Sins of the Devs are visited upon the players

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, Number Six said:

That would be a good point if this were a single player game or if there was no player economy and the only source of items was NPC vendors. However, there is an economy, and at it's heart it's a competitive economy. Even despite all the various things that have been done to act as price controls, supply boosters, and release valves (salvage seeding, recipe bucketing, merit vendors, etc), if there's only 100 Shiny McThingBobs in existence and everybody wants a Shiny McThingBob, then guess what -- the 100 people with the most Inf are going to get their Shiny McThingBobs first.

 

Not only is there an economy, but the economy is apparently the ultimate consideration for balance in the game. So if there is something that people want, but can't easily afford, the solution is to rein in farming or nerf merit conversions, etc. Which doesn't make any sense because the fatcats with the most money are making that largess on the market. 

 

1 hour ago, Number Six said:

The end result of that is that people who don't want to farm feel pressured into thinking they have to at least set up an AFK farm because that's the only way they can possibly get enough Inf to get the Shiny McThingBobs. They have to compete with people who do farm and make more Inf faster than they do. That in turn adds more Inf to the economy and perpetuates the cycle. Your farming does affect everyone else.

 

The casual players who aren't particularly interested in running tfs or playing the market are increasingly pressured into running content they don't like or becoming more effective at farming. Or caving and starting to sell converters or whatever it is that people do to trivially make large sums of cash in this game. It's not that my or anyone else's farming affects everyone else. It's that the devs apparently want to keep the marketeers happy and use that as a yardstick in figuring out what they want to permit other people to do. 

 

[Yomo Kimyata]

22 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

 

Not only is there an economy, but the economy is apparently the ultimate consideration for balance in the game. So if there is something that people want, but can't easily afford, the solution is to rein in farming or nerf merit conversions, etc. Which doesn't make any sense because the fatcats with the most money are making that largess on the market. 

 

 

 

[Neiska]

28 minutes ago, Number Six said:

Pop quiz: Where did that 3 billion come from?

 

First, I would like to say that I will word my reply as respectfully and tactfully as possible. I am thankful for everything all of you on the staff have done, the work put into the game, all on your own time. Even if its not things I personally will enjoy, because hey, someone here will enjoy it right? However, I do have some concerns.

 

1. Part of the magic that is CoH is the fact that I can fully progress a character all on my own at a reasonable pace. Other games such as Wow, diablo, and so on, a player must raid to fully gear a character, or hunt endless runs for that .005% drop chance. But here, that isn't needed. I can find my own things, craft my own things, trade, or buy off the auction house. CoH is very solo-friendly. And many of the changes seem to be changing away from that. I hasten to add they haven't made it impossible, only more difficult or time consuming, so I do worry that it will eventually slide into something akin of "purple recipe's only drop in trials" or something similar, eventually falling into the design of so many other games out there. Which to me, is not a good thing at all whatsoever.

 

2. Much of the content that has come out, has been aimed at a specific part of the community. Namely the high end people, or certain ATs and/or classes. But for all this talk of the new hard modes, it is only for a minor part of the game. Anything over a certain difficulty is impossible for many ATs, no matter what the build is, what your incarnates are, or how much INF you throw at them. Off the top of my head, there have been several conversations ingame, here on the forums, as well as the discord about the state of Masterminds, Peacebringers, Warshades, Sentinels, etc. Simply put they cannot take part in the new content, its only for Tankers, Brutes (perfectly built), Defenders, Corruptors, Blasters, Dominators, and Controllers. I actually got told by a group putting together a team that they would take anything else than a Mastermind, even though my mastermind is full T4, built to support (electric affinity), has 400 vet levels, and is purpled to the gills. I would ask that by what context is that balance, or "play your way", or encouraging/discouraging certain groups of people?

 

3. In line with #2, the PVP crowd I don't think have even gotten so much as a glance by any development. I am not a pvper myself, but i can sympathize with those that enjoy that play.

 

Essentially, many of these changes feel directed at a certain scope of player. And if you are not that kind of player, IE A raider, or someone who likes to solo, or someone who likes certain classes, then the message feels to be "screw you." I hasten to add no one on the staff has actually said that, but that's certainly what it feels like to many of us. Particularly when there is a lot of talk about an issue and we don't even get so much of a blip that says "we are aware and considering options" or even a "working as intended" post would go a long way to quell peoples worries. Because in some parts of the community, they feel pretty neglected or forgotten.

 

My thoughts about it. Again, I wish to re-integrate that I don't mean to come off as disrespectful in any sort of way. Only concerned.

