Is changing the power levels power creep?

[BrandX]

6 minutes ago, TygerDarkstorm said:

I haven't tested out a character with an early arriving nuke yet, but of the MM's I've put in that level range so far, the lack of slotting definitely impacts the ability to pick the powers sooner. Sure, my Bots/Cold had Heat Loss before level 30, but I didn't have the slots to assign to it, and taking those primary/secondary picks first also meant not picking up things in the pool powers as quickly for my own defenses. You are absolutely still needing to make calculated trade-offs to take these things at the new lower levels. Being able to use Heat Loss at that level was kind of wild feeling, but even with a recharge IO in it, I couldn't have it usable for every spawn. Now, I can say what these changes mean for folks who kit their toons out in attuned IO's as I tend to only use the basic ones at these levels.

 

I use attuned IOs and slot them as soon as my build allows (since they're attuned, it depends on the earliest level I can slot the enhancement).  I also try to make some calculated choices on what to slow when.  Sustaining Endurance for instance means I like those +Rec procs asap. 🙂

 

Heat Loss is an interesting choice, as it's still on a long recharge with IOs and lots of recharge bonuses 🙂  But such a power, would for example be nice on AVs one would run into on low level TFs, in that it will help take them down faster.

 

I'd say most teams will get them taken down regardless.

[WindDemon21]

On 10/7/2022 at 7:01 PM, Greycat said:

 

As a side note, this is the content I *love* doing. I don't care if "teams mercilessly plowed through it" already.  Early content zips by no matter what. But the 20s-mid 30s? I love doing this content. So, yes, I'm greatly concerned about how this is going to affect the TFs *and* my solo experience - so if all you're thinking of (generic you)  is "Team of 8 blows through level 20-30 in one hour" or "TFs only," that's nowhere near the whole picture.

 

Edit:

Hell, this is giving me flashbacks to live and Incarnates. "We have trials, why would you want solo/small team content?" Because I didn't want to and didn't enjoy grinding through trials. Had to make *that* argument a few thousand times it felt like, and being told that basically doesn't matter was what got me to leave the game for the first time since I3 for several months.

I'm with you there. The 20s and 30s are my favorite spots in the game, but it'll still be nice to do those with more fun powers. More of the issue, is that you outlevel those. I even stop dxp, and often shut off exp to finish contacts etc. I'd rather instead, see you NOT be able to outlevel those contacts, and instead it'll just auto exemp you to the max level of the contact, and other strategies like this to combat the issue. But the waiting so long for some powers esp the secondary tier 8/9s was always a chore.

[thunderforce]

4 hours ago, BrandX said:

And really people seem to really only be looking at specific T9s.  Not all T9's are equal.

I think that is because the lower-level content where they are newly available will be more changed by the most effective T9s than the least effective.

[Wavicle]

6 minutes ago, thunderforce said:

I think that is because the lower-level content where they are newly available will be more changed by the most effective T9s than the least effective.

the point is that IF there’s a problem it isn’t the General wider availability of T9s, it’s the relative power of certain specific T9s.

[thunderforce]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

the point is that IF there’s a problem it isn’t the General wider availability of T9s, it’s the relative power of certain specific T9s.

That seems like it would require a much more wide-ranging change, nerfing many blaster nukes, than the more specific proposals advanced here would.

[Wavicle]

47 minutes ago, thunderforce said:

That seems like it would require a much more wide-ranging change, nerfing many blaster nukes, than the more specific proposals advanced here would.

IF. I don’t believe there’s really a problem.

[Riverdusk]

To those saying lower level mobs aren't designed for some of these higher level powers and that higher level mobs are?  I don't really see much difference in level 20 council compared to level 50 council.  Same for freakshow.  That's two of the most popular enemies you face from level 20 to 50.  I see some differences when looking at the wiki, but I had to look at the wiki to really even realize that.  And I also see a lot of mobs in the groups that cover all or most of the level 20-50 range, including super stunners which are probably the hardest freakshow mob.   

 

I could make the argument that circle of thorns actually get easier as they level up (ruin mages are nastier than agony or death mages imo, earth thorn casters are worse than air or ice thorn casters).

 

Except for the usual scaling of damage and health, which also affects players, I don't actually find CoH makes particular effort to scale up their mobs much.   Arachnos probably the most notable that actually do feel harder, but they feel more like the exception than the rule.

