hard mode

[WitchofDread]

Which troller combos would really shine in hard mode? Or is it more down to the team comp? 

 

I've not participated in any myself yet but i have read that there is some confusion resistance?

[Ringo]

Illusion, of course, because Taunt is Taunt (Phantom Army) and Spooky puts out good -to hit in addition to Fear.  Probably paired with an active Buff/Debuff set as your other powers won't be as critical, leaving you time to focus on your secondary

 

Earrh has strong controls and doesn't have to enter melee.  Plenty of -def powers is a boon.  The Knockdown probably won't be as effective but the -to hit should help.  Grabbing power boost to up those stun times could be key.

 

Fire brings damage in Bonfire and Hotfeet, plus a bit of -perception in Smoke to control aggro.

 

Dark has -to hit in its entire set ranging from -7% to -15% which is a nice addition

 

Symphony should be a mix of good control and damage, but I haven't played it yet.

 

Grav is a ??? in how to leverage it for HM in my book.

 

Plant, Ice, and Mind all have cornerstone Confuse powers plus Ice wants to be in melee.  Not saying you can't or shouldn't bring these on Hard Mode, but you may have to work a bit harder to min/max how you play those sets

 

 

[Ringo]

That said, I have only been on 2 star Aeon and 2 star ITF.  There may be situations/mechanics on the 3-4 star difficulties that make some sets fare worse or shine brighter

[Astralock]

4 hours ago, WitchofDread said:

Which troller combos would really shine in hard mode? Or is it more down to the team comp? 

 

I've not participated in any myself yet but i have read that there is some confusion resistance?

Unfortunately, on 3* and 4* hard modes, Controllers are mostly seen as a liability due to their low damage… all except Illusion/Darkness Affinity.

 

Why?  Because Phantom Army can be used as an off-tank, and Darkness Affinity is very good and only available on Controllers.  Fade and Soul Absorption are great.

[Ceejer]

You'll want Ill/Dark. Fade has DDR. Howling Twilight is great for standing the team back up. 

Edited September 26, 2022 by Ceejer
Spelling, what else.

[WitchofDread]

Guess I'm continuing with my ill/dark then! Thanks all.

[Sir Myshkin]

4 hours ago, Astralock said:

Unfortunately, on 3* and 4* hard modes, Controllers are mostly seen as a liability due to their low damage…

 

I wouldn't hold much water with this cup. There's already been quite a few prolific posts about successful runs completed with Controllers on board, and even non-Illusion to boot.

 

12 hours ago, WitchofDread said:

Which troller combos would really shine in hard mode? Or is it more down to the team comp?

 

The most beneficial to bring into these are going to be supportive aspects: Defense, Resistance, DDR, and direct impact on HP capping the team to widen the gap from instant hits to avoid instant deaths from huge attacks. Dark is already a good contender as mentioned. Force Field, Cold, and Time Manipulation are all good defense candidates with Time likely being the most logical for large crowd impact that also catches the caster. Traps has one of the best -Regen tools in Poison Trap (also packs FFG if it can be kept alive). Trick Arrow has two tools that contain unresistable components with Flash Arrow and Poison Gas Arrow (-ToHit and -Dam) and also a -Heal in PGA that's useful against Surgeons. Last but not least is Storm which tosses in two more unkillable damage fiends in Tornado and Lightning Storm backed by Freezing Rain. To a certain extent if a coordinated team is built, Pain Domination can also work since it brings -Res and lasting +ToHit/+Dam to the table with heals that can support behind what will likely be stacked Barriers serving more consistently than most other options (this last one is a calculated choice).

 

Yes Illusion is the most ideal option for these because of Phantom Army being unstoppable and a pinch-hitter for a tank falling. Above all of these if I had to pick one to stand out individually it's likely Ill/Storm as the most capable of self-serving.

 

I am currently working towards building up my own Ill/Pain and then I'll be venturing into seeing about getting an Illusion team to do a 4*. I'm fairly confident that a 2x TA, 1x Trap, 2x Time, 2x Storm, and 1x Pain can execute it without death.

[WitchofDread]

@Sir Myshkin how about a dark/cold? In your estimation how would that fair?

 

Have you done any symphony testing?

[Guffnat]

It's kinda interesting that besides the unique features of Illusion Control controller primaries don't really seem to matter. It is all about the secondaries. So if theres next to no focus on the control aspects why should you bring a controller over another corruptor or defender?

Edited September 26, 2022 by Guffnat

[WitchofDread]

@Guffnat This is also something i have been considering...

[bustacap]

 

2 hours ago, Guffnat said:

It's kinda interesting that besides the unique features of Illusion Control controller primaries don't really seem to matter. It is all about the secondaries. So if theres next to no focus on the control aspects why should you bring a controller over another corruptor or defender?

 

The hostless can be held, and on the last encounter there is a hold mechanic that reduces roms regen by 50%. Both this and doms can do it. However something about this game favors Buff/Debuff over straight damage. Additionally the Shout of command was changed to not make controls useless. 