 

And if you see this, thank you very much for your time.

 

Best wishes

[ivanhedgehog]

44 minutes ago, Number Six said:

 

Pop quiz: Where did that 3 billion come from?

each prismatic selling at 100 million times 30 on a Dr A tf

 

plus merits etc

[lemming]

4 hours ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Hmmm . . . I hadn't thought about that.  Are you telling me that AE Farmers can get these just by . . . farming in AE?  *gasp!*

Personally, hoping it's a false theory.   I noted someone saying it was a way, but would like confirmation either way.

[Ukase]

27 minutes ago, ivanhedgehog said:

each prismatic selling at 100 million times 30 on a Dr A tf

 

plus merits etc

What our esteemed #6 meant was when the HMTF team sold some/all of their prismatics on the AH, and got 180 million for one of them...who bought it? 

I was a little more patient and put in bids for 20M, and get them filled in a few days. And it was because I had it laying around. I will never pay 180M for anything, lol. That's just crazy. 

 

I still have more bids in for 10M, and well, maybe they'll fill. Maybe not. No sweat either way. 

I need to re-read 6's post, because, well, I'm a skim/scan kind of person. 

[Number Six]

24 minutes ago, Neiska said:

First, I would like to say that I will word my reply as respectfully and tactfully as possible. I am thankful for everything all of you on the staff have done, the work put into the game, all on your own time. Even if its not things I personally will enjoy, because hey, someone here will enjoy it right? However, I do have some concerns.

 

You really don't have to do that. I welcome criticism so long as it's civil. Preferably constructive, but even cries of 'I don't like that' do have some value.

 

26 minutes ago, Neiska said:

so I do worry that it will eventually slide into something akin of "purple recipe's only drop in trials" or something similar, eventually falling into the design of so many other games out there.

 

I would hope that the evidence of

• Not having done anything with purples one way or the other, and...
• Hard mode rewards specifically being purely cosmetic items that do not increase power level

Would weigh in favor of that not being the case.

 

28 minutes ago, Neiska said:

Much of the content that has come out, has been aimed at a specific part of the community.

 

While we're scratching an itch that has been requested by a segment of the community that feels the game doesn't offer them any challenges, there's a lot of new content has not been tailored for them. Freakloc arcs, Vigilante/Rogue arcs. Sister Valeria is Incarnate arc but the goal is for it to be in line with Dark Astoria, Belladonna & Number Six. Even ASF goes out of its way to offer a normal difficulty mode as well as the 1* mode with all the extra mechanics but none of the the stat changes that require decked out characters.

 

Yes, ITF+ is in the spotlight because it had an advanced difficulty mode added this patch, but I don't think it's fair to focus entirely on that.

 

36 minutes ago, Neiska said:

I actually got told by a group putting together a team that they would take anything else than a Mastermind, even though my mastermind is full T4, built to support (electric affinity),

 

That's a separate issue and while I normally don't comment on ongoing development as timetables may shift, we are aware that Masterminds need some attention, especially in high level content, and they are on the short list for some adjustments.

[Ukase]

1 hour ago, Number Six said:

The end result of that is that people who don't want to farm feel pressured into thinking they have to at least set up an AFK farm because that's the only way they can possibly get enough Inf to get the Shiny McThingBobs. They have to compete with people who do farm and make more Inf faster than they do. That in turn adds more Inf to the economy and perpetuates the cycle. Your farming does affect everyone else.

Making the Shiny McThingBobs available for purchase on the AH was perhaps the wrong decision. Perhaps, introducing Shiny McThingBobs as a currency instead of using Reward Merits was an error. 

I certainly don't know, even with hindsight. I do know reward merits aren't earned in farming, although farming can lead to obtaining them by using the influence to buy super/winter packs. Still no idea why merits are in the packs, but I'm not complaining. I'm too obtuse to consider all the ramifications about this or that with absolute certainty, despite my best efforts. 
 

I mean - why was this new currency introduced? What did everyone think would happen? 
If it is true that my farming affects everyone else, then wouldn't my teaming and running content also affect everyone? 

The influence generated by farming is a pittance compared to the influence generated from the market, is it not? There are farmers who loathe marketing, and marketers who loathe farming. And some folks loathe both. 

This end result of people who don't want to farm feeling pressured into doing so to get their hands on the resources to acquire the Shiny McThingBobs through the AH is a bad end result, sure. But the end result of people who don't want to team up for hard mode content feeling like they have to do so to get their hands on the Shiny McThingBobs is also a bad end result, isn't it? Maybe introducing the Shiny McThingBobs wasn't thought out clearly enough. 

