The Pretty Good AE Debate

[ivanhedgehog]

5 hours ago, Ukase said:

Thing is - only a fraction of people are going to use those builds. My farmers were around before those builds existed; never saw a reason to change them because my farmers can handle life outside the farm, as they leveled up through content outside of AE. 

So, your numbers may be added, but to make this blanket statement that other numbers are errors and yours are accurate is ludicrous. It's fine for "in vitro", but this is "in vivo". 
My numbers are accurate for my farmers. Flea's are accurate for his, etc. 
Yours is just a single number to add to the total and divide by the total set of tests for each respective criteria. 

 

Additionally - your numbers coming from Brainstorm, not live. So they are useful, but everyone else's numbers are from where things are currently to actually determine what the advantage is, if there actually is one. 

It seems that not only have we abandoned balancing around so's(by some decision of who knows) but now a specific build? city of youmustplaythisway?

[ZemX]

33 minutes ago, Ukase said:

The proposed changes will likely go through.

 

Honest question since I don't AE farm... what changes?  I saw that the vet xp tihng was already reverted so what other change in the beta patch notes is affecting AE farming?

[Ruin Mage]

XP Boosters got fixed & Merit Conversion (Emp to Reward Merits) being gone. @ZemX

[America's Angel]

2 hours ago, Shadeknight said:

This means that the only thing going forward is a slightly slower leveling process for using boosters. I don't have the data to say how much slower, but its not some monumental decrease.

 

66% of what it used to. Negligible impact on powerleveling.

[Troo]

4 hours ago, Top Gear said:

complete hypocrites

 

4 hours ago, Top Gear said:

At least copy the entire sentence

 

I love it.

"Don't tell me how to play, BUT I'll tell you how to post" = classic.

[Neiska]

@ShardWarrior @Bionic_Flea @America's Angel

 

Okay, just did a test and here are my info and figures.

Map - Biggs Comicon S/L Asteroid

Characters - 3 Boxing MM - Robot/Electric, Robot/Time, and Robot/Kinetic

Time to clear - 3:44

Total net Inf gained - 8,285,670

8,285,670/3.44= 2,408,625 inf/Minute

Note - this is flat inf gain only, no drops/recipes were taken into account as it is random.

 

Dunno if this will help as it is 3 boxing, but here it is.

 

PS - the net Inf/Hour would be - 144,517,500, not taking drops/salvage into account.

 

 

Edited August 11, 2022 by Neiska
added inf/hour figure

[Ironblade]

22 hours ago, Ukase said:

I think if the HC devs are really against afk farming - which we know GM_Jimmy expressed concerns about way back when, then all they really need to do is come out and say so.

I speculate that they don't want to implement a rule that they have admitted they are unable to enforce.

[Bionic_Flea]

20 minutes ago, Neiska said:

8,285,670/3.44= 2,408,625 inf/Minute

Thanks.

 

Just to be sure, the 8,285,670 was for all 3 characters combined?  So a little over 800k inf/min average per character.  Or was each character making 2.4m inf/min?

[Bionic_Flea]

12 minutes ago, Ironblade said:

22 hours ago, Ukase said:

I think if the HC devs are really against afk farming - which we know GM_Jimmy expressed concerns about way back when, then all they really need to do is come out and say so.

 

I speculate that they don't want to implement a rule that they have admitted they are unable to enforce.

 

I appreciate the difficulty and manpower needed to enforce it.  But I agree with Ukase that they should declare the rule.  A large number will stop merely because it's announced as a rule.  I think Ukase would be in that group.  Others would continue but just at the edge of the rule, presumably that would be a reduction.  And a final group doesn't care what the rules are and will do whatever.  But eliminating the first two allows the team to focus on the last group.

[Ukase]

4 hours ago, scottocamp said:

 

I am at work so not entirely sure of my numbers - but it seems like a solo toon playing the Brigg's 125 first mission at 4x8 received roughly 7 million for clearing the map.  Just using random toons my clear times were in the 10 minute range.  To get a 2.5 million per minute return you would have to clear that map in less than 3 minutes solo.  Which seems rather amazing.  But the build AA posted would be about as good as it gets in achieving that I suppose.

 

That all said - what matters I think for the purposes of this discussion is looking at the spread between AE and regular content.   Presenting an AE number in isolation is somewhat meaningless.  What could an amazing build in AE accomplish compared to an amazing build in regular content?  The spread didn't seem so impactful to me personally.  But I'm clearly not playing with optimized toons.

