Sins of the Devs are visited upon the players

[seebs]

4 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

 

If if something is on the market (seeded) and I buy it, resell it, and turn a profit - it quite certainly did add the influence to the market.[/quote]

It didn't add influence to the *game*, though. When you buy it, all the inf you spend buying it is deleted. When you sell it, the consignment fee (what, like 5% maybe?) is deleted. The inf you get was created by someone doing an activity that creates inf, like selling things to vendors, or defeating enemies.

 

4 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

My point isn't about how much influence players have, but the inherent influence added to the market by seeding and market self-catalyzing enhancements.

Some players, maybe many, can't figure out how to leverage that inherent influence out of the system.

That's not influence "added to the market". That's influence moved to the market from wherever it was actually generated from. The total influence in play is reduced by all market transactions, always.

[ivanhedgehog]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

It's a Super Simulator. It's an MMORPG. It's a Single Player Super Game. There are actual farm simulators out there. AE isn't that. There's no driving tractors or harvesters or herding cows. There's nothing different in AE and the non-AE game. It's all just killing (or arresting if you're a pansy) enemies. Everything else is window dressing.

Superman grew up on a farm. He was PL'd by the kents.

Edited September 7, 2022 by ivanhedgehog
old age

[Ukase]

6 hours ago, battlewraith said:

 

All I want from YOU and the people like you is to stfu with notion that "the easy path" is the solution to every problem. I don't want your money and I've paid for everything I've got, just like anyone else. The fact that I don't want to rely on the market doesn't mean I'm willing to put nothing into it. It just means that I still have a vision where this game isn't about the market. You like to do that, knock yourself out Ritchie Rich. But as long as we can still voice opinions, I'm not the only one around that never found that aspect of gameplay appealing and wants to keep it as optional as possible--not something that people are expected to do to any large degree.

So, I understand that you don't appreciate the market/farming methods to get what you want out of the game. I also, I think, grasp that you do it when you need to, in order to get what you need. 

I've no issue with options. But how would you go about resolving this issue you have? Make everything free? like on Brainstorm, the test server? 
I've thought about that. I have characters that have somehow managed to be on Brainstorm since page 3, without a wipe. I could have been playing there easily, I suppose. No need to market or farm, there. Maybe that's why my characters seem so much faster when using super speed! I mean, it's super fast. Like 4 seconds faster on the ski slope, without buffs. 

What would you suggest? I don't think making things free is the path. If they take away the carrots, the donkeys will not move! There must be a worthwhile goal in order to keep folks motivated. And the goal can't be too simple, or the motivation drops. And it can't be too hard, or people will give up. 

There's a balance there somewhere, but no matter where that point is, there will be some that give up because it's too hard/tedious/boring/adjective of your choice, and some that quit because it's too easy/dull/adjective of your choice. 

I think the HC Devs have done a darn good job keeping the Richie Rich's like me in check. The price of IOs continue to slightly lower over time, at least the ones I tend to sell have certainly dropped in price. That means my stack of inf is relatively larger, and so is everyone else's. We all have the ability to buy more with our influence than ever before. I'd say that's a good thing for folks that want to avoid marketing and farming!  It's only going to get better from here. 

[Ukase]

1 hour ago, Nostromo21 said:

 

Same here. I was there in beta, played through to the bitter end. As a mostly solo carebear, I think the pace on Homecoming is good, slowing as I approach 40 with my Ill/Dark troller (been away a few months). And I've never maxed out a hero, prob due to my chronic alt-o-holism he he! I think I got my ice & fire blaster Kevin Ator back in the day to 42, which was my highest. Unlike you, I loved SWTOR, but again mostly as a solo experience. Same with LOTRO, TSW/SWL, GW2, etc.

