Devs, please explain why you are nerfing one of the most popular activities on Homecoming

[Indystruck]

if I spawned Caleb solo then I'm killing him solo too

[DougGraves]

5 hours ago, Krimson said:

No, that's still a thing. But if you do it solo, be prepared for comments from the Reward Merit Farming Collective who feel that all Giant Monster hunts should involve holding hands in a big mob so you can boot stomp the poor thing with zero effort. 😄

 

That's not so bad.  In Guild Wars 2 events spawn other events in chains - which is cool.  But they can spawn different events depending on whether you succeed or fail.

 

In some cases players want the rewards from an event that only happens if an event fails and spawns a specific event.  So then you get into trouble if you try to succeed at the event.  The other players yell at you  for not letting the event fail so they can get better loot.

[Songseven]

7 hours ago, Arbegla said:

So I'm late to the party, but did they nerf GM/AV hunting? Because that's my most popular activity on Homecoming.

 

 

the bots/trap legend!😘

[CaptTastic]

Apologies for coming to this topic late, but I’d like to add my voice to the debate if I may. 
 

I have never enjoyed farming personally, but never seen any problem with those that do. It’s what they enjoy doing, how they want to spend THEIR time, and it doesn’t impact me in any meaningful way, so I don’t see any need for the anger some direct at them. It’s not my place to tell them how to play CoH or judge. 

 

At the same time, I have a huge amount of gratitude for the Devs, and the last thing those people should be accused of is trying to spoil anyone’s fun. Every bit of fun that any of us have in CoH is because of the Devs. Let us never forget that. 
 

So I guess what I’m saying is that my position is one of compassion. Fire Farmers: I sympathise with you. It must be frustrating to feel you’ve lost a part of the game you love, and doubly so when your honest expressions of those frustrations are met with the gloating of others.
 

I’m certain the Devs are just doing what they honestly believe is right for the game, though, as they always have done. And, personally, I think they’ve done a great job with that. 

[biostem]

TBH, I don't think the issue is with the farmers themselves, but with the people who haven't really had any experience with leveling up the traditional way, thereby having an expectation of leveling speed and rewards-per-hour that is way out of whack...

[Neiska]

6 hours ago, biostem said:

TBH, I don't think the issue is with the farmers themselves, but with the people who haven't really had any experience with leveling up the traditional way, thereby having an expectation of leveling speed and rewards-per-hour that is way out of whack...

 

Or perhaps, just perhaps mind you, some of us have already done so and find it to be an unfriendly, unfun, agonizing experience that we have already done numerous times. Personally, my biggest turnoff to "the traditional way" is the GOGOGOGOGO mentality. Every group you join zips off as fast as possible, and if you lag behind it can turn toxic pretty quick.

 

I would rather play at my own pace, doing an activity I enjoy alone, than be corralled into doing an activity I might enjoy with a growing community of randoms that gets worse with time. Here is a short list of things I have experienced -

You don't play the meta? Then you are trash.

Don't play X, Y, or Z? Trash.

Didn't take X power from a set? Trash.

You are slow? Kicked.

Never done this before? Sorry, the next group can explain it to you.

Don't have team teleport or X optional power? What are you even doing here?

You play X AT? Garbage. We will kick you to make room for someone else.

The best one though? Getting booted from a team because I am deaf and couldn't hear glowies. That one took the cake. In all my online experience I have never had that happen in any other game until now.

 

You want to know why so many of us farmers rather play entirely alone or with friends? That is a hint as to why. 2 years ago it wasn't so bad, but now it's seriously starting to resemble other games like WoW now, with the "git gud" attitude.

 

And if it comes down to it, where I can't just have fun in my own way and have no option than to play with the "gogogo meta git gud crowd", I'll uninstall and play something else. My joy of the game doesn't override the BS that can come with teaming with randoms.

 

So no, I respectfully decline the "traditional" way. 