[MoonSheep]

i play a mind/fire permadom and find the control powers are a bit pointless on bosses and above on hard mode runs unless i take the time to stack things

 

there may be some value in targeting particularly annoying single targets, though a non controller/dom AT could also achieve this effectively if working with others

 

earth control for its -def and location based powers for longer fights seems like it would be useful

[Jiro Ito]

21 hours ago, Ceejer said:

You'll want Ill/Dark. Fade has DDR. Howling Twilight is great for standing the team back up. 

Just wanted to second illusion/dark; i've mostly been playing a tank on hard mode TFs but when another tank joined the team i swapped out to a toon that wasn't really built for hard mode, and this prompted me to look through my roster to see what I had that could be tweaked for hard mode content and my ill/dark stood out.  I ran him last night and it was as great as advertised.  Highly recommended!

[Doomguide2005]

     I think a lot of it comes down to team composition.  1 Controller favors something like Ill/Dark Affinity or an especially offensive secondary (Storm for example).  But like virtually all support characters you start stacking Controllers and their mezzes and you'll see results.  20 mag 3 mez attacks will generally mez an AV through their PToD.  A near impossible feat for most solo Controllers even with the Vanguard Medal.  But with 4+ Controllers there's going to a lot of statues in short order especially with Vanguard plus Hybrid incarnates getting involved.  Add a few more and even AVs through PToD are in trouble.

 

Edit:  8 Fire/Rads, for example, need maybe 4 to 6 seconds to drop 50+ mag worth of Holds on a target.  Might take a bit longer for Fire/NAff.  Both have PBAoE toggle Holds.  All they have to do is move adjacent while tossing Char.

Edited September 27, 2022 by Doomguide2005

[Shocktacular]

I just want to say "thank you" to this thread for motivating me to dust off (and improve) my ill/dark controller.  I'd forgotten how fun she is!

[WitchofDread]

not sure how valid this is but i tested a dark/cold/stone vs 3 Pylons and got the following times: 02:15, 01:59, 02:12

 

i then tested a sonic/cold/soul and got the following: 04:05, 03:53, 04:15

 

not entirely sure how this would hold up in hard mode but for the most part i was using Shadow Field for some big -to hit, Dark Grasp, Infridgidate, Fissure, and Seismic Smash for ST dmg. Pets were out and died a fair amount even with shields but not sure how this would translate in hard mode.

 

[Indystruck]

Controllers are great in 4* hard mode. When every spawn has team wipe potential, locking down the spawn becomes so much more worthwhile.

[Sir Myshkin]

On 9/26/2022 at 5:33 AM, WitchofDread said:

@Sir Myshkin how about a dark/cold? In your estimation how would that fair?

 

Have you done any symphony testing?

 

I haven't even looked at Symphony in all honesty. Dark though is the hardest hitting Controller primary excluding Illusion, and Fear is one the secret bombs of this game because of how little there is to stop it. Part of what makes Illusion so effective in Hard Mode isn't just the Phantom Army, but Spectral Terror too.

 

Cold has a good tool set, and I think... is it this thread I mentioned that already? Its a good combination of providing team defense and enemy debuffs, the downside is the factor in not being able to support its own player which I think is what makes it a bit of a failing point compared to some other opportunities. Cold has shown to be a popular (and effective) choice though because some of the best team times for 4* ITFs have come out of groups with multiple Cold users.

 

If I were going to pair something with Dark Control specifically though, and try and push for Hard Mode, I'd probably aim for Dark/Dark personally. Shades, Umbral, and Fluffy as a trio of pets would stack well, and Fluffy (Dark Servant) tosses in additional controls and another team heal, plus he can carry the -ToHit damage proc which will tag into everything it does for additional damage on an unkillable pet.

 

Edit: Random side note but I just caught myself thinking, open thought ... there might be a giant handicap to Hard Mode existing in Gravity Control. A team with one, maybe two might be best... with Dimension Shift could run the TF's in almost 100% safety by neutralizing all enemies within a constant Dimensional Shift. Since it is possible to location drop summons and powers into a shift field, things like Phantom Army, Storm Powers, drop Debuffs... can all be placed through the active field. Two gravity players could just cycle stack back and forth and let everything get destroyed with zero AoE fall out...

Edited September 29, 2022 by Sir Myshkin

[psylum1]

The notion that Control is somehow a liability is baffling. Every control Primary has a an AOE hold that can be slotted with the Lockdown: Chance for +2 mag proc. On my Plant/time this is locking down groups with ease. Seeds of Confusions requires multiple applications to stick but mobs survive long enough for seeds to still be a factor. There's also Carrion creepers. They're doing the same work they always do.

Knockdown is still as potent a control tool as it always has been, So fire, Ice, and Earth have tools that can be effective CC. Darkness control might have to work to get CC, but everything in dark comes with -tohit debuffs, including the pets,  which are helpful.  I'd need to Gravity and Mind people to weigh in as I don't have experience with them, but think Think Detention field would be really strong

 

[Sir Myshkin]

4 minutes ago, psylum1 said:

The notion that Control is somehow a liability is baffling.