 

Btw, there are some very simple and legit 'tricks' to getting millions & millions of Inf very quickly, just look up the utoob vids ;). Just doing the exploration achievement with a new toon in Atlas, and then delete, rinse, repeat, will net you 3-5mill inf easily on AH. Certainly takes a lot of the grind out of getting very expensive (set) IOs on the AH. You def don't want to hit a power wall when levelling as I know how much that can kill the fun, especially if you are forced to group with others just for basic progression, bleh. After all, hell is other people, never more so than in a mmo! 😉

Oh my. It never occurred to me to make an alt specifically for the 5 reward merits from the explorations and then get converters, sell and repeat. Yeesh, that sounds more tedious than farming. Still, clever. 
But more clever is to actually use the converters on crafted IOs. Faster, too. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

4 minutes ago, Ukase said:

There's a balance there somewhere, but no matter where that point is, there will be some that give up because it's too hard/tedious/boring/adjective of your choice, and some that quit because it's too easy/dull/adjective of your choice. 

 

And this is precisely why one playstyle shouldn't be given preferential treatment over another. Screw over the farmers enough, they'll quit playing. Screw over the soloists enough and they'll quit playing. Screw over the hard mode lovers enough and they'll quit playing.

 

Perhaps the ONLY goal should be to avoid screwing anyone over.

 

Edit: And, yes, I'm fully aware that the pursuit of powerset/AT balance will ALSO screw over the overpowered. It's a no-win situation. So in the end, the devs will make the game how they want it and will have a certain player population because of the choices they make.

Edited September 7, 2022 by Bill Z Bubba

[UltraAlt]

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

I was playing before the market was a thing. Which makes this notion of the market as the essential thing pretty stupid.

 

I started playing before issue 2 dropped, so if you know what it was like playing then, you shouldn't be complaining.

 

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

I think if you are at all invested in the game, it's worth giving negative feedback if things go south. And I think in a way it becomes more important when people in the community start pointing to the door rather than actually listening or acknowledging dissent. 

 

So you are grumbling because you actually like the game, but just don't want to have to grind.

I would suggest making a new character and leveling it the old fashion way and try to team as you go.

Don't stress so much about being uber.

 

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

Usually when I make a new character, I run around Atlas for a few levels killing things. I might do a couple DFBs. Then I'll Pl it in stages. Get some levels. Then do missions for a level or two. PL again. Do more missions. Kind of depends on the character. Don't generally PL straight from 1-50. Not sure what this is relevant to anyway.

 

sure. Of course not.

Why would it be relevant to see if you are PL'ing to the end and trying to slot all purples as soon as you get there only to find you don't have enough influence to do so?

[Ukase]

5 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

And this is precisely why one playstyle shouldn't be given preferential treatment over another. Screw over the farmers enough, they'll quit playing. Screw over the soloists enough and they'll quit playing. Screw over the hard mode lovers enough and they'll quit playing.

 

Perhaps the ONLY goal should be to avoid screwing anyone over.

 

Edit: And, yes, I'm fully aware that the pursuit of powerset/AT balance will ALSO screw over the overpowered. It's a no-win situation. So in the end, the devs will make the game how they want it and will have a certain player population because of the choices they make.

I don't see the HC devs giving preferential treatment over any other - but I'm looking at the changes as a whole since they opened the doors. I think they'll cycle through and do something for most of the "types" we have. 

[UltraAlt]

50 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

1 hour ago, The_Warpact said:

Spoken like a true Council member!

Expand  

[UltraAlt]

42 minutes ago, seebs said:

That's influence moved to the market from wherever it was actually generated from.

 

42 minutes ago, seebs said:

That's not influence "added to the market".

 

 

What is the difference between "moved to the market" and "added to the market" exactly?

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

if this game isn’t your speed, maybe it isn’t for you.  I’m not telling you that, I’m just mentioning an option.  There’s no shame in that.  You don’t have to take my advice.  It’s good advice, but if you’d rather shake the cage and try to get the HC team to make your life easier, up to you son.

I think if people have any common sense they don't try to direct others away from playing the game. It's not a good look for the forums. YMMV.

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, UltraAlt said:

I started playing before issue 2 dropped, so if you know what it was like playing then, you shouldn't be complaining.

 

This is pure boomer logic. When I was a child there were no cell phones. Therefore, you shouldn't complain about your wifi connection. It's that level of reasoning.

1 hour ago, UltraAlt said:

Don't stress so much about being uber.