[Glacier Peak]

4 minutes ago, Neiska said:

Or perhaps, just perhaps mind you, some of us have already done so and find it to be an unfriendly, unfun, agonizing experience that we have already done numerous times. Personally, my biggest turnoff to "the traditional way" is the GOGOGOGOGO mentality. Every group you join zips off as fast as possible, and if you lag behind it can turn toxic pretty quick.

 

I would rather play at my own pace, doing an activity I enjoy alone, than be corralled into doing an activity I might enjoy with a growing community of randoms that gets worse with time. Here is a short list of things I have experienced -

You don't play the meta? Then you are trash.

Don't play X, Y, or Z? Trash.

Didn't take X power from a set? Trash.

You are slow? Kicked.

Never done this before? Sorry, the next group can explain it to you.

Don't have team teleport or X optional power? What are you even doing here?

You play X AT? Garbage. We will kick you to make room for someone else.

The best one though? Getting booted from a team because I am deaf and couldn't hear glowies. That one took the cake. In all my online experience I have never had that happen in any other game until now.

 

You want to know why so many of us farmers rather play entirely alone or with friends? That is a hint as to why. 2 years ago it wasn't so bad, but now it's seriously starting to resemble other games like WoW now, with the "git gud" attitude.

 

And if it comes down to it, where I can't just have fun in my own way and have no option than to play with the "gogogo meta git gud crowd", I'll uninstall and play something else. My joy of the game doesn't override the BS that can come with teaming with randoms.

 

So no, I respectfully decline the "traditional" way. 

Looks like you're taking a post by another forum goer incredibly personally even though it wasn't addressed towards you or anyone specifically. 

 

And after reading the rest of your post, I can see a lot of attributional language from you. You say things that are actually pretty toxic, which is ironic considering your point is to highlight what you feel is a non inclusive community. All that being said, I can agree with you about playing as you want, within the boundaries set by the Homecoming team of course. 

[battlewraith]

I think it's debatable whether the "traditional" way even exists any more. Traditional to me suggests the experience that people had back in 2004, where lowbies didn't have access to travel powers right away, no prestige power attacks, limited respecs, etc.  I think very few people still playing this game would sign up for that traditional experience. 

[TygerDarkstorm]

13 minutes ago, Neiska said:

 

Or perhaps, just perhaps mind you, some of us have already done so and find it to be an unfriendly, unfun, agonizing experience that we have already done numerous times. Personally, my biggest turnoff to "the traditional way" is the GOGOGOGOGO mentality. Every group you join zips off as fast as possible, and if you lag behind it can turn toxic pretty quick.

 

I would rather play at my own pace, doing an activity I enjoy alone, than be corralled into doing an activity I might enjoy with a growing community of randoms that gets worse with time. Here is a short list of things I have experienced -

You don't play the meta? Then you are trash.

Don't play X, Y, or Z? Trash.

Didn't take X power from a set? Trash.

You are slow? Kicked.

Never done this before? Sorry, the next group can explain it to you.

Don't have team teleport or X optional power? What are you even doing here?

You play X AT? Garbage. We will kick you to make room for someone else.

The best one though? Getting booted from a team because I am deaf and couldn't hear glowies. That one took the cake. In all my online experience I have never had that happen in any other game until now.

 

You want to know why so many of us farmers rather play entirely alone or with friends? That is a hint as to why. 2 years ago it wasn't so bad, but now it's seriously starting to resemble other games like WoW now, with the "git gud" attitude.

 

And if it comes down to it, where I can't just have fun in my own way and have no option than to play with the "gogogo meta git gud crowd", I'll uninstall and play something else. My joy of the game doesn't override the BS that can come with teaming with randoms.

 

So no, I respectfully decline the "traditional" way. 

I play on Everlasting as well and have never experienced any of that, and I've taken some pretty suboptimal characters on things like a +4 (not 4*) ITF, among other task forces. I don't care about things like the meta, and have never had someone kick me because my build is crap or because I didn't take a certain power. Both of our experiences are anecdotal, but imo, yours seems to be far more in the minority of experiences on Everlasting.

