Focused Feedback: Dominator Illusion Control

[laudwic]

More on Phantasm - I tried to check the info while playing last night, but I could not get info to work to give me stats on Phantasm Decoys.  Looking at City of Data: 

 

Controller version:

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=pets.decoyphantasm.energy_torrent&at=minion_pets

 

58.7244 Damage (all heals back) but 13.33 Mag 4 Taunt

 

Dominator Version

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=pets.decoyphantasm_dominator.energy_torrent&at=minion_pets

 

58.744 Damage (all heals back - same damage, improvement but Dominators should still have higher damage than controllers)

60% chance of a Mag 6.231 Knockback 

 

So the difference is Controllers get 100% chance of great mitigation (wasting attacks on something immune) and Dominators get 40% chance of no mitigation and 60% chance of one of the most hated mitigation (admittedly you can get a knockback to knockdown enhancement but that costs inf AND you lose one of your limited enhancement slots.)

 

Dominators are damage focused, their version of illusion, especially on the two pet powers should not do inferior damage when compared to the controller version.  Especially when the controller version also is vastly superior in its control ability by having Mag 4 taunts with high duration compared to mag 3 sleep, Mag 2 stun (in PA only) or knockback (Phant and PA)(yes, some other minor secondary enhancements that are negligible value, if your not dedicated sapper, minor end drain is meaningless.  Minor slow for six seconds also pales in comparison to the mitigation of a 25 second mag 4 taunt to invulnerable pets. Plus, pets will knock other out of sleep that that isn't a big deal and these things are like a pickup group as you don't know what power they are going to use and they will not work together to do things like stack stuns.)

[flakoff]

On 10/13/2022 at 3:23 PM, laudwic said:

More on Phantasm - I tried to check the info while playing last night, but I could not get info to work to give me stats on Phantasm Decoys.  Looking at City of Data: 

 

Controller version:

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=pets.decoyphantasm.energy_torrent&at=minion_pets

 

58.7244 Damage (all heals back) but 13.33 Mag 4 Taunt

 

Dominator Version

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=pets.decoyphantasm_dominator.energy_torrent&at=minion_pets

 

58.744 Damage (all heals back - same damage, improvement but Dominators should still have higher damage than controllers)

60% chance of a Mag 6.231 Knockback 

 

So the difference is Controllers get 100% chance of great mitigation (wasting attacks on something immune) and Dominators get 40% chance of no mitigation and 60% chance of one of the most hated mitigation (admittedly you can get a knockback to knockdown enhancement but that costs inf AND you lose one of your limited enhancement slots.)

 

Dominators are damage focused, their version of illusion, especially on the two pet powers should not do inferior damage when compared to the controller version.  Especially when the controller version also is vastly superior in its control ability by having Mag 4 taunts with high duration compared to mag 3 sleep, Mag 2 stun (in PA only) or knockback (Phant and PA)(yes, some other minor secondary enhancements that are negligible value, if your not dedicated sapper, minor end drain is meaningless.  Minor slow for six seconds also pales in comparison to the mitigation of a 25 second mag 4 taunt to invulnerable pets. Plus, pets will knock other out of sleep that that isn't a big deal and these things are like a pickup group as you don't know what power they are going to use and they will not work together to do things like stack stuns.)

Doms are not just damage focused or domination wouldn't be a thing.

A controller for example,  ill/trick arrow relies on ta for more control relying  on pets to whittle down the enemy. 

An ill/fire dom would just stun mob for a prettty long time and with pet dam and a whole secondary of dam destroy the mob easy.  I built one on test, it seems you want taunting indestructible  pa, better control and best dam vs controllers, really ? Lol

 

[laudwic]

1 hour ago, flakoff said:

Doms are not just damage focused or domination wouldn't be a thing.

A controller for example,  ill/trick arrow relies on ta for more control relying  on pets to whittle down the enemy. 

