The Pretty Good AE Debate

[Darmian]

20 minutes ago, The_Warpact said:

Good Gourd what are we talking about now??

The Devs are taking Legacy Salvage away!!!! BOOO!!

[scottocamp]

I was composing this when the Widower struck yesterday.  J

As mentioned in another thread, I believe the developers simply want people to play slightly more “regular” content and slightly less AE content.  Especially with new content being developed.  It is an aesthetics / sensibilities driven decision.  Which is their prerogative – but I believe it is difficult to force behavioral change upon people.  Best to tempt players away from AE with better rewards in the content you want them to play.  I also believe AE missions are often appealing for reasons unconnected to rewards.  And that it is counter-productive to imply the change is for one reason (unbalanced rewards) when the actual reason might be otherwise (we just really want people to play the new content).

I don’t ever run AE missions, but just out of curiosity I created a dummy toon and paired it with my Stone/Rad tank.  I picked the tank simply for survivability reasons.  I ran the first mission of the Brigg’s 125 arc that has been referenced in this thread.  (Very cool costumes in the mission!)  After exactly 10 minutes of play at 4x8 settings the dummy toon advanced from level 1 to level 15.8 (with double experience boosters) and my tank had earned 3.4 million in influence.  The tank gained roughly one quarter of a veteran level of experience.  Then I did the same thing on a PI Council map.  I found a map with the big warehouse at the end with no elevators.  The dummy toon advanced to level 14.3 after 10 minutes of play at 4x8 settings and my tank earned 2.4 million in influence.  The tank gained roughly one quarter of a veteran level of experience.  I did this three times with basically the same results each time.

The AE map is clearly more efficient – at least for gaining influence.  But mostly because the map is so compact and the mobs come running at you while you have to run at the mobs in the PI Council map.  But it hardly seems like a game-breaking difference.  Certainly not “orders of magnitudes” of difference as some have suggested.  Over the course of an hour I would generate $6 million more influence running the AE map rather than the Council map.  Compared to the return on spending an hour converting enhancements that seems like a minimal difference.  Nonetheless the AE map returns roughly 40% more influence for my time.  The difference in power leveling a second character and advancing in veteran levels to farm empyreans seems much less significant.  Perhaps 10% more efficient.

It may well be that AE maps are easier to set up for AFK farming.  I don’t honestly know because I don’t know how to set up AFK farms.  But proposed game changes don’t seem directly targeted toward AFK activities.  Perhaps a timer on AE maps as others have suggested?  If the acquisition of empyreans through leveling and subsequent conversion to merits is seen as a problem – curtailing AE activity won’t solve that.  You can level nearly as quickly through other content. 

I think playing AE content just “feels” wrong to some people.  Just like the Sentinel AT feels wrong to some.  Or mission transporters feel wrong.  Or whatever.  But from my very limited tests AE does not seem like a threat to regular content.  I would still choose regular content over AE content for leveling purposes.  Gaining badges for accolades and such are more valuable to me than leveling slightly faster.  And if I needed extra influence I would still convert enhancements rather than run an AE map.  Honestly the only attraction for me was the simplified map.  I find navigating needlessly complex caves and warehouses frustrating.  There was something oddly pleasant about not running into walls over and over.

 

[Top Gear]

11 minutes ago, scottocamp said:

 I believe it is difficult to force behavioral change upon people.  Best to tempt players away from AE with better rewards in the content you want them to play. 

 

Absolutely what has been suggested over and over. Thank you for taking the time to do your testing. I'd take it one step further. Why the heck don't we just make available a "fast to 50 toon" with enough influence to cover a load of IO's? If someone wants to skip all the pre-50 junk and jump right into TF's and such, let them. That will also keep the gold diggers away. Why would people buy influence or get power leveled for money if they can get a free 50? Seems like you solve both problems at once.

 

I mean, unless the devs themselves are running the gold farming enterprise and using the nerfs on AE to stop competition. But that's just being paranoid.