I don't stress about being uber. And I have a pretty good understanding of how I like to play the game, given the time I have available. That doesn't involve lowbie teaming.

 

1 hour ago, UltraAlt said:

sure. Of course not.

It's not. And that isn't an expectation I would have in leveling an alt.

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

So, I understand that you don't appreciate the market/farming methods to get what you want out of the game. I also, I think, grasp that you do it when you need to, in order to get what you need. 

I've no issue with options. But how would you go about resolving this issue you have? Make everything free? like on Brainstorm, the test server? 

As I stated earlier, I'm not looking for some change in the structure of the game. The changes they made in this update are fucking irritating, but I'll still play the same way. It will just take more grinding or something to achieve the same result. It won't affect serious farmers or people that make a lot of money on the market or those who run a lot of TFs on a regular basis. The changes affect people like me--casual players who solo a lot, farm sometimes, and run certain trials or tfs occasionally. I'm drawing attention to my perspective because I don't want it to get any worse, that's it. 

 

 

 

[UltraAlt]

28 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

This is pure boomer logic

 

Okay. I've had enough.

Good day, sir.

[Bionic_Flea]

1 hour ago, GM Widower said:

Don't worry, we also have no idea what the Council of Thirteen is.

LIES!!

 

I have pictures of the council meeting.

 

[Xiddo]

6 hours ago, Songseven said:

i bet plenty of people haven't read this thread!

Lucky them - poor us

[ForeverLaxx]

6 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

but that brings me to a question ... do you AE doorsit to 50?

I see you think all roads still lead to Power Leveling as "the big bad."

[MoonSheep]

7 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

if this game isn’t your speed, maybe it isn’t for you.  I’m not telling you that, I’m just mentioning an option.  There’s no shame in that.  You don’t have to take my advice.  It’s good advice, but if you’d rather shake the cage and try to get the HC team to make your life easier, up to you son.

 

edited for clarity:

 

i think you have a very genuine point - city of heroes and MMORPGs aren't for everyone and that’s okay

 

as i mentioned in the notorious AE thread, mmorpgs are largely about the journey, progression and investment. people seeking an insta win or pick-up-and-play games may find that games designed for that playstyle better fit their desired outcomes 

 

like you say, that’s not saying people should leave the game, if people enjoy how they play then that’s all that matters.

 

however, individuals who are edge cases or play in a niche way (for an mmorpg) may want to recognise that over time, the game will have design priorities which may not shine a light on their particular style - however they are still very welcome here

 

Edited September 7, 2022 by MoonSheep

[Ignatz the Insane]

At this point in the game, unless you're a new player, you should be aware how trivially easy it is to accumulate Influence.  Sure farming, be even easier is simple marketing.  There are a bunch of stories/anecdotes like: I played an Archery/Tactical Arrow character to the low 30s and easily and casually made 1 billion Influence in a week of playing.. Two on my Saturday.  It's not hard nor terribly time consuming.   Yea, I get it, it's not for everyone.  But I have little sympathy for those that simply refuse to take advantage of such an easy path to financial independence.

Edited September 7, 2022 by Ignatz the Insane

[Ukase]

6 hours ago, battlewraith said:

As I stated earlier, I'm not looking for some change in the structure of the game. The changes they made in this update are fucking irritating, but I'll still play the same way. It will just take more grinding or something to achieve the same result. It won't affect serious farmers or people that make a lot of money on the market or those who run a lot of TFs on a regular basis. The changes affect people like me--casual players who solo a lot, farm sometimes, and run certain trials or tfs occasionally. I'm drawing attention to my perspective because I don't want it to get any worse, that's it. 

 

 

 

I am someone who solos a lot. I would farm sometimes. Prior to page 3, I farmed routinely, met a goal, and last December, when the winter pack sale ended, I pretty much stopped farming, except for emp merits for the new 50's. I still run iTrials and such with them, but it's when I'm comfortable with the leader for badges, not just the incarnate loot. 