Or maybe, it's just a case of not being able to please all the people all the time, etc. 

I still remain pleased to be able to play. I could have done without the aggro changes, but I can adapt. 
And because you say afk farming affects everyone else, I'll stop. 

 

In fact, that's really all you guys had to do, was just ask us to stop afk-farming. Most will probably respect that request. 

[Number Six]

7 minutes ago, Ukase said:

The influence generated by farming is a pittance compared to the influence generated from the market, is it not? There are farmers who loathe marketing, and marketers who loathe farming. And some folks loathe both. 

 

The market doesn't generate any influence. At all.

 

It destroys influence because transaction fees delete inf from the system.

 

You can personally gain influence from playing the market, but that influence always comes from other players and is not new inf entering the system. If everyone got all their inf from marketeering and never played the rest of the game, there would be no influence at all.

 

A single player server is a good experiment (thought experiment or otherwise) that can be very revealing.

[UltraAlt]

2 hours ago, Number Six said:

Pop quiz: Where did that 3 billion come from?

 

From thin air.

The NPCs don't actually create it when they are arrested/defeated/killed.

The game generates the influence/infamy/information on the spot and adds it to the character getting credit for the arrest/defeat/kill.

 

I'm more concerned with ....

 

 

[UltraAlt]

1 hour ago, CR Americas Angel said:

Yes we have.

 

The PVP is always there, but most players overlook the best PVP in CoH ... the Market/Auction House.

 

[ I would ask how the update has affected the PVP community, but that's for another thread in the https://forums.homecomingservers.com/forum/28-the-arena-pvp/ ]

[The_Warpact]

Overall every game out there has a form of farming or grind involved to get what you want or the items you need to lvl, enhance, etc.

 

It's part of the things that drives us to play. The need for it.

 

I farm and I play the market, but, I make so many alts and take care of my VGmates needs that there is balance to it all. 

 

The new ITF+ will go the route of the ASF, people will learn how to speed it and it will be yesterday's news. Have patience my younglings balance will come to the force.

[Ukase]

1 hour ago, Number Six said:

 

The market doesn't generate any influence. At all.

 

It destroys influence because transaction fees delete inf from the system.

 

You can personally gain influence from playing the market, but that influence always comes from other players and is not new inf entering the system. If everyone got all their inf from marketeering and never played the rest of the game, there would be no influence at all.

 

A single player server is a good experiment (thought experiment or otherwise) that can be very revealing.

While that's true - my point, (which I obviously didn't express well at all) had more to do with the competition for the Shiny McThingBobs. It ultimately doesn't matter if the inf is generated by farming, or accumulated by marketing. It's still being accumulated. 
The competition for the Shiny McThingBobs is still there on the AH, regardless of where the inf comes from, right? 

 

I do accept the rest of your logic trail, and appreciate the perspective. It's far too easy for me to only consider my own experiences and my own perspective. 
 

[Grouchybeast]

2 hours ago, Neiska said:

Essentially, many of these changes feel directed at a certain scope of player.

 

You're right, Page 4 gave us a new optional hardmode for the ITF.

 

It also gave us a new Incarnate story arc and repeatable missions, two new powersets, a ton of costume creator content including sheathable weapons, new base items, new emotes, local chat customization and dice rolling, two new RP locations, PVP instant 50s, advanced customization for AE enemies, new AE content (maps, powersets and mobs), and a whole bunch of miscellaneous adjustments and fixes.

 

So I'd say that they're directing their changes at a player who enjoys solo and team content, or who likes to make costumes and customize their characters, or who does RP, or enjoys trying new powersets, or who PVPs, or who writes AE missions.

[UltraAlt]

1 hour ago, Number Six said:

You can personally gain influence from playing the market, but that influence always comes from other players and is not new inf entering the system.

 

I don't think this is true.

The market is seeded and the market transforms any level of crafted enhancement to an attuned enhancement. Both of these add influence to the market by adding product and upgrading product.

 

1 hour ago, Number Six said:

If everyone got all their inf from marketeering and never played the rest of the game, there would be no influence at all.

 

You can't post anything to the market without influence so the starter influence comes from somewhere.

 

 

But, yeah, the influence mainly comes from playing the content.

 

There are some aspects of CoH that is more about farming influence and XP instead of actually playing the game.