 

And yes, I'd be all for adding a tough new boss to council similar to how super stunners were added to freakshow.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Riverdusk

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, Riverdusk said:

To those saying lower level mobs aren't designed for some of these higher level powers and that higher level mobs are?  I don't really see much difference in level 20 council compared to level 50 council.  Same for freakshow.  That's two of the most popular enemies you face from level 20 to 50.  I see some differences when looking at the wiki, but I had to look at the wiki to really even realize that.  And I also see a lot of mobs in the groups that cover all or most of the level 20-50 range, including super stunners which are probably the hardest freakshow mob.   

It's not the powers they throw at you that come into play. It would be the resists and HP. The background mechanics.

 

The main thing I look at for considering how well mobs can deal with player powers is how easily I can waffle stomp a mission in Ouroboros compared to running it at level. There are 3 variables to account for in doing that: available powers while exemplared as compared to at level, available enhancements as compared to at level, and available set bonuses as compared to at level.

 

I'll be honest: I have no means of measuring those independently and can only run off my perceptions of doing the content. And my perception is that the content is significantly easier when done exemplared than at level. This would seem to be further validated by the comments I'm still occasionally given of I should just get to 50 and then go back and do the content. Since I use my other characters, gained reward merits, and random drop rewards to fund my characters' progression with attuned IOs, the two biggest changes between being exemplared to the mission and being at level are the available powers and the set bonuses. Since I can stomp missions at a higher difficulty level while exemplared as opposed to the standard difficulty I have to play on until I get to that point, it looks to me like it is the additional powers that make the biggest difference. Particularly having access to the higher tier powers.

[Riverdusk]

10 minutes ago, Rudra said:

It's not the powers they throw at you that come into play. It would be the resists and HP. The background mechanics.

 

The main thing I look at for considering how well mobs can deal with player powers is how easily I can waffle stomp a mission in Ouroboros compared to running it at level. There are 3 variables to account for in doing that: available powers while exemplared as compared to at level, available enhancements as compared to at level, and available set bonuses as compared to at level.

 

I'll be honest: I have no means of measuring those independently and can only run off my perceptions of doing the content. And my perception is that the content is significantly easier when done exemplared than at level. This would seem to be further validated by the comments I'm still occasionally given of I should just get to 50 and then go back and do the content. Since I use my other characters, gained reward merits, and random drop rewards to fund my characters' progression with attuned IOs, the two biggest changes between being exemplared to the mission and being at level are the available powers and the set bonuses. Since I can stomp missions at a higher difficulty level while exemplared as opposed to the standard difficulty I have to play on until I get to that point, it looks to me like it is the additional powers that make the biggest difference. Particularly having access to the higher tier powers.

 

Biggest factors that make exemping easier to me imo actually:  The +5 power level that exemping gives you.   All the extra slots you have when exemping.  Those extra slots then also are double impactful as they lead to actually having more set bonuses because you'll have a lot more 5 and 6 slotted sets slotted.

 

Oh, and mob hps scale and most of the time their resists stay constant from what I could see.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Riverdusk

[thunderforce]

8 hours ago, Wavicle said:

IF. I don’t believe there’s really a problem.

OK. However, those of us who do believe there's a problem can discuss potential solutions, and I think it is safe to say that "remove the 5-level exemplar grace" is feasible in a way that "rework every good T9 power" is not.

6 hours ago, Riverdusk said:

To those saying lower level mobs aren't designed for some of these higher level powers and that higher level mobs are?  I don't really see much difference in level 20 council compared to level 50 council.  Same for freakshow.

Of course you do get new enemy groups, and Council are perhaps unusual in their very wide level range and lack of variety, but even if enemy groups didn't change at all, there's a pretty limited chunk of the game that isn't watching nukes (and Ion Judgements) pop off and it would be nice if it didn't shrink.

6 hours ago, Riverdusk said:

Biggest factors that make exemping easier to me imo actually:  The +5 power level that exemping gives you.   All the extra slots you have when exemping.

The slots themselves scale down - it's possible the on-level toon who just six-slotted Power X actually gets better Acc/Dam/Rech etc than the one exemplared down -  but as you note that doesn't apply to set bonuses and in the Homecoming all-attuned world that's huge.

