Those darn Tier 9 armor powers

[Voltor]

You know the ones, Invul, Elect, Energy, Super Reflexes.

 

Back on live, PB light form was revamped, the crash was mitigated somewhat and you could now make the power perma and have it carry over to your alternate forms. 

 

Then there is Willpower: Strength of Will    2 minute duration,  5 minute recharge and recharge cannot be enhanced. 

 

Surely, especially now that we have the advanced settings for ITF/Aeon that it is time to look at the Electric, Invul, Energy and S.R Tier 9 armor powers and revamp them to either PB lightform level or else Strength of Will level. 

 

These revamped powers wouldn't necessarily be an automatic win but I imagine having them a bit more functional would be nice.

 

For PVP/Arena have the powers revert to their original settings.

[FUBARczar]

Truth, and I would imagine that, fixing these T9's doesn't need to be over complicated or over thought.  Also don't forget about Ninjitsu. 

 

In the catalog of T9's already provides a fair variety to choose from.  

 

What's more, why not make a decision tree/fork like is done already with some sets and AT's?  VEATs, Sentinel's SR, etc.  We don't even have to completely scrap the old.  I would enjoy seeing a choice given to Ice Armor Tankers for instance to choose between Icy Bastion and Hibernate  

 

Anyhow maybe this could get a nap rolling on ideas/discussion.  Current variety of T9's (besides hard crashes) include 

 

Rez 

Dark & Fire 

 

Intangible 

Ice and Stone (Geode)

 

+Regen

Bio - +Absorb, Regen, & Recovery,  (foe) -Dmg 

Ice - +Resist, Regen & Recovery 

 

+Resist (w/o hard crash)

Radiation - +Resist, Recovery & DMG 

SD - +Resist, Recovery & HP 

WP - +Resist & Recovery 

 

+Def & Resist 

Regen - +Defense, Resist & Recovery

Stone (Granite) - +Defense & Resist, -Dmg, rech, & speed, 

 

Ideas: 

Electric - a T9 closest to Bio's that adds Insulation (ie Absorb) & +Regen 

 

Energy Aura - a +Def version of SD's T9 granting +Defense, HP, and DDR

 

Invulnerability - I think it would be fitting & interesting to have a T9 for Invuln that added +DDR, Resist  and Recovery that functions similar to SD & WP.

 

Ninjitsu - make it a +Defense version of Radiation's T9, +Def & DMG. 

 

Super Reflexes - a fitting T9 could reflect heightened abilities add a smaller than currently exists +Defense buff with added +Rech and movement.  

 

[Voltor]

I like your ideas, and thanks for reminding me of the ninjitsu set as I knew I was forgetting something.

 

Still, it seems to me that the simplest solution is to basically copy/paste the code/mechanics for either Strength of Will or Peacebringer Lightform into the powers. 

 

I just tested the Power Surge power from elect armor on my electric tank's alternate build. Not slotted but does have the 4 accolades to boost health/stamina.  Upon power crash, his stamina went to ZERO and health to about 10%.   I could make a build so that recharge time is reduced to the point of having only 60 seconds after crash to trigger the power again, but during those 60 seconds you need to pop insps like they are Pez and hope teammates can buff you and heal you.

 

Not worth taking the power.

[FUBARczar]

At least for me hard crash powers are an easy pass...  They are very unappealing and add little to no value.

 

The only tempting one is EAs with the HP boost.  

 

[RogerWilco]

I have no clue what this discussion is about.

[FUBARczar]

6 hours ago, RogerWilco said:

I have no clue what this discussion is about.

No need to understand, just comply

[Black Zot]

The T9s will NEVER be worth taking so long as there's a crash involved.  No power in ANY game is strong enough to justify a crash, end of discussion.

 

Ditch the crash, then you can talk about balancing the power so it's worth something.

[FUBARczar]

But really, it is about suggesting improvements for the hard crash temporary buffs found in defensive power sets as the last power that is unlocked in those sets.