Edited August 10, 2022 by Top Gear

[Stoked]

... and ... crickets

[Stoked]

41 minutes ago, scottocamp said:

I don’t ever run AE missions, but just out of curiosity I created a dummy toon and paired it with my Stone/Rad tank.  I picked the tank simply for survivability reasons.  I ran the first mission of the Brigg’s 125 arc that has been referenced in this thread.  (Very cool costumes in the mission!)  After exactly 10 minutes of play at 4x8 settings the dummy toon advanced from level 1 to level 15.8 (with double experience boosters) and my tank had earned 3.4 million in influence.  The tank gained roughly one quarter of a veteran level of experience.  Then I did the same thing on a PI Council map.  I found a map with the big warehouse at the end with no elevators.  The dummy toon advanced to level 14.3 after 10 minutes of play at 4x8 settings and my tank earned 2.4 million in influence.  The tank gained roughly one quarter of a veteran level of experience.  I did this three times with basically the same results each time.

Thanks for adding your data. Why have we gone the route of pointing to a single AE map (125) for all things AE? There are thousands of AE maps, some garnering developer support as well. That's part of the problem with this proposed change. You will affect every AE map, not just 125. If the REAL target of this effort is to do away with over-zealous farming, then don't allow +4/8 settings on the asteroid. Limit that map to only allow for 75% of the density or as a solo toon, you can only set your team size to 6 for that map. Something along those lines. It's exactly the nature of the grossly over the top impacts that makes the community feel like you're being despots.

[Coyotedancer]

1 hour ago, Stoked said:

Thanks for adding your data. Why have we gone the route of pointing to a single AE map (125) for all things AE? There are thousands of AE maps, some garnering developer support as well. That's part of the problem with this proposed change. You will affect every AE map, not just 125. If the REAL target of this effort is to do away with over-zealous farming, then don't allow +4/8 settings on the asteroid. Limit that map to only allow for 75% of the density or as a solo toon, you can only set your team size to 6 for that map. Something along those lines. It's exactly the nature of the grossly over the top impacts that makes the community feel like you're being despots.

 

That's why I didn't use the space map as my "average farm run" example... I spend more time in Atta's Cave or the Freak World sunken city, personally. But I suspect people pick that one because it's easy and quick to do a test run on.

 

The highway tunnel might be another good option for fast testing, since it's also fairly small.

 

ETA: IIRC, the highway tunnel has about the same number of groups as Harvey's Praetorian demon mission (The one on the Steel Canyon city block map-), they're just closer together which makes for faster flattening, as usual for a farming map.

 

 

 

Edited August 10, 2022 by Coyotedancer

[Coyotedancer]

Okay.... Apologies for the back-to-back posting here, but I did a little running around with my zen-mode fire farmer this morning and thought you guys could use the results. 

 

Ossuni (Claws/Fire Brute), solo at +4/x8 on Brigg's "Bloody Rainbow" space map...

 

Raw INF: 744.800 per minute

INF After Sale of Drops: 832,600 per minute

 

So, actually a little less than Flea's 1m per min mark when she's on her own.

 

That actually surprises me a little, since her clear times seem to be pretty average. Depending on how the groups gather, it takes her about 6-7 minutes to clear the map.

 

That's about half the time it took Ironhorse to clear a round in my earlier test with him on Humble's S/L version. The EBs account for some of that, but his slower killing speed in general (No Burn for instance, and not a lot in the way of damage procs in his build-) is most of the difference. 

 

Just for fun, I'm going to see how Suni does on Harvey's demon map next. She may be too specialized to do well in there, but I want to find out.... and more numbers are always more. 

[Bionic_Flea]

16 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

Okay.... Apologies for the back-to-back posting here . . .

I'll allow it!

 

I guessing that your data was on one of the Live servers and not Brainstorm.  In fact, I'll presume that for everyone's data and can state definitively so for mine.  But if anyone is using Brainstorm AE, their numbers might be reduced if the critters have not been upgraded. 

 

But that's a whole other can of worms.