 

Remove the 5 level power grace. 🙂

[Starhammer]

So for me, I'd love to be able to pick whatever powers at whatever level (frankly I'd like to mix and match from different sets at that... 3-4 different melee sets, or combine dual pistols and assault rifle... etc), but in my case it's because I value form over function in this game. Obviously, function matters. Doesn't matter how cool I look if I faceplant at the start of every mob. That's just not fun for me. But as long as I have a smooth attack sequence, and I can win most of the combats I involve myself in if I pay attention and don't do anything too stupid, it's gonna be the choreography that turns my crank. To that end, I'd much rather have more options, and the scale the invisible math for "balance." I'd also rather not have to take "throw away powers" in order to select later ones. Kick is pretty cool for most characters... but not all, and those characters may want/need Tough or Weave, and then they have to have Boxing or Kick to qualify, even if they'll just get removed from the power tray and forgotten. The issue with primary and secondary pools is at least a little less obnoxious, since higher level powers aren't locked out until you get certain lower level ones (at least now that Secondaries can skip T1), but still, more options is always better, in my view.

Obviously, development resources are limited, and only so much can be done... But I can see and agree with many aspects of both sides of this issue. I think, if the necessary resources were available, the optimal way of progressing power selection would be to alter a power's base functionality depending on at what level you select it... (essentially, that would mean making a slightly different version of each power for each selection level... lots of work). So if you take your "Nuke" at T1, that's fine, but it will always be a small time power, even if it scales when you level, it won't scale as advantageously as a power selected at a higher level... on the other hand, taking Flares at level 48, once enhanced, would incinerate the Devil himself. But this way, powers selected earlier would be less apt to upset game balance at those early levels, and at the same time, a character could have the sequence of powers best suited to them, whether that be for form, function, or both.

 

Progression and inventory management are not "roleplay," at least not inherently, even if you choose for them to be represented as such in your narrative. P&IM can certainly coexist with RP, but are no substitute for it. Also, as supers go, some characters really do start out by exploding and eventually learn to suppress their full power and use it more precisely with practice and experience, and that's just as valid a playstyle as any other. Do what you do.

[Yomo Kimyata]

I’d like to ask the forum managers specifically, why was this thread moved to Suggestions rather than General?

[Wavicle]

44 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

I’d like to ask the forum managers specifically, why was this thread moved to Suggestions rather than General?

I’d guess it’s to keep it in the Development section.

[Rudra]

6 hours ago, Starhammer said:

Also, as supers go, some characters really do start out by exploding and eventually learn to suppress their full power and use it more precisely with practice and experience,

Yes, there are characters who have no control over their powers in the comics. And if players want top tier powers like nukes at level 1 to simulate that? Then sure. As long as those powers have the following flags: Affects enemies, Affects allies, Affects non-combat NPCs. After all, they can't control their power, so using it is going to hurt everyone other than themselves. I doubt anyone is willing to play that kind of character though. Makes teaming unpleasant and escort missions almost impossible, but that is how the characters in comics that start with the uncontrolled powers and have to progressively learn control work.

 

The power progression in the game shows a character that has control over his/her powers and improves on it. I don't get why anyone would play a character that has no control and progressively gains it, but that doesn't mean there aren't any. However, a lack of control over powers means those characters are as deadly to their teammates as they are to their enemies. And to random bystanders like NPCs needing to be escorted out.

 

(Edit: And yes, that would apply to the T9 pets too. They can't be controlled, so they keep attacking everything.)

Edited October 11, 2022 by Rudra

[biostem]

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

Yes, there are characters who have no control over their powers in the comics. And if players want top tier powers like nukes at level 1 to simulate that? Then sure. As long as those powers have the following flags: Affects enemies, Affects allies, Affects non-combat NPCs. After all, they can't control their power, so using it is going to hurt everyone other than themselves. I doubt anyone is willing to play that kind of character though. Makes teaming unpleasant and escort missions almost impossible, but that is how the characters in comics that start with the uncontrolled powers and have to progressively learn control work.

I know you're making an example, but please don't ever implement something like this - it'd be a griefer's wet dream...

[BrandX]

9 hours ago, Starhammer said:

So for me, I'd love to be able to pick whatever powers at whatever level (frankly I'd like to mix and match from different sets at that... 3-4 different melee sets, or combine dual pistols and assault rifle... etc), but in my case it's because I value form over function in this game. Obviously, function matters. Doesn't matter how cool I look if I faceplant at the start of every mob. That's just not fun for me. But as long as I have a smooth attack sequence, and I can win most of the combats I involve myself in if I pay attention and don't do anything too stupid, it's gonna be the choreography that turns my crank. To that end, I'd much rather have more options, and the scale the invisible math for "balance." I'd also rather not have to take "throw away powers" in order to select later ones. Kick is pretty cool for most characters... but not all, and those characters may want/need Tough or Weave, and then they have to have Boxing or Kick to qualify, even if they'll just get removed from the power tray and forgotten. The issue with primary and secondary pools is at least a little less obnoxious, since higher level powers aren't locked out until you get certain lower level ones (at least now that Secondaries can skip T1), but still, more options is always better, in my view.