[Voltor]

Best solution that I can think of is to basically copy/paste either strength of will or PB light form, or even Rad armor's Meltdown power into the other Tier 9 powers.

 

 

[FUBARczar]

That's what I was looking to mostly do with my suggestions.  Remove the crash by ..

 

Elec Armor could get a direct port of Bio's T9., Set to a different animation

 

Energy Aura would be the same as it is with a little less +defense, but on the same timer scheme as  WP/SD 

 

Invulnerability could a copy of EA's without the +HP 

 

Ninjitsu could get a port of Radiation's T9 

 

SR could be the same as it is with a little less +Def but add +recharge and dry to a static timer.

[TheZag]

I dont think making them perma is the way to go unless they get some drawbacks as well.  T9 armors were perma back in the day and it made for some very boring gameplay.  With so much survival packed into 1 power,  its possible to ignore most of the other survival powers,  turning 1 skippable power in a set into 5 or more skippable ones.

 

I do agree that T9 armors are mostly useless as they stand right now though.  With set bonuses and ease of access to set enhancements,  its been possible to nearly max out defense and resistances without the use of the T9.  Why click a T9 that basically does nothing for survival and just makes you die after a few minutes when it crashes?

 

But how do you make it useful without making it overpowered?  Granite nerfs your damage, recharge, and speed in exchange for a perma (toggle) T9 armor.  Other crashless T9s have a fixed recharge that is longer than the duration and cannot be reduced. 

 

The T9s that crash are from the game era when we had to speed boost the entire team individually every 2 minutes and couldnt even join the team in the first place if speed boost wasnt 4 slotted for endurance recovery.  Team missions took 30 minutes and accidently pulling a second group meant a team wipe.  The crash was less of a problem back then when it would happen when your team was recovering between pulls.  Todays pace of constant pulls isnt very compatible with the old design of T9s with a crash.

 

For me,  the T9 represents a skippable power and the ability to choose something else that i want.  I think without a major redesign,  thats all the T9 armors will be for quite awhile longer.

 

 

 

[Greycat]

Going to say I'm on the flip side of crashes. I wish we had *more* stuff that would give a power boost - but come with a cost, like the crash (or the -health Energy Transfer came with.)

 

That said, they *have to be worth the cost,* too, and that's the part that really comes into question for players (not to mention gets thrown for a loop when you bring Incarnates into the picture. For instance, I was fine with ancient Blaster nukes that had an END crash, but they also didn't have the target limit they'd be saddled with - defeating a giant mob of enemies wiping you out, energy wise, for a while? Makes sense... at least for a blaster, as opposed to the 'annoy a group of enemies' at Defender levels.) But you couldn't bring that back *now* with everyone throwing Judgements left and right with no cost.)

 

T9s were worth the cost before, now... ehhhhhh...

 

(Edit: And yes, I know I'm generally in a minority when it comes to the "Crashes are appropriate if it's worth it" crowd. *shrug* Always have been, even with the nukes.)

Edited September 15, 2022 by Greycat

[Rudra]

I'm actually in agreement with @Greycat on the crashes. Having a super-ultra-deluxe power that saves the day and clinches your victory/survival? Is definitely worth a crash. The problem as I see it though? Even before incarnate stuff? The T9s weren't that. I'd pop my enhanced T9 nuke on a Blaster and be lucky to drop the minions swarming me, let alone the lieutenants. Sure, I was probably enhancing them wrong, but I would routinely have 3-4 damage SOs in them and still be surrounded. (IOs didn't exist then.) And the armor crashes? If I was in a position where I needed the T9? It would fail while I'm still trying to clear out the support mobs on the AV ripping my face off while I'm trying to buy breathing space for my friends to rez themselves.

 

Strictly my opinion, and I probably slotted wrong, but the T9s until they introduced Willpower were too underwhelming for the associated crash. (That said, when the mobs popped their T9 armors? I'd curse, and rant, and scream at how unkillable they became....)