[Ukase]

2 hours ago, Stoked said:

Thanks for adding your data. Why have we gone the route of pointing to a single AE map (125) for all things AE? There are thousands of AE maps, some garnering developer support as well. That's part of the problem with this proposed change. You will affect every AE map, not just 125. If the REAL target of this effort is to do away with over-zealous farming, then don't allow +4/8 settings on the asteroid. Limit that map to only allow for 75% of the density or as a solo toon, you can only set your team size to 6 for that map. Something along those lines. It's exactly the nature of the grossly over the top impacts that makes the community feel like you're being despots.

Just my two inf: 
The reason most point to 125 is because for me, it was simply the first one I ever heard of. Others have duplicated the same map, pretty much the same mobs but with different costumes. @Bionic_Fleaalmost hit on a stroke of genius, having the mobs rez after defeat, thinking we'd get double everything, but that wasn't the case. Killed 'em again for no gain of anything. But it was still a clever idea. If it had worked, we'd be talking about Flea's asteroid map, for sure. 

I think if the HC devs are really against afk farming - which we know GM_Jimmy expressed concerns about way back when, then all they really need to do is come out and say so. Most of us recognize we're guests here and play at their mercy. For free. I think in this case it isn't so much the afk farming, but the impact (which I've yet to detect) of farming emps, converting emps into reward merits, and then getting whatever folks get with those merits - converters most likely, but also boosters, maybe some folks needed catalysts quickly, or perhaps it's all those emp merits that's been flooding the AH with LotG 7.5% at less than 6M for the past month or so. 

As has been stated by me before, I don't think the AE changes themselves will stop afk farming much. Maybe a little. For a while. Someone like me - if I'm motivated (I'm currently not), I can spend a little time with mids and boost up AoE and range defense, and possibly decrease some recharge. It's an afk farmer after all. Instead of Hasten, I can go with physical perfection and increase my regen to better handle the extra incoming damage. 

Absolute worst case, I could just put my heal on auto, and let the blazing aura and quills do the damage. Not like I'd be in a hurry in an afk farm. Still, pretty sure I could drop assault, and go with melee hybrid for extra defense, and go with agility over musculature. Those little changes can add up. It's not like any of my characters are very far off in the first place. 

Or, I can resurrect my fire/spines tank in lieu of the spines/fire brute. Either way, the folks that like farming will keep doing it, although the required adjustment is just annoying. There was no harm being done from where I sit, and I'd like to think I'm fairly in touch with the market, if not the player base. 

******************************* The rest of this is more of a rant than anything else. Ya might want to skip it. *************************************

If it's to corral/encourage folks to team, rather than farm, forget about that. Too many of us just don't appreciate the personalities of too many of those who like to team. So many times I want to pull out my hair after beginning a task force and find I'm stuck with someone who is so clueless about what they are doing, they genuinely have no idea that they're clueless. 

That's not to say folks have to be a master of the game. But, when you do get your character to 40, you should know how to get to Kallista Wharf. There really is no excuse if you've ever taken a train before on blue side. Villains..I might cut them some slack, but they are villains and deserve some derision. And while I can see my way to understanding why a newer player wouldn't know, surely they must know that if I click on you and it shows me you're level 23, and somehow you got to be in the task force, that means you haven't trained up for 17 levels. It boggles my mind why any idiot would wait that long. 23 levels worth of slots and powers you don't have! Idiot! Now the rest of us have to carry your weak character. It just pisses me off when I run into idiots like that. And that one time I did a TF with SrMalloy's alt, and recognized the name from the forums. Someone else was leading, and it was a positron 1, I think. The league leader had a real life friend on the team, it turned out. The friend of the lead goes afk while in the map, mission completes, leaving someone impatient like me - who was patient for about 5 minutes, then I got testy. I was like, kick this douche. He's inconsiderate. I shouldn't have to wait for some idiot to go afk mid-tf for more than a couple of minutes. And then that 5 minutes turned into 10, then 20, then I think it was about 26 minutes later he came back. Turns out his mother made him do some chore. Damn kids. I get that it's not necessarily the kids idea to go afk, lest his mother beat him, but it still isn't cool. My life doesn't revolve around anyone else's. I refuse to be a slave and wait for people who don't have their act together. Dude was afk longer than it would have taken to finish the tf and finish the next one. Completely wasted my time. If I'd known how long he was going to be afk, I would have just violated my own rule and quit immediately. But, now I can bitch about it, so glad I stayed in.  