[TraumaTrain]

On 11/17/2022 at 5:04 PM, Indystruck said:

if I spawned Caleb solo then I'm killing him solo too

 

Come to Indom. Everything is solo. 

 

[Neiska]

35 minutes ago, TygerDarkstorm said:

Yours seems to be far more in the minority of experiences on Everlasting.

 

According to who? Experiences are personal indeed, but its disingenuous to try to minimalize another's, wouldn't you agree? 

 

45 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

Looks like you're taking a post by another forum goer incredibly personally even though it wasn't addressed towards you or anyone specifically. 

 

And after reading the rest of your post, I can see a lot of attributional language from you. You say things that are actually pretty toxic, which is ironic considering your point is to highlight what you feel is a non inclusive community. All that being said, I can agree with you about playing as you want, within the boundaries set by the Homecoming team of course. 

 

And I disagree with their original post which includes a bland and open opinion about all farmers. If they are allowed to make opinions about all famers, then I am most certainly allowed to voice mine about the random teaming. Moreover, I find it a little illuminating how you addressed my attributional language, but not theirs. And how is what I said toxic? Everything I said has actually happened. Now I doubt my personal experience is the average experience and I suspect we would agree on that. But it's pretty intellectually dishonest to try to minimize that experience while at the same time ignoring it or pretending that part doesn't exist, or that it isn't part of the equation in play either, or that it would impact a player's decision to play alone or do team activities.

 

And in addition, I would like to point out this is exactly what I am talking about. Someone says something suggestive about farmers and it is given a pass. But anytime someone says something about the other part of the community it's given whatever label is convenient at the time. Even if what is said is true based off personal experiences.

 

Example:

"Farmers are bad" - no one but farmers say anything. And, if they do, it's given a rebuttal.

But, if someone says "well, teaming can certainly suck too" - Oh, but that language and opinion is labeled as negative, toxic, undesirable behavior.

 

Double standard.

[Glacier Peak]

8 minutes ago, Neiska said:

And I disagree with their original post which includes a bland and open opinion about all farmers. If they are allowed to make opinions about all famers, then I am most certainly allowed to voice mine about the random teaming. Moreover, I find it a little illuminating how you addressed my attributional language, but not theirs. And how is what I said toxic? Everything I said has actually happened. Now I doubt my personal experience is the average experience and I suspect we would agree on that. But it's pretty intellectually dishonest to try to minimize that experience while at the same time ignoring it or pretending that part doesn't exist, or that it isn't part of the equation in play either, or that it would impact a player's decision to play alone or do team activities.

 

And in addition, I would like to point out this is exactly what I am talking about. Someone says something suggestive about farmers and it is given a pass. But anytime someone says something about the other part of the community it's given whatever label is convenient at the time. Even if what is said is true based off personal experiences.

 

Example:

"Farmers are bad" - no one but farmers say anything. And, if they do, it's given a rebuttal.

But, if someone says "well, teaming can certainly suck too" - Oh, but that language and opinion is labeled as negative, toxic, undesirable behavior.

 

Double standard.

I see my post missed its marked and you immediately went to attacking me. Good luck with other folks trying to have a discussion with you and welcome to my ignore list.

[Neiska]

2 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

I see my post missed its marked and you immediately went to attacking me. Good luck with other folks trying to have a discussion with you and welcome to my ignore list.

 

Thank you for proving my point. I gave an example of a double standard, and you take it personal. All I did was point out that you ignored what he said and addressed mine. But that's fine, you can go on my ignore list too.

[MHertz]

39 minutes ago, Neiska said:

If they are allowed to make opinions about all famers, then I am most certainly allowed to voice mine about the random teaming. Moreover, I find it a little illuminating how you addressed my attributional language, but not theirs.

I have experienced players like you describe, those who are obsessed with speeding through content as a group as fast and as efficiently as possible; I’ve had people criticize my build because I didn’t min-max every available stat (although I haven’t been kicked off a team for it, nor ever seen it happen to someone else that I recall). I sympathize with the idea that other players can ruin the game experience in an MMO.

