that the only legitimate way to play - so they put in X amount of time and receive Y reward.  OTOH, you get more power-gamey folks, who farm themselves, get others to farm while they sit, or otherwise fully stock their characters ahead of time, and result in greater rewards for a shorter amount of time invested.  I'm not saying either side is fundamentally correct in their assessment, just that the division between the 2 mindsets can be so extreme, (and even impact the in-game economy in some cases), that such disparate stances may be irreconcilable...  

 

That is a fair assessment. But I don't think the "have's" and "have-not's" are necessarily who people think they might be. I mean, there are people who sit in the D for hours far richer than I, who play the AH market game while they roleplay. Some of the richest folks I know are like, level 5? If you want to prune that wealth gap, its not the farmers who are the "have's" in that scenario, its the people who play the in game monopoly market.

[SwitchFade]

1 hour ago, The_Warpact said:

I keep seeing the same minority of people doing the "thumb down " stuff and commenting on anything closely related to farming. These players make it very well known their position to everyone. 

Which in turn has the same opposing group of players arguing with them. Yes, it is an argument there is no debate. One side wants it removed and doesn't care about repercussions from those actions.

The other side has stated just leave it alone, it's going to have ill effects, don't tell me how to play, etc.

 

Both sides have their reasoning on why it will mess everything up or is messing everything up. 

 

Yes. There are other things in this update which no one has been focused on as much as this argument from the Beta threads to General. Nothing is getting solved other than threads getting locked and bad feelings all around.

 

I came to a conclusion because initially I was pissed when this all started. But, now I don't care, it's a fucking game. If it changes in a way I don't like, so what I'll move on to other things. There are other servers, MMOs, console, etc out there that I can go to if I don't like this. 

 

Because, really all this shit is drama, petty fucking soap opera drama on a video game.

 

Yes but...

 

Will bill wake up from his coma?

 

And does Betty know June had a child with the milkman, who is secretly Bret's uncle?

 

When will the colonel be back from Montana and how will this affect the wedding between bret and panelipe?

 

ALL this and more, on next week's SOAP!