Now, some folks would tell me that things like that are going to occur in a pug from time to time. And I agree. But why should I or anyone else have to be at the mercy of these people? My time is just as important as anyone else's. It's damn rude to not be slotted. It's rude to go afk and not come back for 20 minutes. I get real life can happen, but most folks can control their lives to where this kind of thing wouldn't happen. They'd simply go out the mission door so as to not hold the rest of the tf up. But it probably never occurred to him. Moms can be scary when they want to be. 

I may come off as some grumpy, angry troll here on the forums, but in game, I go out of my way to be as courteous as I can be. I make sure I carry my weight in a team, at least to the best of my ability. Some guys are so fast getting to the boss, I admit - they're carrying me! It makes me uncomfortable, so I limit those experiences as well. I make doubly sure I have the best IOs for my build that I think I need. Other than those hard mode tfs, I rarely get defeated. Like very rarely. I'm fairly competent, if I do say so myself. I see no reason why everyone shouldn't be at least trying to make their character as good as it can be. If you lack the inf, I get it. I used to be poor. One of my first characters is on torch, a level 20-something scrapper. Still has SOs in it. I really should do something with that character..but I ain't feeling like regen/broadsword just yet. 

Damn, close a thread for a day, and I had all that bottled up! Sorry! 

[Coyotedancer]

38 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

I'll allow it!

 

I guessing that your data was on one of the Live servers and not Brainstorm.  In fact, I'll presume that for everyone's data and can state definitively so for mine.  But if anyone is using Brainstorm AE, their numbers might be reduced if the critters have not been upgraded. 

 

But that's a whole other can of worms.

 

 

Yep. The aggro changes will actually make farming on the big Freak World map easier. I'm honestly looking forward to it. 

 

Now, here's a bit more. I just did a fast test of Suni on Harvey's demon map. A timed 15 minute run. Her average there at +4/x8 solo was only 347,600 INF per for raw INF and 441,100 per minute when drops were sold. I expected it to be lower due to lower goon density and having a harder time pulling together multiple groups. What I DIDN'T expect was how much time Suni lost to bouncing on her butt!

 

I had no idea Harvey's demons were capable of that much Knockback! I've just never gone after them with a character who didn't have pretty substantial anti-KB before. It was just ludicrous how much time that poor Brute spent getting bounced around. She was on her butt at least once or twice per group.... And that seriously shows up in her returns on the map, even though she absolutely ate the mobs alive when she *wasn't* flopping around like a spikey Oranbegan trout.  

 

 

 

Edited August 10, 2022 by Coyotedancer

[Black Zot]

25 minutes ago, Ukase said:

The reason most point to 125 is because for me, it was simply the first one I ever heard of. Others have duplicated the same map, pretty much the same mobs but with different costumes. @Bionic_Fleaalmost hit on a stroke of genius, having the mobs rez after defeat, thinking we'd get double everything, but that wasn't the case. Killed 'em again for no gain of anything. But it was still a clever idea. If it had worked, we'd be talking about Flea's asteroid map, for sure. 

 

That works for non-AE enemies.  But stuff in the AE lost the double-drop potential as one of several direct anti-farming nerfs the AE suffered on live, around the same time as ambushes got gutted.  

 

Frankly the only reason AE can still function as a farming tool is sheer mob density on certain maps.

[lemming]

3 hours ago, Coyotedancer said:

I had no idea Harvey's demons were capable of that much Knockback! I've just never gone after them with a character who didn't have pretty substantial anti-KB before. It was just ludicrous how much time that poor Brute spent getting bounced around. She was on her butt at least once or twice per group.... And that seriously shows up in her returns on the map, even though she absolutely ate the mobs alive when she *wasn't* flopping around like a spikey Oranbegan trout. 