 

What I am not seeing is the connection between “people are bad” and “therefore, this XP bug should not be fixed” or “this playstyle I enjoy should not be disfavored.” What you describe could equally be a justification for literally any other play choice: market profiteering, PVP, jerk hackers dupin’ rares, etc. Yes, people can behave badly. But this is an MMO, so the devs’ focus has to be balancing the game for multiple players. People critiquing your build happens because powers aren’t balanced properly. People build to speed through missions and Task Forces because rewards aren’t balanced properly (making that behavior itself a kind of farming, the very activity you wish to shield from criticism).

 

I’m sorry you have negative experiences in  a multiplayer game. I don’t think that alone is a reason for the devs to build the game around a solo playstyle you prefer and to make it equally good as team play.

Edited November 20, 2022 by MHertz

[InvaderStych]

1 hour ago, Neiska said:

The best one though? Getting booted from a team because I am deaf and couldn't hear glowies. That one took the cake. In all my online experience I have never had that happen in any other game until now.

 

This is completely unacceptable.

 

For what it is worth, I am sorry that you had this encounter with people too narcissistic to employ common sense or decency. 

[Ignatz the Insane]

32 minutes ago, Neiska said:

And I disagree with their original post which includes a bland and open opinion about all farmers. If they are allowed to make opinions about all famers, then I am most certainly allowed to voice mine about the random teaming.

 

8 hours ago, biostem said:

TBH, I don't think the issue is with the farmers themselves, but with the people who haven't really had any experience with leveling up the traditional way, thereby having an expectation of leveling speed and rewards-per-hour that is way out of whack...

 

I didn't see this as an attack against all farmers.  I'm pretty sure Biostem was talking about new or returning players whose only experience leveling was via AE.  This isn't a defense or agreement with their statement, just my own interpretation of their post.  

 

I'm sorry your teaming experiences were abysmal.   Each person's experiences are unique to them.  In this case, however, I think you're attributing malice where none exists.  

[Neiska]

6 minutes ago, MHertz said:

I have experienced players like you describe, those who are obsessed with speeding through content as a group as fast and as efficiently as possible; I’ve had people criticize my build because I didn’t min-max every available stat (although I haven’t been kicked off a team for it, nor ever seen it happen to someone else that I recall). I sympathize with the idea that other players can ruin the game experience in an MMO.

 

What I am not seeing is the connection between “people are bad” and “therefore, this XP bug should not be fixed” or “this playstyle I enjoy should not be disfavored.” What you describe could equally be a justification for literally any other play choice: market profiteering, PVP, jerk hackers dupin’ rares, etc. Yes, people can behave badly. But this is an MMO, so the devs’ focus has to be balancing the game for multiple players. People critiquing your build happens because powers aren’t balanced properly. People build to speed through missions and Task Forces because rewards aren’t balanced properly (making that behavior itself a kind of farming, the very activity you wish to shield from criticism).

 

I’m sorry you have negative experiences in  a multiplayer game. I don’t think that alone is a reason for the devs to build the game around a solo playstyle you prefer and to make it equally good as team play.

 

Oh, I agree wholeheartedly. The internet is going to internet and people are going to be people. But I never made the case about bugs shouldn't be fixed, or that things shouldn't be balanced. My original reply was to the original post that suggested players who enjoyed farming have unrealistic expectations and that's why they don't like random teaming. Some people like farming simply because they find it more enjoyable, or at least more enjoyable than other activities. There is no "right" or "wrong" in this. Different people are going to like different things. That is normal, to be expected in fact. But I do tire of seeing negative sterotypes about farmers and the moment you point out that there is negativity in teaming and that not every "nonfarmer" is a saint then people light their pitchforks.

[Neiska]

3 minutes ago, Ignatz the Insane said:

I'm sorry your teaming experiences were abysmal.   Each person's experiences are unique to them.  In this case, however, I think you're attributing malice where none exists.  