Obviously, development resources are limited, and only so much can be done... But I can see and agree with many aspects of both sides of this issue. I think, if the necessary resources were available, the optimal way of progressing power selection would be to alter a power's base functionality depending on at what level you select it... (essentially, that would mean making a slightly different version of each power for each selection level... lots of work). So if you take your "Nuke" at T1, that's fine, but it will always be a small time power, even if it scales when you level, it won't scale as advantageously as a power selected at a higher level... on the other hand, taking Flares at level 48, once enhanced, would incinerate the Devil himself. But this way, powers selected earlier would be less apt to upset game balance at those early levels, and at the same time, a character could have the sequence of powers best suited to them, whether that be for form, function, or both.

 

Progression and inventory management are not "roleplay," at least not inherently, even if you choose for them to be represented as such in your narrative. P&IM can certainly coexist with RP, but are no substitute for it. Also, as supers go, some characters really do start out by exploding and eventually learn to suppress their full power and use it more precisely with practice and experience, and that's just as valid a playstyle as any other. Do what you do.

 

So be able to take those Fire Armor shields and combine them with Super Reflex shields! \o/

[UltraAlt]

On 10/5/2022 at 4:51 PM, _NOPE_ said:

Now, we can't have really two different "game modes" in City of Heroes, because it's not a single player game - it's a social game. We all have to agree to play by the same rules. And that's where the rub, and the tension comes in. Because there are those like myself that want things to be "Nintendo Hard", and there are others who I understand just want to play around and feel like a God on Earth.

 

You can have as many modes of City of Heroes as you want to play.

You can play that everytime you fall in combat that you delete the character and start over.

You can play that everytime you fall in combat that you log that character out for the day.

You can play without using an inspirations.

You can play without slotting any enhancements.

You can play with slotting only the enhancements that drop for your character.

You can play with slotting only the lowest level of enhancements that a vendor will sell to you.

You can play with only IO enhancements (No IO sets).

You can play with no ATO enhancements.

You can play with no P2W powers, buffs, or enhancements.

You can not play through the game to level 50 without doorsiting in a farm or being power-leveled by others by some other method.

You can make a Temporal Warrior for PVP only.

You can doorsit and get power-leveled to 50.

You can solo.

You can team up.

You can league up.

You can run arc missions only.

You can run scanner/newspaper missions only. (by level 6 or so)

You can run AE missions only.

You can just run trials and task forces.

You can play in the sometimes forgotten hazard zones.

You can play each character separately and not transfer influence or items from your other characters.

You don't have to use mids.

You can never use respecs.

You can decide to lock your xp at any point.

You can even run petless masterminds.

You can set the mission difficulty up and down and change the size of the spawns.

 

We don't all play by the same rules.

I don't farm.

I don't use 2xp after the first initial 8 hours unless I'm trying to level at the same rate as a friend when we create characters from scratch and level them up together.

There are plenty of other things that do or don't do that other players do or don't do.

We don't all play by the same rules.

 

And, you end this paragraph explaining that we don't all play the game for the same reason/rules.

 

On 10/5/2022 at 4:51 PM, _NOPE_ said:

But, I would argue, that the lower levels should be HARD.

 

And you can make them hard using some of the things that I listed above.

 

You can also make them easy by putting the difficulty in the negative.

 

Myself. I like setting on the difficulty as high as the team can handle. If the team is wiping, then I turn it down to what the team can handle.

 

On 10/5/2022 at 4:51 PM, _NOPE_ said:

They should be where you just begin as an amateur hero, a weak character that's just getting started, hasn't learned the ropes is new to their powers, and hasn't "exercised" them. Over time, you level up, get stronger and more powerful. Each level gives you access to new amazing powers, and you really feel like you've "earned" your power by the time you get to level 50.

 

The journey is the original intent of the game.

The end-game is slapped onto the end to keep people playing so that they are paying for their subscription or P2W stuff.

F2P is to get other people on the servers to play with the subscribers.

 

Now you have to go back to how the game was before the Auction House. Back then I had a defender that couldn't get enough influence to even fully slot training enhancements in the mid teens. XP and Influence was unequally divided and granted based more on damage done than anything else. I healed and healed and buffed and buffed. I could help a team survive and win, but the rest of the team would out level me and then leave me behind ... and, yeah, they had the influence for slotting.

And, yeah, I knew the difference because I had plenty of characters and was able to level up and slot up ... but they were all damage dealers.