 

I'm not claiming that I don't Market PVP, because I do ... but I know full well that the original point of the Market was not the PVP aspect.

Edited September 6, 2022 by UltraAlt

[Neiska]

8 minutes ago, Grouchybeast said:

 

You're right, Page 4 gave us a new optional hardmode for the ITF.

 

It also gave us a new Incarnate story arc and repeatable missions, two new powersets, a ton of costume creator content including sheathable weapons, new base items, new emotes, local chat customization and dice rolling, two new RP locations, PVP instant 50s, advanced customization for AE enemies, new AE content (maps, powersets and mobs), and a whole bunch of miscellaneous adjustments and fixes.

 

So I'd say that they're directing their changes at a player who enjoys solo and team content, or who likes to make costumes and customize their characters, or who does RP, or enjoys trying new powersets, or who PVPs, or who writes AE missions.

 

I think you may have taken my words out of context or missed my point. But I will clarify. For the majority of content, all content, its "play whatever you like, you can make anything work" which is what I love. Then in incarnate content, that begins to change where it is more difficult for some AT's than others. Again, I am fine with this, as balancing will be difficult in that kind of play.

 

But hardmode is going back to the wow/other game design of "Tank, Healers, DPS" trinity. Which by and large I hope we all agree was a good thing CoH did not adopt or require in its game design. And I worry that continued changes will only expand this concept, until the game is no longer "play your way" as even in this current iteration, 5-6 ATs are already shunned. Granted it is new content and I do hope they address how not all ATs just aren't viable, but are completely unplayable in this new content, but I also worry that it will change the standard of "play your way." I already see posts in LFG daily for - "4 star team starting. LF3M. 1 Tank 2 Support wanted" and I would argue this is not a good direction to be going in.

 

Hope that clears things up. 

[Ruin Mage]

Hard Mode is its own beast of requiring near proper team compositions. It is not indicative of it coming to regular content.

Here's the thing about Hard Modes: If you really want to, you CAN do it with all Masterminds. You will have a hell of a time but you can do it. Want to do it with all PBs? Sure, go right ahead. You'll just hit a brick wall on 3/4 stars or take forever. This can be said for any AT. Why? Because the team is unbalanced and is lacking at least one (or more) of the crucial aspects to team content. You can definitely go all in on blasters, but now you're lacking someone to tank and you're lacking the -heal/-regen/-res/-def (usually) etc. This is just the nature of the various difficulties.

Things get made much much easier if you actively put effort into the team building part of the game. Want to not have half the team wipe when an AV goes Goblin Mode? You need a tanker, brute, or even a Scrapper depending on sets. Want to be able to stop enemies from dogpiling your booty? Dominators and controllers are right there. Want to buff your friends and absolutely obliterate your enemy's stats? Defenders, corruptors, controllers, and MMs are right there. In Hard Mode, you are asking for trouble (in varying senses) trying to approach it like a +4/x8 Council Radio.

If you want to put on the snooze button and glide through Council at +4/x8? Great! That's not on the radar to be touched or tweaked in meaningful ways - aggro changes aside. Want to solo AVs in Maria's arc? Have at it! Want to solo Yin? Go give it a shot and have fun! Optional content isn't really going to bleed into the rest of the game - despite what doomsayers may believe or think. Personally I want more promotion of AT diversity, but this isn't my server. If the only form we ever get that is through Hard Modes? Cool beans.

Also the holy trinity isn't a bad thing but that's a discussion for another time.

Edited September 6, 2022 by Shadeknight

[Neiska]

3 minutes ago, Shadeknight said:

Here's the thing about Hard Modes: If you really want to, you CAN do it with all Masterminds. 

 

I find this very ironic coming from someone who was on the team when I joined and it was said "we don't want MMs." (At least I believe it was you ShadeKnight.) But I have run with you once before on Everlasting, on my Crabber. It was a pretty good run too, just got a little dicy in the Rom fight. 

 

But for MM's it isn't just "difficult." Its pretty much dark souls level for any MM, regardless of build. Clever engagement, tactics, or builds will not save you. The only time I was successful on a two star, was when people were pretty much cycling barrier every 30 seconds. And even then, some pets still got 1 shot. There has been ongoing talks in the discord, forums, and in game about this. It isn't a "l2p" or "gitgud" issue, and it's hardly unique to MMs. Also as you may or may not have seen for yourself, some ATs/players are being flat out turned away for their class. People want nice, clean, flawless runs. The majority of random's don't want to roll the dice on a sentinel, or a mastermind, or whatever. And they don't want to "carry" someone either.