An ill/fire dom would just stun mob for a prettty long time and with pet dam and a whole secondary of dam destroy the mob easy.  I built one on test, it seems you want taunting indestructible  pa, better control and best dam vs controllers, really ? Lol

 

 

Ok, point by point:

Of course Dominators are not 'just damage focused' - you miss my point, the Assault secondary, which is only for Dominators, is absolutely damage focused.  Especially when you compare it to the Controller Secondary - aka Defender primaries which focus on mitigation.

 

Ok, Ill/TA Controllers - frankly, mine relies more on the Sorcery Power Pool (Arcane Bolt and Enflame) and Fire Mastery (fireball) for damage with Spectral wounds for damage, TA is a great set for everything, but it is still more of a mitigation/control set than damage.  

 

I don't understand your ill/fire references, frankly I think Energy has better stun potential but I've never played fire.

 

No, what I would like is a clear vision for the new Dominator versions for Phantom Army and Phantasm.  The current versions are the Diet Softdrink of the powers world.

 

As they currently exist, the Controller versions do more damage and provide more control.  My Ill/TA Controller has a lot easier time with the Halloween EBs than my test Ill/Energy Dom.  

 

My suggestions for changes to this set after this thread and testing:

 

Gleam - Reluctantly it should stay the same as the Symphony Control power I was comparing it to is over powered and the centerpiece power of that set.  Gleam's damage, while pathetic, is consistent with other similar powers at that level.  Note: I still would love for it to become Positron's Irresistible Boogie by replacing the stun emotes with random dance emotes plus adding a disco ball for the duration.  The current graphics are nice, but it is too similar to Flash.   

 

Phantom Army: Increase damage to Controller levels, if not a small amount higher.   Add Taunt same magnitude but 1/2 duration to all Melee attacks.  (The Controller PA Taunt duration is too high) At a minimum damage should be equal, while I still think it should be higher on a Dominator power rather than a controller.  Right now the damage mitigation is very skewed to Controller, adding same magnitude but 1/2 duration taunt to melee (ie. 1/2 the attacks) will remove some of the difference.  I still think the controller version is better, but this evens it up some and encourages Doms to fight along side of Phantom Army.

 

Phantasm:  Keep it the same for both classes (Ie: give taunt back to decoys for Doms) Either fix the AI (I apologize that I do not have the programming knowledge or skill to understand if this is a major undertaking or not but I do remember the Symphony AI changing a couple of times during test.  I don't know if that is an apt comparison or not.)  If we can't change the AI to range, give it a melee power (punch or energy punch) as charging in without an attack just doesn't make sense.  Or, an idea I really like, make the AI ranged for Contollers and Current for Doms with a melee attack added (with decoys having taunt restored - it is the whole point of the decoy)  Also, since it is what I want, having the ability to have your Phantasm look like you (as well as the Decoy) would be great!

 

 

 

 

[flakoff]

2 hours ago, laudwic said:

 

Ok, point by point:

Of course Dominators are not 'just damage focused' - you miss my point, the Assault secondary, which is only for Dominators, is absolutely damage focused.  Especially when you compare it to the Controller Secondary - aka Defender primaries which focus on mitigation.

 

Ok, Ill/TA Controllers - frankly, mine relies more on the Sorcery Power Pool (Arcane Bolt and Enflame) and Fire Mastery (fireball) for damage with Spectral wounds for damage, TA is a great set for everything, but it is still more of a mitigation/control set than damage.  

 

I don't understand your ill/fire references, frankly I think Energy has better stun potential but I've never played fire.

 

No, what I would like is a clear vision for the new Dominator versions for Phantom Army and Phantasm.  The current versions are the Diet Softdrink of the powers world.

 

As they currently exist, the Controller versions do more damage and provide more control.  My Ill/TA Controller has a lot easier time with the Halloween EBs than my test Ill/Energy Dom.  

 

My suggestions for changes to this set after this thread and testing:

 

Gleam - Reluctantly it should stay the same as the Symphony Control power I was comparing it to is over powered and the centerpiece power of that set.  Gleam's damage, while pathetic, is consistent with other similar powers at that level.  Note: I still would love for it to become Positron's Irresistible Boogie by replacing the stun emotes with random dance emotes plus adding a disco ball for the duration.  The current graphics are nice, but it is too similar to Flash.   