 

There was also hard parts where it was difficult to keep your enhancement green.

 

And there was the flow of the game.

When you meet a new group of villains, they are supposed to be difficult to defeat. As you level up, and figure out how that group works, you have an easier time defeating them. As you level pass them, they become easy to defeat, but then rolls in the new group of villains to contend with.

 

And I agree that the feeling of accomplishment is there when you take the leveling path to 50 and relish each "ding" that you finally reach. Those "ding"s really mean something to you. "Finally I'm level #!!!"

 

On 10/5/2022 at 4:51 PM, _NOPE_ said:

Why not make City of Heroes like Champions Online was, Free Form where you choose whatever powers you want whenever you want?

 

Well, to start, City of Heroes was made before Champions Online or DCUO. Jack worked on all 3 (still works on DCUO but back on another Marvel project apparently)

 

Champions Online was built on what was a Marvel Universe Online project that fell through.

Champions Online took the signature characters of Champions and threw out all the rules ... all the rules that were entirely mathematically balanced.

 

Did they change Champions Online? 

You certainly could not pick whatever powers you want whenever you wanted them.

The DEVs thought that it was a horrible idea to let players build their own characters in Champions Online like in Champions.

The DEVs were against that idea that they rewrote the Champions rules based on their game mechanics and released that as the official Champions. Which was a travesty.

I equate it to throwing out the baby and keeping the bath water. The DEVs of Champions Online ditched one of the best set of gaming rules and kept the signature characters.

 

I'm not going back to take a look at it to see if they fixed it. I didn't like the art or the game flow of Champions Online.

 

And if there was a change to make it free form like that ... it would be an entirely different game.

The same way that Champions Online is an entirely different game from Champions.

 

If you want to be able switch your powers around City of Heroes has builds. 

If you like Champions Online better than City of Heroes, then go play Champions Online.

You can change your powers around whenever you want in DCUO. You can even change other aspects, but some you have to pay to be able to change. So maybe you might like that better.

 

I'm not trying to run you off or start an argument, but I can pretty much promise you that the DEVs are not going to rewrite the game to the lengths necessary to achieve what you are suggesting.

 

DCUO is superior to Champions Online, and THE CITY is by far better than either one of them.

 

On 10/5/2022 at 4:51 PM, _NOPE_ said:

I propose the following solution as an alternative suggestion to constantly pushing to make the early levels easier for everyone:

 

Who is trying to make the lower levels easier?

 

I'll agree that there are somethings that make the leveling process easier, but I haven't run into any posts saying that the game content is too hard.

 

I do see plenty of threads that endgame players with fully maxed-out mini-maxed cookie-cutter builds find the end-game to be too easy.

 

On 10/5/2022 at 4:51 PM, _NOPE_ said:

Put them back to the way they were when the game was on Live back all those years ago, and implement an "I Win" button.

 

There was no "I win" button in the game before the sunset.

Is this a troll post?

 

On 10/5/2022 at 4:51 PM, _NOPE_ said:

No, seriously. Stick a contact somewhere that you can talk to that allows you to just artificially set your power level to whatever level you want. You want an instant 50? BOOM, you're there, you now just have to transfer influence from one of your alts to fill in your slots. You just want to skip the early levels where you didn't have access to Flight, and you're tired of the Dr. V storyline? BOOM, done, skip those few. This solution would end the concept of "powerlevelling", there'd be no need, just go see the I Win button, then play the content you WANT to play. Jump right into that high level "steamroller" content that you thrive on.

 

There have been threads about this before.

 

The main reason for this not being a thing is the Naming issue. 

At this point, if you are level 50, your name can never be taken from you.

And that is something that already disagree with as plenty of people power level to 50 by one method or another as it is. 

 

 So yeah, if that is the point of the thread, I wasted my time writing as I read it, but I'm going to post this since I wasted my time writing it.

 

On 10/5/2022 at 4:51 PM, _NOPE_ said:

I then have the option to ignore that contact entirely, and so I'll just be sitting here punching Hellions in the face at level 1 for the next two hours for the umpteenth time, as God (Statesman, I guess) intended! Win-win, we all get what we want. Those that seem to hate the lower level game can skip it, and those of us that love the game at ALL levels, from our weakest moments where we have to use Rest after every fight all the way up to facing stuff in Portal Corp and beyond can do it our slow, "boring" way.

 

I'm not sure what you are doing that is taking you 2 hours to get to level 2.

 

The dead horse has been kicked.

[Rudra]

40 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

And if there was a change to make it free form like that ... it would be an entirely different game.