[electric_emu]

16 minutes ago, Greycat said:

Going to say I'm on the flip side of crashes. I wish we had *more* stuff that would give a power boost - but come with a cost, like the crash (or the -health Energy Transfer came with.)

 

That said, they *have to be worth the cost,* too, and that's the part that really comes into question for players (not to mention gets thrown for a loop when you bring Incarnates into the picture. For instance, I was fine with ancient Blaster nukes that had an END crash, but they also didn't have the target limit they'd be saddled with - defeating a giant mob of enemies wiping you out, energy wise, for a while? Makes sense... at least for a blaster, as opposed to the 'annoy a group of enemies' at Defender levels.) But you couldn't bring that back *now* with everyone throwing Judgements left and right with no cost.)

 

T9s were worth the cost before, now... ehhhhhh...

 

(Edit: And yes, I know I'm generally in a minority when it comes to the "Crashes are appropriate if it's worth it" crowd. *shrug* Always have been, even with the nukes.)

 

I agree, but it's hard to pin down just what level of power boost is appropriate to warrant a crash with an armor set.  Your examples of Blaster nukes is a good one, a target-uncapped Inferno is totally worth a crash imo (we're just going to ignore Judgment).

 

But armors?  So you get a minute or two of effective immortality.  Survivability is easy to come by, relatively speaking. If you show me an Invulnerability character that "needs" to pop Unstoppable I'll show you a bad build and even worse player.  Yes, even assuming we're "balanced around SOs."  

 

So if you're gonna keep a crash what makes it worth it?  I'd say damage.  It's a bit antithetical to an armor set, but I'd totally use Unstoppable or whatever with a crash if it made me a wrecking ball (even if the durability aspect were scaled back a bit).  Kind of like Rage from Super Strength, but turned up to 11.  That is worth being dead if it runs out in the middle of a group of enemies, I think. 

[Rudra]

7 minutes ago, electric_emu said:

 

I agree, but it's hard to pin down just what level of power boost is appropriate to warrant a crash with an armor set.  Your examples of Blaster nukes is a good one, a target-uncapped Inferno is totally worth a crash imo (we're just going to ignore Judgment).

 

But armors?  So you get a minute or two of effective immortality.  Survivability is easy to come by, relatively speaking. If you show me an Invulnerability character that "needs" to pop Unstoppable I'll show you a bad build and even worse player.  Yes, even assuming we're "balanced around SOs."  

 

So if you're gonna keep a crash what makes it worth it?  I'd say damage.  It's a bit antithetical to an armor set, but I'd totally use Unstoppable or whatever with a crash if it made me a wrecking ball (even if the durability aspect were scaled back a bit).  Kind of like Rage from Super Strength, but turned up to 11.  That is worth being dead if it runs out in the middle of a group of enemies, I think. 

It's antithetical to the armor sets' purpose... ... but I like it. It goes against every stance I have of power preservation... ... ... but I like it. As long as the already provided abilities are retained, even if reduced to make up for the damage boost.

 

... I hate myself for liking this idea, but I do like it.

 

Edit: I do disagree with the proposed magnitude of damage boost though. Keep it sufficiently small that it does not step on the fact we are talking armor sets here.

Edited September 15, 2022 by Rudra

[Greycat]

24 minutes ago, electric_emu said:

So if you're gonna keep a crash what makes it worth it?  I'd say damage.  It's a bit antithetical to an armor set, but I'd totally use Unstoppable or whatever with a crash if it made me a wrecking ball (even if the durability aspect were scaled back a bit).  Kind of like Rage from Super Strength, but turned up to 11.  That is worth being dead if it runs out in the middle of a group of enemies, I think. 