Fair point. AA had an interesting method in determining this. Since America's Angel's numbers were based on optimal play, it makes sense to look at optimal play from those who run tfs and such. 

I know for a fact that a fairly decent speed run time for apex and tin mage are 10 minutes each. So, just taking the 80 merits, and making the exchange to converters, you can extrapolate from there on what the take home is. (as I did in a previous post)
Some choose to add the conversion time into the equation, and fair enough. 

The numbers (as expected) show the speeders will outearn an afk farmer. And they might out-earn 2 afk-farmers. I think it pulls even with 3. I'd have to scroll up and look at the numbers. 
The active farmer, I dunno. I see Angel America's numbers, and consider them to be an outlier, but it's fair to say 10 minutes for apex and 10 for tin mage are also outliers, so may as well try to compare apples to apples, figuratively speaking. 

The active farmer will out earn the speeder. 

I am of the opinion that all of this is irrelevant. HC devs are gonna do what they're gonna do. Not to say they won't see if we have a point, but I think they've been planning the change for some time based on information they have. For now, they're going with doing away with the emp to reward merit conversion, presumably because of these potential violators of exchanging cash for inf, as has been discussed previously. Or, it could be that, and not wanting someone like me to get free converters with emp merits. And while I'd rather be able to do that, they have their reasons, and it's free to play...so how pissed off should I really be? Not very. 

My biggest disappointment is in the player that frowns upon people who farm. I mean, really? Seriously? I fully understand how a new player, getting farmed up with little or no knowledge of the game can screw up a team mission or TF. I certainly understand that frustration and annoyance. But it's like punishing everyone for the actions of a few. (or even several or many) 
Most of us have got anywhere from 20 to 200 level 50's all decked out and t-4'd. We get tired of some of the lower level content (me, it's kind of the opposite. I'm super tired of Tina McIntyre and Maria Jenkins. I've been trying to get those accolades at level 30 or earlier so I can just go to red side and re-experience some of those arcs because I'm not nearly as bored with those yet. 
Now, when I say "punish", I'm referring to the players who look down on farming, not the HC devs. These snobs are just plain mean, some of them. And some want us to just leave the game so they don't have to hear us chiming in lfg. It's almost as if they're miserable, and won't feel better until they make everyone else miserable. Gee, thanks. Just what we all needed. 

Just two days ago, I had to verbally expose an idiot in lfg chat who literally told the lowbie looking for a spot in AE farm "Stay out of lfg. Go to AE and chat in local. This is for people looking to team up." 
It was just the height of condescension. If I'd been in front of that person, I would like to think I would have just slapped the taste out of their mouth for being such a tool. 
That's really just me posturing behind a keyboard, lol. I'm old enough to know better than to slap someone for saying something stupid. But I sure felt like it! 
 

 

[Neiska]

15 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Thanks.

 

Just to be sure, the 8,285,670 was for all 3 characters combined?  So a little over 800k inf/min average per character.  Or was each character making 2.4m inf/min?

 

Yes that was all 3 combined.

[scottocamp]

36 minutes ago, Neiska said:

@ShardWarrior @Bionic_Flea @America's Angel

 

Okay, just did a test and here are my info and figures.

Map - Biggs Comicon S/L Asteroid

Characters - 3 Boxing MM - Robot/Electric, Robot/Time, and Robot/Kinetic

Time to clear - 3:44

Total net Inf gained - 8,285,670

8,285,670/3.44= 2,408,625 inf/Minute

Note - this is flat inf gain only, no drops/recipes were taken into account as it is random.

 

Dunno if this will help as it is 3 boxing, but here it is.

 

PS - the net Inf/Hour would be - 144,517,500, not taking drops/salvage into account.

 

 

 

That seems completely consistent with what I was seeing playing as a solo toon on that map.  

 

[Marbing]

15 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

 

I appreciate the difficulty and manpower needed to enforce it.  But I agree with Ukase that they should declare the rule.  A large number will stop merely because it's announced as a rule.  I think Ukase would be in that group.  Others would continue but just at the edge of the rule, presumably that would be a reduction.  And a final group doesn't care what the rules are and will do whatever.  But eliminating the first two allows the team to focus on the last group.

Pshh rules are meant to be broken… 😎

 

 

But seriously I agree make it a rule.