 

Phantom Army: Increase damage to Controller levels, if not a small amount higher.   Add Taunt same magnitude but 1/2 duration to all Melee attacks.  (The Controller PA Taunt duration is too high) At a minimum damage should be equal, while I still think it should be higher on a Dominator power rather than a controller.  Right now the damage mitigation is very skewed to Controller, adding same magnitude but 1/2 duration taunt to melee (ie. 1/2 the attacks) will remove some of the difference.  I still think the controller version is better, but this evens it up some and encourages Doms to fight along side of Phantom Army.

 

Phantasm:  Keep it the same for both classes (Ie: give taunt back to decoys for Doms) Either fix the AI (I apologize that I do not have the programming knowledge or skill to understand if this is a major undertaking or not but I do remember the Symphony AI changing a couple of times during test.  I don't know if that is an apt comparison or not.)  If we can't change the AI to range, give it a melee power (punch or energy punch) as charging in without an attack just doesn't make sense.  Or, an idea I really like, make the AI ranged for Contollers and Current for Doms with a melee attack added (with decoys having taunt restored - it is the whole point of the decoy)  Also, since it is what I want, having the ability to have your Phantasm look like you (as well as the Decoy) would be great!

 

 

 

 

I was meaning with the new stun the mobs are not really going to do much and fire hits hard, i was doing +4x8 easy on test. 

If you give pa taunt it would be over powered on a dom imo.

Edited October 14, 2022 by flakoff

[Frosticus]

2 minutes ago, flakoff said:

I was meaning with the new stun the mobs are not really going to do much and fire hits hard, i was doing +4x8 easy on test. 

If you give pa taunt it would be over powered on a dom imo.

PA is a pretty broken power on trollers. The devs are obviously very adverse to repeating that mistake even going so far as to strip the taunt mechanic from the decoy in Phantasm.

Keep in mind that when PA was designed high uptime of the power required an entire team dedicated to the purpose. Now there is no reason not to have perma PA on a high level team.

 

That said, they need to decide what role PA is to serve for doms and possibly look at adding a power or two to Phantasm to compensate for the decoy nerf.

Is PA intended to be a control power? Maybe they should do fears or confuses? (fits the set pretty well)

Is PA simply intended to be an auxiliary damage source? Should likely reduce the % of illusionary damage then and/or look at reducing the base recharge, or extending the duration of the summons.

 

Every control set has 2-3 thematic set defining powers unique to only them (so not gleam). Superior invis and PA are illusion's. 

Illusion being a strong control set doesn't mean PA (and phantasm) should be swept under the rug. There are fair ways to differentiate dom and controller PA without repeating the mistakes of the OG devs. 

 

[Major_Decoy]

1 hour ago, Frosticus said:

Keep in mind that when PA was designed high uptime of the power required an entire team dedicated to the purpose. Now there is no reason not to have perma PA on a high level team.

 

When Phantom Army was designed you could six slot for recharge and six slot hasten for recharge. The duration is 60 seconds, the recharge is 240 seconds, so you just need +300% recharge to get it perma. You can get 200% from six slotting Phantom Army with Single Origin Recharge Enhancements, you could get 70% from Hasten, you could get 30% from Accelerate Metabolism. When Hamidon launched, you could get 50% recharge reduction from a Hamidon Enhancement. So you could slot six membranes and get perma Phantom Army, but it probably made more sense to keep hasten and add a couple Nucleolus.

 

Edit: Okay, patch notes of September 18th, 2004 say "Increased lifetime, Aggro and perception (aggressiveness) of Phantom Army." I don't know how long the duration was before then, but nothing after that point seems to have changed the duration.

Edited October 14, 2022 by Major_Decoy

[Frosticus]

1 hour ago, Major_Decoy said:

When Phantom Army was designed you could six slot for recharge and six slot hasten for recharge. 

You are not wrong. I'd forgotten about the days of imp armies, dumpster diving and (near) zero damage perma PA.

 

Perhaps it is best not to dwell on what past devs thought because all that matters is what the current ones envision. 

 

They clearly have a problem with illusion having taunting pets  (earth has one mind you).