 

That's kind of what I see crashing T9s as. It seems a lot of people hate "situational" powers (and in an age of IOs, it's kind of hard to come up with a situation that's also fair to others...) and want to use everything, all the time, perma if possible (*shudders.*)

 

But to me, something that crashes is something you're only going to want to use once in a while. The crash representing (as it's usually described, paraphrased) having to reach down and give *everything* to overcome the hardest challenges and burn yourself out for a while as a result. The "little something" you keep in your back pocket for when you absolutely, positively need it.  The "Meh, he's some guy with a sword, we've wiped the floor with the rest of the team and he's slowing down, we can take him,s ure he's a little tough but OMG WTF WHY IS HE GLOWING WHY IS THE ROOM BURNING" moment.

 

(So, yeah. "Worth it" not just being numeric. ;) )

[PeregrineFalcon]

I don't mind the Tier 9's as is, but I do think that they could stand some revision.

 

I'd change them to be like Strength of Will, 2 minute duration and immune to recharge enhancement. I'd also change them so that they offer the opposite of what the set typically offers. This creates a layered defense and makes them actually worth using.

 

So, for example, SR's Elude would give 60% damage resistance to everything, instead of defense. Electric Armor's Power Surge would give 30% Defense and a zillion points of DDR so that the defense won't just get debuffed within seconds. You get the idea.

[The_Warpact]

I never take them specifically because of the crashes. If you're battling an AV and fortune decides to suddenly not favor you or you need that little extra to survive on a bad pull. Then popping a T9 should be a rarity, give it a 600 sec rech with 60 sec duration, no way to change the rech and if you do a crash let it be minor.

 

Remember if you're popping this it means it's dire circumstances you don't need a draconian crash in the middle of an important battle. 

 

Yes, survivability has gotten better or builds but, also remember not everyone knows how to build correctly and that T9 might be the thing they need to help them. 

 

 

Edited September 16, 2022 by The_Warpact
Spelling mistakes...as usual

[FUBARczar]

17 hours ago, TheZag said:

I dont think making them perma is the way to go unless they get some drawbacks as well.  T9 armors were perma back in the day and it made for some very boring gameplay.  With so much survival packed into 1 power,  its possible to ignore most of the other survival powers,  turning 1 skippable power in a set into 5 or more skippable ones.

 

I do agree that T9 armors are mostly useless as they stand right now though.  With set bonuses and ease of access to set enhancements,  its been possible to nearly max out defense and resistances without the use of the T9.  Why click a T9 that basically does nothing for survival and just makes you die after a few minutes when it crashes?

 

But how do you make it useful without making it overpowered?  Granite nerfs your damage, recharge, and speed in exchange for a perma (toggle) T9 armor.  Other crashless T9s have a fixed recharge that is longer than the duration and cannot be reduced. 

 

The T9s that crash are from the game era when we had to speed boost the entire team individually every 2 minutes and couldnt even join the team in the first place if speed boost wasnt 4 slotted for endurance recovery.  Team missions took 30 minutes and accidently pulling a second group meant a team wipe.  The crash was less of a problem back then when it would happen when your team was recovering between pulls.  Todays pace of constant pulls isnt very compatible with the old design of T9s with a crash.

 

For me,  the T9 represents a skippable power and the ability to choose something else that i want.  I think without a major redesign,  thats all the T9 armors will be for quite awhile longer.

 

 

 

No one is suggesting Perma.  They would not be Perma.  Like SD and WP are on a set timer, can't shorten the recharge.  From the other sets that have good T9's that accept+recharge, the  recharge is so long that making them Perma is impossible. 

 

The aim is something useful, without the huge godmode bonus or the associated crash.

[FUBARczar]

14 hours ago, Rudra said:

I'm actually in agreement with @Greycat on the crashes. Having a super-ultra-deluxe power that saves the day and clinches your victory/survival? Is definitely worth a crash. The problem as I see it though? Even before incarnate stuff? The T9s weren't that. I'd pop my enhanced T9 nuke on a Blaster and be lucky to drop the minions swarming me, let alone the lieutenants. Sure, I was probably enhancing them wrong, but I would routinely have 3-4 damage SOs in them and still be surrounded. (IOs didn't exist then.) And the armor crashes? If I was in a position where I needed the T9? It would fail while I'm still trying to clear out the support mobs on the AV ripping my face off while I'm trying to buy breathing space for my friends to rez themselves.