 

Until they fix things for those classes I've shelved my MMs at least as far as hardmodes go. Been focusing on my crabber because at least some teams still take them. They aren't top pick for sure, but they aren't bottom either. But at least they aren't excluded, at least not yet.

[Astralock]

FWIW, I know that all Blasters, all Masterminds, and all Warshades hard mode ASFs (at either 3* or 4*), have been done.  I wouldn't recommend it, but if you have the right builds and the right players, it can be and has been done.  You're just much, much better off with a variety in your team as that is what the content has been designed for.

[Grouchybeast]

22 minutes ago, Neiska said:

But hardmode is going back to the wow/other game design of "Tank, Healers, DPS" trinity. Which by and large I hope we all agree was a good thing CoH did not adopt or require in its game design. And I worry that continued changes will only expand this concept, until the game is no longer "play your way" as even in this current iteration, 5-6 ATs are already shunned. Granted it is new content and I do hope they address how not all ATs just aren't viable, but are completely unplayable in this new content, but I also worry that it will change the standard of "play your way." I already see posts in LFG daily for - "4 star team starting. LF3M. 1 Tank 2 Support wanted" and I would argue this is not a good direction to be going in.

 

Before Incarnate powers trivialised some of the old high-level content, I used to see people with specific team composition requests for MO runs.  I think that's a fair comparison for the new hard mode TFs.  The standard difficulty versions are still there.  There are even, in fact, the less-demanding one- and two-star hard mode settings.  I don't think it's unreasonable to set aside a tiny corner of the game for people who might like to have to think harder about team composition and tactics, especially when all that mission content is available to everyone else anyway, they just need to turn down the difficulty.  And that, frankly, has always been the case.

[Neiska]

2 minutes ago, Astralock said:

FWIW, I know that all Blasters, all Masterminds, and all Warshades hard mode ASFs (at either 3* or 4*), have been done.  I wouldn't recommend it, but if you have the right builds and the right players, it can be and has been done.  You're just much, much better off with a variety in your team as that is what the content has been designed for.

 

[Neiska]

2 minutes ago, Grouchybeast said:

Before Incarnate powers trivialised some of the old high-level content, -

 

There is a difference between trivializing content, and trivializing classes. It isn't a matter of "turn down the difficulty." Personally I consider +2/8 as the "goal" and anything beyond that as a bonus/newgame+/extra mode, because nearly any build could do +2/8 with simple IO investment. It was a good benchmark. Now I enjoy playing on max difficulty myself, but I had already considered that the "hardmode" for some builds and setups.

 

But there is making hard content, and then there is making content that discourages including certain playstyles, ATs, and so on. Now I am not expecting them to make it so a merc/empath MM can finish a 4 star, but they can certainly make a few tweaks so it isn't so "do or die" on 3-4 star difficulty too, which it currently is.

 

But I do agree, people SHOULD have their niches and corners. So why is it then that the "we need nosebleed levels of difficulty" win out here, when other niches that have been asked for don't get their "niches," and when even other "niches" are penalized/changed/nerfed?

 

For example, lets compare 4 star hardmode to AE farming - the farmers said "don't like it, then don't do it" and that was deemed unreasonable, and farming was changed. But now the 4 stars are going "don't like it, don't do it. And don't bring X/Y/Z AT's either, or just turn down the difficulty" and that's acceptable? Seems a bit paradoxical to me, that.

[Astralock]

9 minutes ago, Neiska said:

 

 

 

Trust me, it's been done.  Masterminds can do 4* ASF just fine.  It's the hard mode ITF Masterminds really struggle with.  If anyone tells you that a Mastermind can't do a hard mode ASF (even at 4*), well... to be frank, he or she has no clue of what he or she is talking about.

[Neiska]

Just now, Astralock said:

 

 

Trust me, it's been done.  Masterminds can do 4* ASF just fine.  It's the hard mode ITF Masterminds really struggle with.  If anyone tells you that a Mastermind can't do a hard mode ASF (even at 4*), well... to be frank, he or she has no clue of what he or she is talking about.

 

First, its the ITF I am mainly referring to yes.

 

But Trust you? No, I don't think I shall, thank you. Particularly with things like this - 

 

Pretty much all of the big names in the MM sub-community are saying the same things as I am here.

[Ruin Mage]

19 minutes ago, Neiska said:

I find this very ironic coming from someone who was on the team when I joined and it was said "we don't want MMs."

On that day I was annoyed with Group Fly, ehehe.