So, because of my success in marketing and farming, I may not be in your shoes, but I can relate to how you play, as you describe it. 
This is what I notice: 
My farmers have a rougher time of things. I can still go afk, but I have to be more careful where I leave the character. 
My soloing has seen nothing different. It may as well be the same game, with no changes, other than me getting pissed about doing a weekly with a sub-50 character and not getting my promised 2 prismatic aether particles - and that's when they were selling for 180M each! I feel cheated, I do. Costume unlocks are not supposed to only be available at 50, so that made no sense, not getting them. But, I digress. 
While it's true the patch did nothing for me, other than give another story arc for an incarnate character to run, it's not like these HC Devs have forgotten the game exists. I do see a trend of them encouraging team play. They seem to think this is some kind of team game. I've never looked at it as such, but the most amusement I've had in game has been on teams. And, regrettably, all the negative experiences I've had in game have been on teams. 

I can hardly blame the development choices on that, though. 

[Ukase]

7 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

 

 

 

What is the difference between "moved to the market" and "added to the market" exactly?

The difference, in this context, is when a farmer is killing mobs, they earn inf and xp with each kill. That inf is added into the game's economy. It comes from thin air, kind of like our congress just adding zeroes to the available budget. 

When a marketer makes influence - he/she is really decreasing the value of the economy, because of the AH fees. This is why I have always marketed my drops when I farmed. That, and it seemed prudent to me to do so. Make 4 million inf in mob defeats, craft the 5 recipes I get - that's 2.5M in crafting costs, roughly. Convert the crafted IOs, list them for 2.7M, then, collect the 15M in sales. While doing so, I pay 1.5M in AH fees. So, the inf earned farming is pretty much a wash. The 13.5M inf earned from the results of that farming is a plus for me, but that influence came from other players, not the game's automatic reward system. 
The marketer is reducing the size of the economy. The farmer is increasing it. 

In context of competing for the Shiny McThingBobs that our esteemed #6 mentions, it's still competition for those items. The source of the inf is not important in context. At least, I can't see how it is. But, I am known for being obtuse and can miss things more easily than I'd like. 

[GastlyGibus]

Just going to offer my $0.02 on the general topic of this thread. 

 

I understand the OPs concerns. I even agree, to an extent. It's a little disheartening to see the game made so easy and trivialized the way it has been. Seeing a Blaster, ostensibly the "weak" AT, soloing the ITF at +4/x8 seems really broken to me. I do miss the days when teams for that kind of content were required. So I get it, I really do. 

 

That being said, though, the biggest thing to understand is that, as some have already said, this game is not a commercial product anymore. Notice how we call the folks who run the show here "GMs" and not "developers." That's because they're not paid staff. They aren't paid to do this, they aren't clocking in to work on this game like regular developers, getting paid money to tweak and balance and maximize profits for the game. They're unpaid volunteers, working on the game in their free time, on top of everything else they have going on in their lives. It really is a marvel that we get even half the stuff we do in updates.

 

The second thing, and arguably more important point, is that the playerbase here is significantly different from typical, commercial MMOs making money. Most folks here are older, typically around 35+ years old. Statistically speaking, that means most folks here are married, they have kids, some even have grandkids, they have jobs, they have family and responsibilities to take care of, and this game is something from their younger days that they like to play in their spare time, even though they don't have the free time they used to. We're not all kids on summer break with endless free time and no responsibilities.

 

The reason why other commercial MMOs make their games long and difficult is because they make more money the longer you play the game, and the folks that play those games typically are younger people who aren't married and have no kids to feed and duties to uphold. This game is not like that. It's not making money, and most of us are simply older and don't have the time to spend grinding for maxed out gear and incarnates like the old days. I'd bet that if you did hit the reset button here and made it as hard as it was before, you'd lose significantly more players, as most folks would say "I don't have time for this" and leave.

 

Now, does that mean we should just do nothing and never attempt to fix anything? Of course not. Obviously there are balance issues that should be addressed (such as Masterminds being left in the dust, as the OP mentioned), and I do think maybe things shouldn't be quite so easy. But at the same time, you have to consider the unique challenges that come with addressing those issues combined with the facts I stated before with the playerbase and the lack of profit and paid staff.