Yeah, Champions Online has a Silver Free Form and Gold Free Form slot. The difference is the silver free form gets the same number of powers as the archetype characters and the gold free form gets 1 or 2 extra powers. And you can choose powers except for the energy builder (which you are only allowed to have 1 of) from any set of powers. What people calling for CoX to be like CO are missing though, is that the powers in CO had prerequisites. You could get up to 3 different powers from any given set. Those 3 or so powers had no prerequisites. They were also bottom tier powers. The higher tier powers had progressively higher prerequisites to get though. Those prerequisites being a minimum number of powers from that set already on the character. The minimum prerequisite was still 3 powers to unlock anything higher, but your energy builder counted if it was from that set. And you still had to have 6 (maybe 5?) powers from a given set to get access to the best power(s) in that set. So powers like the nukes and other premium powers are still gained relatively late in the game.

 

Edit: Also conveniently ignored in those comparisons are that CO is mostly archetypes. You have to buy each and every slot you want as a free form. Otherwise you are stuck playing an archetype and are given your powers with no choice on the matter except for at 1 point in leveling. You don't get to make your character, it is pre-made for you and you just get to select a slotted power and make 1 choice between 2 powers at a single late point in leveling.

 

40 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

There was no "I win" button in the game before the sunset.

Is this a troll post?

No, the request is to create an I win button and simply bypass the levels. I disagree with doing so, but that is what the I win button in the thread is for.

 

 

Edited October 12, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to add minimum prerequisite comment.

[UltraAlt]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Yeah, Champions Online has a Silver Free Form and Gold Free Form slot. The difference is the silver free form gets the same number of powers as the archetype characters and the gold free form gets 1 or 2 extra powers.

 

And how much do those cost?

 

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

What people calling for CoX to be like CO are missing though

 

I see. Good info.

 

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

Also conveniently ignored in those comparisons are that CO is mostly archetypes.

 

Yep. Archetype/classes/group-affiliation is standard in MMOs (most role-playing games really - oddly enough, not in the original Champions RPG).

 

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

You have to buy each and every slot you want as a free form.

 

Yeah, expected as much.

But at what price?

 

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

You don't get to make your character, it is pre-made for you and you just get to select a slotted power and make 1 choice between 2 powers at a single late point in leveling.

 

That sound really bad.

I was pretty much over it after talking to the first contact or two. It was not long after it came out and/or went F2P.

 

But I have to say that tunneling did look interesting, but seems to be too easy to escape with.

 

 

I could see this kind of travel implemented in CoH as a teleport that that can only target a surface (probably only the ground like other target attacks) with a digging animation at the start and popping out of the ground animation at the end. I can't see it as any kind of prolonged "out of combat" situation unless they put a phase shifting sort of timer/end cost on it, but that doesn't really work either as if you phase shift you can fight against other phase shifted opponents, and I don't see how you would handle two tunneling characters fighting one another while in tunneling mode.

 

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

No, the request is to create an I win button and simply bypass the levels.

 

It's been brought up a ton of times before, and I don't see the build up to that based on the rest of the post.

 

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

I disagree with doing so, but that is what the I win button in the thread is for.

 

I disagree as well, but I've seen at least one thread like this before.

We definitely can't have this now as it can be used immediately to lock in character names permanently.

 

They do have access to the Temporal Warriors if they want an insta-50 to PVP. 

[agentx5]

On 10/11/2022 at 8:22 AM, Starhammer said:

So for me, I'd love to be able to pick whatever powers at whatever level (frankly I'd like to mix and match from different sets at that... 3-4 different melee sets, or combine dual pistols and assault rifle... etc), but in my case it's because I value form over function in this game. Obviously, function matters. Doesn't matter how cool I look if I faceplant at the start of every mob. That's just not fun for me. But as long as I have a smooth attack sequence, and I can win most of the combats I involve myself in if I pay attention and don't do anything too stupid, it's gonna be the choreography that turns my crank. To that end, I'd much rather have more options, and the scale the invisible math for "balance." I'd also rather not have to take "throw away powers" in order to select later ones. Kick is pretty cool for most characters... but not all, and those characters may want/need Tough or Weave, and then they have to have Boxing or Kick to qualify, even if they'll just get removed from the power tray and forgotten. The issue with primary and secondary pools is at least a little less obnoxious, since higher level powers aren't locked out until you get certain lower level ones (at least now that Secondaries can skip T1), but still, more options is always better, in my view.