Probably worth popping into a base and get a KB protection from the empowerment station

[Coyotedancer]

2 hours ago, lemming said:

Probably worth popping into a base and get a KB protection from the empowerment station

 

Indeed. Going in there without any KB reduction was just slapstick-worthy. 😝

[America's Angel]

Saw a bunch of inaccurate numbers posted. Here's the current reward numbers per account as far as I'm aware:

 

Active Farming = 2.5 million inf/minute
AFK Farming (Live) = 0.56 million inf/minute
AFK Farming (Beta) = 0.84 million inf/minute

AFK Farming (All) = 0.84 million inf/minute
Tinpex = 1.0 million inf/minute

 

Not sure about marketers. Think they're anything from 5-15 million inf/minute. But it's been a while since I messed with any of that.

 

The above assumes one account. Doesn't factor in multiboxing.

Edited August 11, 2022 by America's Angel
AFK Farming on Live is largely the same as on Beta.

[Ukase]

16 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

Saw a bunch of inaccurate numbers posted. Here's the current reward numbers per account as far as I'm aware:

 

Active Farming = 2.5 million inf/minute
AFK Farming (Live) = 0.56 million inf/minute
AFK Farming (Beta) = 0.84 million inf/minute
Tinpex = 1.0 million inf/minute

 

Not sure about marketers. Think they're anything from 5-15 million inf/minute. But it's been a while since I messed with any of that.

 

The above assumes one account. Doesn't factor in multiboxing.

@America's AngelCan you elaborate on "bunch of inaccurate numbers"? 
Whose numbers are you deeming inaccurate? And how is it that you believe that your numbers are any more valid than theirs? Because it's unlikely all farm builds are the same, while the influence on a given map, if it's cleared would likely be the same total, assuming the number of mobs are the same, the time to clear that map will vary from farm character to character. So, there is no "X million inf/minute" is the answer. The answer will vary. In some cases by a lot, because in my tiny 3 asteroid map test sample, I didn't clear the maps. 

Your comment is throwing me off. Explain yourself, please. 

As for marketers, that varies with each marketer. Some folks like @Yomo will go for volume, but accept a smaller profit. Whereas me, I can't be bothered with any sale less than 3m. Some folks flip salvage. There's just too many niche players to come up with an average for a marketer, particularly when you consider a marketer will likely market with every character they play, with only a certain few set up to market certain things in certain niche areas. 

[MoonSheep]

51 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

Saw a bunch of inaccurate numbers posted. Here's the current reward numbers per account as far as I'm aware:

 

Active Farming = 2.5 million inf/minute
AFK Farming (Live) = 0.56 million inf/minute
AFK Farming (Beta) = 0.84 million inf/minute
Tinpex = 1.0 million inf/minute

 

Not sure about marketers. Think they're anything from 5-15 million inf/minute. But it's been a while since I messed with any of that.

 

The above assumes one account. Doesn't factor in multiboxing.

 

the multiboxing comment is a great consideration. i wonder what the figures look like for dual/triple boxing, whether it’s a simply those numbers x3 

 

as accounts are free and more accessible than on live, the ability to triple/quadbox is a lot easier

[America's Angel]

@UkaseI'm assuming optimal setup. A lot of the numbers in this thread are below that threshold.

 

@MoonSheepYep, you can just multiply the AFK numbers by how many accounts you have.

[Grouchybeast]

1 hour ago, MoonSheep said:

the multiboxing comment is a great consideration. i wonder what the figures look like for dual/triple boxing, whether it’s a simply those numbers x3 

 

AFAIK, loot drops are rolled with the same chance per kill regardless of party size and then assigned to a single character in the party, so they won't increase with more characters on the map. 

 

I'm unsure if the exact formula is known, but inf per kill falls as team size increases, but everyone in the gets that per kill amount.  So assuming all the inf is pooled at the end, multiboxing will result in more inf but not a straight multiple of the inf a solo character would have got for clearing the same map.

[America's Angel]

1 hour ago, Grouchybeast said:

 

AFAIK, loot drops are rolled with the same chance per kill regardless of party size and then assigned to a single character in the party, so they won't increase with more characters on the map. 

 

I'm unsure if the exact formula is known, but inf per kill falls as team size increases, but everyone in the gets that per kill amount.  So assuming all the inf is pooled at the end, multiboxing will result in more inf but not a straight multiple of the inf a solo character would have got for clearing the same map.