 

Strictly my opinion, and I probably slotted wrong, but the T9s until they introduced Willpower were too underwhelming for the associated crash. (That said, when the mobs popped their T9 armors? I'd curse, and rant, and scream at how unkillable they became....)

The great thing is we could have a decision tree, the old ones don't even have to be discarded.   Players could have an either/or option.   

 

Right now there is only one T9 that might be worth the crash, and that's Energy Aura's T9.  The resist ones...are totally not worth it.

[TheZag]

I heard the choice of 2 different powers in sentinel super reflexes was a nightmare to code and that they wouldnt do it again.  Of course things can change,  but i wouldnt count on that as a viable option at this time.

 

Im thinking at character creation would be the place to choose armor set legacy or armor set revamped.  It would allow those that want the current armor to keep it and give room for changes that would completely change some powers and invalidate everyones build without breaking anyones build.

 

[Voltor]

But perhaps they can try the path system from the VEATS on which Tier 9 armor to choose? 

 

Energy Aura T9 drains you endurance when it crashes, so have some blues in your inspiration tray, or else the phasing temp power from patrolling Warburg or from the Stealth pool.

 Activate them right before the crash so that you can hopefully be intangible long enough to recover.

 

Or else just run 🙂

[Voltor]

16 hours ago, FUBARczar said:

No one is suggesting Perma.  They would not be Perma.  Like SD and WP are on a set timer, can't shorten the recharge.  From the other sets that have good T9's that accept+recharge, the  recharge is so long that making them Perma is impossible. 

 

The aim is something useful, without the huge godmode bonus or the associated crash.

 

Best you can do with the other T9's is quasi-perma.  I've made builds that get the recharge time down so much that after the crash you have only 60 seconds to wait for recharge to be complete.   But that is a dangerous 60 seconds, not unlike the old weakness THOR used to have where if he wasn't holding his hammer for 60 seconds he''d revert to his mortal form.

[golstat2003]

On 9/15/2022 at 5:02 PM, Rudra said:

It's antithetical to the armor sets' purpose... ... but I like it. It goes against every stance I have of power preservation... ... ... but I like it. As long as the already provided abilities are retained, even if reduced to make up for the damage boost.

 

... I hate myself for liking this idea, but I do like it.

 

Edit: I do disagree with the proposed magnitude of damage boost though. Keep it sufficiently small that it does not step on the fact we are talking armor sets here.

 

Ehhhh if it's not that high, then to me again it's pointless with the crash.

 

I would keep the armor aspect, keep the crash, but reduce how long it lasts and have it turn it up to 11 as others said.

[Voltor]

On 9/15/2022 at 4:28 PM, Greycat said:

Going to say I'm on the flip side of crashes. I wish we had *more* stuff that would give a power boost - but come with a cost, like the crash (or the -health Energy Transfer came with.)

 

That said, they *have to be worth the cost,* too, and that's the part that really comes into question for players (not to mention gets thrown for a loop when you bring Incarnates into the picture. For instance, I was fine with ancient Blaster nukes that had an END crash, but they also didn't have the target limit they'd be saddled with - defeating a giant mob of enemies wiping you out, energy wise, for a while? Makes sense... at least for a blaster, as opposed to the 'annoy a group of enemies' at Defender levels.) But you couldn't bring that back *now* with everyone throwing Judgements left and right with no cost.)

 

T9s were worth the cost before, now... ehhhhhh...

 

(Edit: And yes, I know I'm generally in a minority when it comes to the "Crashes are appropriate if it's worth it" crowd. *shrug* Always have been, even with the nukes.)

 

I just realized what the power crash on the old Tier 9 powers reminded me of.  Activate the power and you get about 3 minutes of power and then crash and likely get defeated.........just like when Ultraman's color timer/warning light stops blinking and goes out.