Obviously, development resources are limited, and only so much can be done... But I can see and agree with many aspects of both sides of this issue. I think, if the necessary resources were available, the optimal way of progressing power selection would be to alter a power's base functionality depending on at what level you select it... (essentially, that would mean making a slightly different version of each power for each selection level... lots of work). So if you take your "Nuke" at T1, that's fine, but it will always be a small time power, even if it scales when you level, it won't scale as advantageously as a power selected at a higher level... on the other hand, taking Flares at level 48, once enhanced, would incinerate the Devil himself. But this way, powers selected earlier would be less apt to upset game balance at those early levels, and at the same time, a character could have the sequence of powers best suited to them, whether that be for form, function, or both.

 

Progression and inventory management are not "roleplay," at least not inherently, even if you choose for them to be represented as such in your narrative. P&IM can certainly coexist with RP, but are no substitute for it. Also, as supers go, some characters really do start out by exploding and eventually learn to suppress their full power and use it more precisely with practice and experience, and that's just as valid a playstyle as any other. Do what you do.

 

I agree with most of this, and that last paragraph made me laugh (it's true though, it's more of a chore than enjoyment, at least at this point of my life where my "free time" is rather limited)

[agentx5]

On 10/7/2022 at 8:47 AM, Yaliw said:

Maybe we should be nerfing these T8's and T9's that are clearly causing such a massive discussion such as this?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but we aren't arguing about getting powers early. We're arguing about getting certain powers early because they warp thr flow of the game?

 

Maybe its time to nerf T9 nukes.

 

 

 

Or maybe your were trolling... Better have been trolling...  No touchy!!!  It wasn't even an argument from what I could tell, certainly none one that has the solution of: nerf the best AoEs because if we can't agree the T9 powers should go on strike!

 

In all honesty though, AoE's in general should be feared or at least respectable with large numbers of enemies hit (not target cap would be the most ideal) and in the case of a high level AoE damage power, it needs to hit like a freight train... that is on fire... and driven by a crazy hamster of doooooom who wants to kill all the humans.

 

Also this is a game about superheroes and supervillains.  I'd like to have characters that feel super.

 

It's not City of Mediocre Vigilantes and City of Ordinary Criminals.  🤣  As amusing as those titles may sound, I suspect it would lose interest quickly.  But you are welcome to setup your own CoH server and try!   Who knows, I mean people spend extreme amounts of time collecting virtual objects in survival MMO games right?  (Day-Z, Rust, Ark, Eve Online, etc...)

 

I already laid bare my intentions for why I personally find value in spending time in CoH.  Tried to add something with value and heartfelt meaning.  Ah well... Was worth a try...

 

[agentx5]

On 10/7/2022 at 8:47 AM, Yaliw said:

Maybe we should be nerfing these T8's and T9's that are clearly causing such a massive discussion such as this?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but we aren't arguing about getting powers early. We're arguing about getting certain powers early because they warp thr flow of the game?

 

Maybe its time to nerf T9 nukes.

 

 

 

Or maybe your were trolling... Better have been trolling...  No touchy!!!  It wasn't even an argument from what I could tell, certainly none one that has the solution of: nerf the best AoEs because if we can't agree the T9 powers should go on strike!

 

In all honesty though, AoE's in general should be feared or at least respectable with large numbers of enemies hit (not target cap would be the most ideal) and in the case of a high level AoE damage power, it needs to hit like a freight train... that is on fire... and driven by a crazy hamster of doooooom who wants to kill all the humans.

 

Also this is a game about superheroes and supervillains.  I'd like to have characters that feel super.

 

It's not City of Mediocre Vigilantes and City of Ordinary Criminals.  🤣  As amusing as those titles may sound, I suspect it would lose interest quickly.  But you are welcome to setup your own CoH server and try!   Who knows, I mean people spend extreme amounts of time collecting virtual objects in survival MMO games right?  (Day-Z, Rust, Ark, Eve Online, etc...)

 

I already laid bare my intentions for why I personally find value in spending time in CoH.  Tried to add something with value and heartfelt meaning.  Ah well... Was worth a try...

 

[biostem]

15 hours ago, Rudra said:

Also conveniently ignored in those comparisons are that CO is mostly archetypes. You have to buy each and every slot you want as a free form.