 

I thank you and @InvaderStych 's kind words. But I do think there is malice, at least in part. Both there, and in the forums and discord as well. And personally, I don't care what the activity is or what the reward is. If there is malice present, I simply will not take part. And if there isn't malice, it certainly feels like it at times. If you enjoy certain activities or point out certain things you are shunned, shouted down or given the brand of cain.

Honestly, it might be better for everyone if those that disagree begin to just ignore one another but were I a betting woman I would bet that wouldn't be what's best for the game either. But that's just me musing.

[MHertz]

1 hour ago, Ignatz the Insane said:

I didn't see this as an attack against all farmers.  I'm pretty sure Biostem was talking about new or returning players whose only experience leveling was via AE.  This isn't a defense or agreement with their statement, just my own interpretation of their post.  

I interpret the post that way also.

 

However, I question whether the problem (“I met a player who doesn’t know how to XYZ”) can attributable to that cause (“because they got power-leveled or fire farmed to 50”).

 

Take a basic skill some veterans complain about: familiarity with the city map. They’ll recall a time when someone didn’t know where Steel Canyon was. But that’s not just an artifact of farms. AE, mission teleporting, team teleporting, Ouroboros portals, Task Force max-level auto exemplar, the combining of the train lines, base passcodes leading to free citywide teleport stations, and other features of convenience have contributed to a game where the perception is that travel is dead time, and travel powers should be evaluated for their combat advantages.

I can’t believe that all the players who can’t navigate to Steel Canyon are fresh-off-the-boat newbies to a 15-year-old game with no advertising presence, who logged in the first time and fell into a fire farm on accident. Even if that is the problem, destroying fire farms does not push toward the solution — maybe instead require players to visit a level-appropriate trainer, instead of going to Miss Liberty for everything.

[MHertz]

1 hour ago, Neiska said:

But I do tire of seeing negative sterotypes about farmers

As do I. As I’ve said before in this thread, every player (other than a level 2 pure RPer) seeks advantages, not disadvantages. Labeling one kind of advantage “farming” while excusing others with the label “the normal way” is arbitrary at best.

[Glacier Peak]

Good points now that we're back on topic.

 

There was an amalgamation enemy group uniquely created this past summer - one of the enemies provided a lot of xp. I think somewhere around x10 xp/in than normal.

 

Then the new Halloween Elite Bosses were added this Fall which provided x5 xp/inf.

 

I think an casual observer could conclude that the Homecoming team isn't against farming and that their changes to the AE are meant to address game stability and the long term health of the game. 

[BlackSpectre]

Just to add my voice... I know I've been saying I have no problems with the changes. My toons appeared to handle the changes fine. I liked the extra aggro from by-standing enemies not involved in the fight but within aggro/perception range. And then... finally... RNG kicked in. My fire farming toon was killed 3 times. After that, he had to RETREAT to a more isolated spot to reduce the aggro, and the number of times mobs get to roll the to-hit dice. The 3% Defense Debuff from fire sword when COMBINED with 3-6 times more chances for mobs to hit you ends up being a very deadly combination!  I normally run Story of a Real Big Dog on the asteroid map. 

 

I've raised my fire defense up to 50%, but that doesn't seem to help. I'm eventually gong to try to make fire defense higher, maybe 55% to 59%, ... but it won't be easy and will require a complete reworking. That will take a lot of time. 

 

Another thing I just noticed, and I have no idea when this change was made.... but Real Big Dog now gives 25% less influence than it did the last time I looked into it! That's a BIG HIT.  I understand the XP changes,  but what happened to Influence gain???

 

Last time I checked, Read Big Dog yielded 3,444,894 inf per run. Now it yields 2,524,350 inf per run. 

 

What happened??? Did I miss discussion about lowering influence gain or something?