 

The concern for some stems more from the buffs that the enemy factions received in Hard Mode. They've been made sturdier than normal, more resistant to certain things, and given stat boosts to things like ToHit and Damage so some debuffs are less impactful when they get easily resisted, or aren't considerable in value. It's almost a flat line case that -Def and -ToHit debuffs are pretty much of zero value through most of the spawn battles because they'll be running around with an egregious amount of group buffs that -7% isn't going to matter when you need -70%, so things have to be a bit more coordinated to stack and be worth it.

 

I do agree that to believe control is lacking at this point is the wrong thinking when in fact it is the very thing that can demonstrate how to turn this around and be the exact thing that makes Hard Mode "easy" by putting a utility back in play again.

[WitchofDread]

At present I do have a plant/dark/fire who is pretty damn tanks at times but I have been told a few times now that plant is useless in hardmode because of the confusion immunity.

 

Cold does suffer from a lack of survivability with having no heal - which sucks. But taking stone mastery for Earth's embrace helps a little (in theory).

 

The irony is I had leveled a dark/dark troller last yr and ended up deleting it because I didn't like the pairing >.<

[Doomguide2005]

7 hours ago, WitchofDread said:

At present I do have a plant/dark/fire who is pretty damn tanks at times but I have been told a few times now that plant is useless in hardmode because of the confusion immunity.

 

Cold does suffer from a lack of survivability with having no heal - which sucks. But taking stone mastery for Earth's embrace helps a little (in theory).

 

The irony is I had leveled a dark/dark troller last yr and ended up deleting it because I didn't like the pairing >.<

     It's more like they have protection rather than immunity.  Normally mobs have pretty much zero protection to Confuses.  A number of the HM foes possess Tactics or Tactics like powers which grant AoE protection to Confuse much like PC Tactics.  In turn just like any protection it can be overwhelmed by stacking Confuse.  At least that's what i have been reading.  Just when you're used to 'one-shot' confusing a mob and now you can't ... .

[Doomguide2005]

 

11 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

 

Edit: Random side note but I just caught myself thinking, open thought ... there might be a giant handicap to Hard Mode existing in Gravity Control. A team with one, maybe two might be best... with Dimension Shift could run the TF's in almost 100% safety by neutralizing all enemies within a constant Dimensional Shift. Since it is possible to location drop summons and powers into a shift field, things like Phantom Army, Storm Powers, drop Debuffs... can all be placed through the active field. Two gravity players could just cycle stack back and forth and let everything get destroyed with zero AoE fall out...

If I follow you, that's an oooOO!!

Basically perma-Dimension Shifting a spawn (25ft radius area) via multiple Gravity Controllers and dropping other pets and location based AoEs into the area and them all going to town in their own "MMA cage".   Yes?

 

Edit:  Fallout has a 60ft range, anyone volunteer? 

Edit 2:  Black Hole work the same?  Sorry virtually no experience with these powers especially in their current forms.

Edited September 30, 2022 by Doomguide2005
Afterthoughts

[Sir Myshkin]

1 hour ago, Doomguide2005 said:

If I follow you, that's an oooOO!!

Basically perma-Dimension Shifting a spawn (25ft radius area) via multiple Gravity Controllers and dropping other pets and location based AoEs into the area and them all going to town in their own "MMA cage".   Yes?

 

Yes, you've got the right idea. It is possible, once a Dimension shift has been activated, to drop Location-Based (TAoE) skills into the shifted space to be summoned or (in the case of powers like Wormhole) moved into. I tested this with Fold Space earlier today too and... that's not 100% confirmed yet but I think it does work, although it might not be intended to, hard to say cause it freaks out and says "unaffected" and then ports the targets anyway. But yes, powers like all of Storm, drop Rains, Phantom Army, pretty much any and all pets, all can be dropped in. There is no target limit on how many things can exist inside a single Dimension Shift, but it does have a physical volume limit, and it auto-immobilizes any enemy mob that it catches inside.

 

It is possible for a single player to get Dimension Shift into "perma" status at 20/s intervals, but there is the recasting gap which... may or may not really be that big of a deal, but still advisable for a second Shift to trade off, or expand the applicable field radius.

 

Just remember that things from outside the shift, like attacking, or general explosions (Novas) cannot impact what happens inside and vice-versa.

 

Black Hole does not work the same, it is a straight void of intangible and suckage.

[Doomguide2005]

 

5 minutes ago, Sir Myshkin said:

 

Just remember that things from outside the shift, like attacking, or general explosions (Novas) cannot impact what happens inside and vice-versa.

Yep that's why we need a few FFoF (Faithful Fans of Fallout).  Nothing like porting a corpse in there to get blown to smithereens to make everything that survives super squishy.

 

Edited September 30, 2022 by Doomguide2005
Typos