 

 

Hypothetically, let’s say PI  Radios had their rewards increased to match that of AE Fire Farming step for step. Do we think that would increase or decrease the population of AE Fire Farming? For example: Do we think that would impact the rate at which /Fire brutes are created? Because I wager they vastly out populate everything else. If we don’t think anything would change, why not? And if we do, why?

 

EDIT: I will take it a step further and ask, what if we increased PI Radios to be MORE lucrative than AE Fire Farming? What would change then? If anything.

Edited August 11, 2022 by Marbing

[Ruin Mage]

It'd flip the target, probably, because PI radios try to select only Council which aren't that dangerous.

And if you made Council more dangerous, rinse and repeat this thread / the attack type change thread.

[Troo]

17 minutes ago, Marbing said:

Hypothetically, let’s say PI  Radios had their rewards increased to match that of AE Fire Farming step for step

 

c r e e p . . .

 

and there is a big issue, avoiding creep while not wanting to nerf punitively.

[Bionic_Flea]

10 minutes ago, Troo said:

c r e e p . . .

Radiohead or TLC?

[Frostbiter]

We can make the Carnies and Arachnos award 4x rewards then

[Troo]

4 minutes ago, Frostbiter said:

We can make the Carnies and Arachnos award 4x rewards then

 

a flexible reward system that could self adjust based on number of defeats would be ideal. it could keep the least run content as the highest rewards in an ever evolving landscape of challenges.

 

but we don't have that 😞

[Troo]

13 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Radiohead or TLC?

tough call. weirdo or cheater.. I just don't know.

[Frostbiter]

17 minutes ago, Troo said:

 

a flexible reward system that could self adjust based on number of defeats would be ideal. it could keep the least run content as the highest rewards in an ever evolving landscape of challenges.

 

but we don't have that 😞

 

That's actually an interesting idea. 4x was a joke but 1.5-2x for neglected content wouldn't be all bad. I know I kind of pigeon-hole myself into the same leveling stuff all the time. Atlas-> 5-10 Safeguard->Hollows-Faultline->Striga->Croata-PI. I think everyone needs pushed out of their comfort zones a little.

[Coyotedancer]

3 minutes ago, Frostbiter said:

. I think everyone needs pushed out of their comfort zones a little.

 

Serious question, here.... Why?

 

Why try to push people into doing something they prefer to avoid? We're playing a game, not working a job or studying for a test. Why do we need something that's purely done for recreation to "push people out of their comfort zone"? 

[Frostbiter]

4 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

 

Serious question, here.... Why?

 

Why try to push people into doing something they prefer to avoid? We're playing a game, not working a job or studying for a test. Why do we need something that's purely done for recreation to "push people out of their comfort zone"? 

 

It's not a real push. Merely incentive to run content that doesn't get run a lot. But if you're asking me why I personally believe that the answer is

[Coyotedancer]

So your answer is a non-answer.... Okay. 

[Marbing]

22 minutes ago, Troo said:

c r e e p . . .

 

and there is a big issue, avoiding creep while not wanting to nerf punitively.

If people are playing the content they want, not because of the rewards, then the impression is that not much would change from what I have read in this and other threads.

Not that I am disagreeing with you. Creep is definitely an outcome of such a change, good point. Thank you for answering!

 

4 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

Why try to push people into doing something they prefer to avoid?

I agree not to intentionally push players out of content they enjoy.

On the other hand pretty much every change entices players to change their play slightly as a side effect. Like my question about increasing PI radios to greater than AE farming, wouldn’t that in affect be “forcing” people to play something else? It’s sort of the inverse of the concern for lowering AE rewards so I would assume the answer would be, yes. Because, the point is that if the devs wanted to make AE rewards less than other content they could do that by: 1) Removing Rewards from AE, OR 2) Raising rewards in other places to pass AE output, OR 3) Both. No matter which way you slice it, though, the outcome is the same: AE would be less desired rewards wise than it is now compared to what it was before. Which, as others have said, is essentially the devs “forcing” you to play something other than AE.

 

“Nerfs” are just the opposite of “buffs” and often have similar outcomes in the way it affects the behavior of players.

 

 

[Frostbiter]

10 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

So your answer is a non-answer.... Okay. 

 

You are not entitled to anything from me. I left that post as is because it humored me to do so and because I had company and couldn't fully explain right then.

 

As far as my actual answer goes, I think that just needs to happen more everywhere. It's human nature to both stick to the familiar and comfortable and to fall into a routine. Combine that with risk vs reward and you get all sorts of odd behaviors like playing the lottery. Thus other activities outside of the routine needs encouraged.