 

Actually, the way it works is that the more people you have on the team, the more rewards the mobs drop.

 

This is the multiplier:

 

So, if you're triple-boxing an active farm. That 2.5mil per minute becomes 3.75mil per minute. But as you are triple-boxing, you're probably clearing in 2 minutes. So it actually becomes closer to 4.35mil per minute.

 

However, if you're not clearing in 2 mins, then you're probably better off just using one active farmer, whilst having two AFK farmers on two separate map. Works out at 2.5 from the active, plus two lots of 0.86 from the AFKers, for a total of 4.18 mil per minute.

Edited August 11, 2022 by America's Angel

[ShardWarrior]

5 hours ago, America's Angel said:

Saw a bunch of inaccurate numbers posted. Here's the current reward numbers per account as far as I'm aware:

 

Active Farming = 2.5 million inf/minute
AFK Farming (Live) = 0.56 million inf/minute
AFK Farming (Beta) = 0.84 million inf/minute
Tinpex = 1.0 million inf/minute

 

Not sure about marketers. Think they're anything from 5-15 million inf/minute. But it's been a while since I messed with any of that.

 

 

Inaccurate how and defined by whom using what criteria?  It seems to me that quite clearly not everyone posting their results here are hitting these mysterious figures. 

[America's Angel]

35 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

 

Inaccurate how and defined by whom using what criteria?  It seems to me that quite clearly not everyone posting their results here are hitting these mysterious figures. 

 

Using the attached builds on Brainstorm on either map #23785 (active) or #23786 (AFK).

page 4 active farmer.mxd page 4 afk farmer.mxd

[ShardWarrior]

2 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

Using the attached builds on Brainstorm on either map #23785 (active) or #23786 (AFK).

 

And these are builds and maps everyone uses?  Or are other players using different builds and maps?  Seems to me these are finely tuned builds that not everyone will want or use.

[Ukase]

2 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

 

Using the attached builds on Brainstorm on either map #23785 (active) or #23786 (AFK).

page 4 active farmer.mxd 5.58 kB · 0 downloads page 4 afk farmer.mxd 5.7 kB · 0 downloads

Thing is - only a fraction of people are going to use those builds. My farmers were around before those builds existed; never saw a reason to change them because my farmers can handle life outside the farm, as they leveled up through content outside of AE. 

So, your numbers may be added, but to make this blanket statement that other numbers are errors and yours are accurate is ludicrous. It's fine for "in vitro", but this is "in vivo". 
My numbers are accurate for my farmers. Flea's are accurate for his, etc. 
Yours is just a single number to add to the total and divide by the total set of tests for each respective criteria. 

 

Additionally - your numbers coming from Brainstorm, not live. So they are useful, but everyone else's numbers are from where things are currently to actually determine what the advantage is, if there actually is one. 

[Top Gear]

Thank you everyone for making efforts to collect data.  I'm seeing a lot of "might be", "probably", and "should be". If you aren't going to be transparent and include how many people were on the map, what the team size and level settings were and your start and end figures, it's not really useful. Saying "these should be the numbers" without accompanying data isn't useful either.

 

Are there some metrics around just how many people are actually getting these "best in class" numbers? How many unique players have actually fully built with IO set toons that can get those numbers? How many people have turned off earning XP to earn more influence?

 

Let's also stop this nonsense about AFK farming. That was never part of the discussion until it became clear that the numbers for AE farming were only marginally better and only if you played #125 over and over. What metrics are there about how many people are playing #125 in AE versus the Carnie or FreakShow map? All of this is supposition and posturing to try justify a nerf to the rewards in AE without any clear indication that the emp merit conversion is even being widely used. 

 

Again if the real target of this change is AE because the rewards are so much better than anywhere else, why isn't EVERYONE doing it? Why are people focused more on marketeering or running the same TF over and over again? Why is there in fact such a great balance of people doing their own thing throughout the game? I can't help but to question the very premise upon which the change is being based because there are no metrics I've ever seen to substantiate it.

[Fire Chief]