 

I dont see their design intent behind dom PA or phant decoy, but I'm still going to use the set extensively. 

[Frosticus]

Inconsistent endurance costs

 

Gleam and Stalagmites: end cost = 10.4

Flashfire, Wormhole and Heart of Darkness: end cost = 15.6

[Indystruck]

Is Spectral Wall the only power using spooky ghost faces that isn't a fear?

[Spectre7878]

I am so happy that there is an illusion dominator. Its been a long time coming. I love the single target immobilize and the aoe stun. Makes the set much better imo. It would be nice if there was a way for spectral terror to build up domination somehow. Not sure if that doable but would be nice if it could do that.

[AlwaysAPrice]

On 10/4/2022 at 2:33 PM, The Curator said:

You can construct a powerful entity composed of pure light. Although made of light, the Phantasm is tangible and has powerful Energy attacks. The Phantasm can also fly and summon duplicates of itself. The duplicates are intangible, and cannot be harmed. The duplicates' attacks deal illusory damage similar to that dealt by Spectral Wounds. Only the original Phantasm can be healed and buffed. Type ''/release_pets'' in the chat window to release all your pets.

 

As Spectral Wounds is not a part of this powerset, recommend changing its mention in Phantasm's description to Phantom Army, which is and explains illusory damage in its own description.

[Zepp]

It takes some adjustment. Going from Illusion Control on my Controller, which uses aggro management as its primary method of control, to Illusion Control on Dominator, which uses more traditional control methods. It requires a change to tactics and feels more ST focused control-wise even with Gleam.

 

I have issues calling it Illusion Control, but it does look like Illusion Control.

[Ultimo]

Is there some way to transform an existing character to use new sets?  I have a character based on Loki that I'd love to give this set as a Dominator; he's currently a Controller, but the Dominator secondaries suit him far better.

[twozerofoxtrot]

22 minutes ago, Ultimo said:

Is there some way to transform an existing character to use new sets?  I have a character based on Loki that I'd love to give this set as a Dominator; he's currently a Controller, but the Dominator secondaries suit him far better.

 

Unfortunately, no. 

 

Your only option is to roll a new character, change the name of your old character (maybe by just adding a punctuation mark), and then giving the new character the old name.

 

It would be nice, though.  Especially for characters you've invested a lot into.

[Major_Decoy]

So, my clone in the Dean MacArthur arc has Spectral Wounds.

[laudwic]

9 hours ago, Zepp said:

It takes some adjustment. Going from Illusion Control on my Controller, which uses aggro management as its primary method of control, to Illusion Control on Dominator, which uses more traditional control methods. It requires a change to tactics and feels more ST focused control-wise even with Gleam.

 

I have issues calling it Illusion Control, but it does look like Illusion Control.

 

Honestly, it seems the types of Phantom Army are reversed.  Dominator, a class more built for Solo (as is the case for all red side ATs) and has sets with Melee attack powers currently has the version that is less damage and more traditional controls that would play better at range and Controller, a more team based class, has the version with more damage and Taunt (don't attack me) not traditional controls that work great at drawing away agroo.

[shatterpoint]

On 10/14/2022 at 2:20 PM, laudwic said:

Gleam - Reluctantly it should stay the same as the Symphony Control power I was comparing it to is over powered and the centerpiece power of that set.  Gleam's damage, while pathetic, is consistent with other similar powers at that level.  Note: I still would love for it to become Positron's Irresistible Boogie by replacing the stun emotes with random dance emotes plus adding a disco ball for the duration.  The current graphics are nice, but it is too similar to Flash. 

LOVE this idea.

[Wavicle]

4 hours ago, laudwic said:

 

Honestly, it seems the types of Phantom Army are reversed.  Dominator, a class more built for Solo (as is the case for all red side ATs) and has sets with Melee attack powers currently has the version that is less damage and more traditional controls that would play better at range and Controller, a more team based class, has the version with more damage and Taunt (don't attack me) not traditional controls that work great at drawing away agroo.

 

The Controller's version provides higher levels of team safety. All ATs are balanced primarily for team contribution, even those that solo better than others.