[battlewraith]

4 hours ago, MoonSheep said:

 

edited for clarity:

 

i think you have a very genuine point - city of heroes and MMORPGs aren't for everyone and that’s okay

 

as i mentioned in the notorious AE thread, mmorpgs are largely about the journey, progression and investment. people seeking an insta win or pick-up-and-play games may find that games designed for that playstyle better fit their desired outcomes 

 

like you say, that’s not saying people should leave the game, if people enjoy how they play then that’s all that matters.

 

however, individuals who are edge cases or play in a niche way (for an mmorpg) may want to recognise that over time, the game will have design priorities which may not shine a light on their particular style - however they are still very welcome here

 

LOL. This is like an SNL skit.

 

"Bob, I know you've been living here for close to 20 years. But this is a certain kind of town, with a certain kind of people. Maybe it's just not right for your heathen ways, and that's okay! 

There's lot's of other places that might fit with your sinful lifestyle. But if you do decide to stay, you are perfectly welcome in our cult."

 

Word to the wise in general:

 

If people start defining what the game is--they are forwarding an agenda. 

If people start suggesting that maybe leaving is a better option than expressing your opinions here--they are high on something. And no, they are not hanging out with Bill smoking the good stuff and living their best life.

[battlewraith]

2 hours ago, Ignatz the Insane said:

At this point in the game, unless you're a new player, you should be aware how trivially easy it is to accumulate Influence.  Sure farming, be even easier is simple marketing.  There are a bunch of stories/anecdotes like: I played an Archery/Tactical Arrow character to the low 30s and easily and casually made 1 billion Influence in a week of playing.. Two on my Saturday.  It's not hard nor terribly time consuming.   Yea, I get it, it's not for everyone.  But I have little sympathy for those that simply refuse to take advantage of such an easy path to financial independence.

 

That's fine. You do you. 

My issue is this:

 

You have three general ways of earning income: running content, farming, and playing the market. Players in the game are doing at least one of these things and most are doing a combination. Farming has been nerfed more than once and the gist of the rationale seems to be that these devs don't want players to feel that they have to farm in order to keep up. Okay, but if that's the idea why is it then alright to assume that everyone will be playing the market in order to keep up (and if they don't, fuck them)? I can't roll a level 30 farmer and make billions over the course of a week. I can't also run normal content with a lvl 30 and make billions over the course of a week. So doesn't that indicate some sort of imbalance with respect to how rewarding this activity is? 

 

Based on their statements, I think the devs are not viewing these three approaches as wealth acquiring strategies. They seem to be viewing them as earning (farming, content, etc.) and redistribution/destruction (market). And because the market is regarded differently, it's absolutely fine that people can trivially acquire large sums of money through marketing. But then what happened to the initial complaint against farming--that players would feel they needed to do this. Playing the market to generate wealth is akin to using steroids in sports. If it becomes the case that most players are using them, players who don't will be at a severe disadvantage. A lot of players not only seem to acknowledge this, but strongly embrace it as well.

 

"I got no sympathy for you man, just take the drugs."

 

 

[The_Warpact]

1 hour ago, GastlyGibus said:

OP

WTF

[Grouchybeast]

23 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

They seem to be viewing them as earning (farming, content, etc.) and redistribution/destruction (market). And because the market is regarded differently, it's absolutely fine that people can trivially acquire large sums of money through marketing. But then what happened to the initial complaint against farming--that players would feel they needed to do this. Playing the market to generate wealth is akin to using steroids in sports. If it becomes the case that most players are using them, players who don't will be at a severe disadvantage. A lot of players not only seem to acknowledge this, but strongly embrace it as well.

 

You know what, I agree.  It's way too easy to make inf on the HC markets.  Cheap converters have trivialized the whole thing, it's too accessible, and IOs are way too cheap.  There's no reason why a LotG+rech should be buyable for 5 million.  I'm with @Yomo Kimyata on this.  Let's put the merit to converter ratio back to 10:1, and make converters account bound.  People should have to work for their inf on the market just like they do in AE or playing other content.