It didn't start that way.  When CO was subscription-only, everyone was freeform.  It's also a vastly different animal, as you can only slot 1 "passive" ability at a time, which basically represents your entire armor set or focus.  There are also no enhancements - you can rank up powers, and some have special effects you can unlock.  There's also a sort of tiered role-tree, where you put points into it as you level - each tier represents a role, like melee damage or tanking.  There also isn't really status protection in the same sense as CoH - if you get mezzed, you have to actively press button the controller or keyboard to break out, or use 1 of a select few powers that provide that specific effect.  A large proportion of powers also have absolutely no cooldown at all, so as long as you have the energy, you can cast that top-tier attack over and over again without pause, 9save for the animation time).  At the same time, many powers either require you to first charge them up to get max damage, or to actively maintain them, thereby locking you out of doing other things in the meantime.  I got a lifetime sub back when the game was in beta, and I hardly touch it anymore - you basically cherry-pick a few "best" powers that work in all circumstances, then others for flavor.  You have your "energy builder" that keeps you fueled, and everything else is just icing.  Oh, and you can target yourself in CO, so buffs are very weak and/or very short-lived as a result...

Edited October 12, 2022 by biostem

[Yaliw]

22 minutes ago, agentx5 said:

 

 

 

Or maybe your were trolling... Better have been trolling...  No touchy!!!  It wasn't even an argument from what I could tell, certainly none one that has the solution of: nerf the best AoEs because if we can't agree the T9 powers should go on strike!

 

In all honesty though, AoE's in general should be feared or at least respectable with large numbers of enemies hit (not target cap would be the most ideal) and in the case of a high level AoE damage power, it needs to hit like a freight train... that is on fire... and driven by a crazy hamster of doooooom who wants to kill all the humans.

 

Also this is a game about superheroes and supervillains.  I'd like to have characters that feel super.

 

It's not City of Mediocre Vigilantes and City of Ordinary Criminals.  🤣  As amusing as those titles may sound, I suspect it would lose interest quickly.  But you are welcome to setup your own CoH server and try!   Who knows, I mean people spend extreme amounts of time collecting virtual objects in survival MMO games right?  (Day-Z, Rust, Ark, Eve Online, etc...)

 

I already laid bare my intentions for why I personally find value in spending time in CoH.  Tried to add something with value and heartfelt meaning.  Ah well... Was worth a try...

 

It was primarily an attempt to see why people don't like these level changes. I don't think the T8's or T9's are too strong but I figured the people not wanting this change thought the T8's and T9's were (and thus not a good idea at lower levels) and that's why they are so vehemently against this change.

 

So far they say that these powers are not too strong even at these new obtainable levels so I genuinely have no idea what their argument is other than precedence; which is a weak argument for or against something.

 

I see I got down voted because people didn't read into that context but this is the internet so that's my fault.

[Rudra]

13 minutes ago, biostem said:

It didn't start that way.  When CO was subscription-only, everyone was freeform.  It's also a vastly different animal, as you can only slot 1 "passive" ability at a time, which basically represents your entire armor set or focus.  There are also no enhancements - you can rank up powers, and some have special effects you can unlock.  There's also a sort of tiered role-tree, where you put points into it as you level - each tier represents a role, like melee damage or tanking.  There also isn't really status protection in the same sense as CoH - if you get mezzed, you have to actively press button the controller or keyboard to break out, or use 1 of a select few powers that provide that specific effect.  A large proportion of powers also have absolutely no cooldown at all, so as long as you have the energy, you can cast that top-tier attack over and over again without pause, 9save for the animation time).  At the same time, many powers either require you to first charge them up to get max damage, or to actively maintain them, thereby locking you out of doing other things in the meantime.  I got a lifetime sub back when the game was in beta, and I hardly touch it anymore - you basically cherry-pick a few "best" powers that work in all circumstances, then others for flavor.  You have your "energy builder" that keeps you fueled, and everything else is just icing.  Oh, and you can target yourself in CO, so buffs are very weak and/or very short-lived as a result...

We're getting off track, but I also bought a lifetime subscription when CO came out. And unless you had a paid subscription, you only got to play archetypes. Then they changed it so that there were now 2 tiers of free forms. And yes, a lot of the powers were charge to use (or the power was worthless) or hold to maintain (locking you out of other powers). And for as long as CoX was not available, players would spend an amazing amount of time on CO talking about how perfect CoX was and how lousy CO is. So seeing comparisons between CoX and CO on the HC forums where CO is portrayed favorably is mind-blowing.

 

(Edit: And they also changed it so that even if you had a lifetime subscription, you needed to buy new gold free form slots. Though you got the silver ones for free for having the lifetime subscription. Unless they changed that again. I stopped bothering with CO when I found HC. It has no new content since its release, it had considerable content removed because they related to the crafting system they scrapped, and it doesn't even seem to get the required server maintenance it needs.)

Edited October 12, 2022 by Rudra