 

 

[Neiska]

25 minutes ago, BlackSpectre said:

Just to add my voice... I know I've been saying I have no problems with the changes. My toons appeared to handle the changes fine. I liked the extra aggro from by-standing enemies not involved in the fight but within aggro/perception range. And then... finally... RNG kicked in. My fire farming toon was killed 3 times. After that, he had to RETREAT to a more isolated spot to reduce the aggro, and the number of times mobs get to roll the to-hit dice. The 3% Defense Debuff from fire sword when COMBINED with 3-6 times more chances for mobs to hit you ends up being a very deadly combination!  I normally run Story of a Real Big Dog on the asteroid map. 

 

I've raised my fire defense up to 50%, but that doesn't seem to help. I'm eventually gong to try to make fire defense higher, maybe 55% to 59%, ... but it won't be easy and will require a complete reworking. That will take a lot of time. 

 

Another thing I just noticed, and I have no idea when this change was made.... but Real Big Dog now gives 25% less influence than it did the last time I looked into it! That's a BIG HIT.  I understand the XP changes,  but what happened to Influence gain???

 

Last time I checked, Read Big Dog yielded 3,444,894 inf per run. Now it yields 2,524,350 inf per run. 

 

What happened??? Did I miss discussion about lowering influence gain or something?

 

 

 

Your question is multi-layered, but I hope to answer best I can.

 

1. The reason why you are taking more damage is firstly, if you are fire, some fire primaries do -def now which you seem to be aware of. However they also changed the AI. Before if you were at aggro cap (and alone) the other mobs would twiddle their thumbs, or idly mill about meekly waiting their turn. That isn't the case anymore. Now they will use ranged attacks, if they have any. So you are facing more attacks than previously. The counters to this depends if you are an active farmer or afk farmer. But I would urge a bit more +def, plus ranged def as well, coupled with higher resists and/or passive regen. If you have to be selective, personally I've found that having a higher ranged defense and regen goes a long way. Many farming builds don't even look at ranged or regen, but that also largely depends if you are an active or inactive farmer. An active farmer wasn't as affected as inactive ones in most cases.

 

2. The amount gained was indirectly "nerfed," as in it wasn't targeted specifically like EXP was. Now it matters what you fight and what powers they have. A mob with few attacks and no ranged abilities won't give full INF. (I am uncertain if this affects their EXP as well, but I don't believe it does.) Some of the older maps with mobs just thrown together can award less INF compared to before. But many of the newer maps with actually well made enemies to fight award more closely than what you might be used to. My advice is to try some of the newer maps, or make your own.

 

Hope this helps

[BlackSpectre]

26 minutes ago, Neiska said:

 

Thanks man. I'm an active farmer... but the changes still have a pretty big impact. Once my fire defense is floored to 10% or less, my health goes down so quickly that I need to retreat... even when using my heal. They just slaughter me if I stand my ground. Yes, I'm at 90% fire resistance and something like 85% S/L resistance.

 

When using my Lore pet, the situation changes drastically. The pet takes enough aggro to make any Defense Debuff much smaller. So I can see dual boxing, using 2 toons, as an effective counter... even without changing my farmer's stats. But dual boxing is a pain.

 

The AE map, The Story of a Real Big Dog, is a classic fire farm. The mobs have both ranged and melee attacks, and they are well built. Deadly. So I'm at a loss as to why they're now giving less influence. They should actually give more. They are far more deadly now than they ever were!

 

I have tried some newer Page 5 fire maps made by people to maximize inf gain, but it's the same amount as I'm getting from Real Big Dog (I convert everything into inf gained per hour (inf/hr).  With Real Big Dog I was about to make about 41 million inf per hour. Now it's 30 mil.

Edited November 20, 2022 by BlackSpectre

[Glacier Peak]

19 minutes ago, BlackSpectre said:

The AE map, The Story of a Real Big Dog, is a classic fire farm. The mobs have both ranged and melee attacks, and they are well built. Deadly. So I'm at a loss as to why they're now giving less influence. They should actually give more. They are far more deadly now than they ever were!

The individual who made the custom enemy group needs to add an additional attack in order to achieve the full 100% of allowable XP/Inf to drop for their custom critters.