Why tanker?

[Ultimo]

So... I'm wrestling with a quandry.

I've always played Tankers.  I just like the durability.  However, I've recently had an eye-opening experience.

 

My main tanker, the Canadian Shield (though he still can't get his NAME), is Invulnerability and Super Strength.  I recently finished the Freaklympics arc, and it took me FOREVER.  The final mission took around 3 hours, because it took SO long to defeat every foe, who would heal before defeat, then ressurect, then heal again before defeat, then finally be defeated.  Add to that the nonstop endurance drains making the horrendous endurance management of the game even WORSE... and it was just no fun at all.

 

Then I went to my Submariner homage character.  He's a Brute, using Street Justice and Willpower.  Now, he wasn't doing the same story arc, but absolutely everything he did just felt FAR easier.  He was still PLENTY durable, and just never seemed to have any endurance woes.  On top of that, he was doing 2-3 TIMES as much damage as the Canadian Shield was doing.

 

It left me questioning why I would play a tanker at all... and left me questioning several of my characters.

 

The Canadian Shield uses Super Strength, which I always found underwhelming, and Invulnerability, which seems GREATLY inferior to Willpower.

The Stalwart Star is a Shield Defense/Martial Arts tanker, who runs out of endurance in seconds, despite having two endurance reduction in ALL his attacks and toggles, PLUS Performance Shifter, Panacea and Numina's in Stamina and Health.

Marshal Mantic is a tanker using Dark Armour (though, I'm not decided on this, I'd rather have less obvious effects) and Radiation Melee... but I'm really debating whether to stick with the tanker.

 

A large part of my problems on most of my characters is that they're nearly impossible to play without them running out of endurance in seconds.  I abandoned my Electric Control/Force Field controller, my Storm/Electric Blast defender, and many other characters ENTIRELY because they couldn't use their powers without being out of endurance after defeating EVERY foe.  That controller would defeat one minion, then PFF until his endurance came back, then defeat one more minion... then run away because PFF hadn't recharged yet, and he couldn't fight anymore.  Honestly, it was THIS problem that made me quit playing CoH back when the game was live.

 

In any case, the issue I'm working through now is whether to remake my tankers as brutes... whether to abandon sets like Super Strength, Martial Arts and Invulnerability (which are just too endurance heavy) for other sets, like Street Justice?

 

I'm feeling quite torn.

[Sovera]

Tankers do more damage if you load on procs and play specific sets. Unfortunately a tanker build to tank and not playing those sets and not loading on procs is behind a Brute by a noticeable margin.

 

Either abandon building like a tank because Tanker baseline is sturdier than anything else and will survive 90% of the game, or play a Brute.

 

It really depends on what you intend to do with the character. If you're going to tank for teams you should build a certain way, if you're going to solo you should build another way, if you're going to team the new hardmodes you definitely ought to build yet another way. If you're going to play with a static group and do the Hardmodes you can go back to 'normal' builds since it relies more on cycling incarnates.

 

My infamous fire armor builds could and did tank most 'normal' content (normal ITFs, Lord Recluse, etc) and even some 801 content but I would not trust them on a Hardmode, but they are great to solo and team for normal content since they avoid that slow whittling of enemies pitfall you mention since I purposefully build as sturdy as I can and then dedicate everything else to do damage.

 

 

That said they have been completely outclassed by the 'new' builds that load on procs and clear tests in half the time my best Tankers took to do it.

 

 

By the way, your endurance problems should not be as dire as you put it. It sounds a lot like you're playing with generic IOs and not slotting appropriately. This is a build problem and not so much a character problem but fortunately not a difficult thing to fix. Try posting them on the appropriate forums, and while at it check Infinitum's thread on the Tanker forums for SS and Invuln builds.

 

Heck, you mention Martial Arts and one of my best builds is still a Fire/MA Tanker with 45% defense to melee/ranged/AoE while also having 90% resists to most.

[C U R S E]

This really does sound like a build problem fir sure. I have a Shield/Dark tanker and he is an absolute beast with no end issues.

[Gobbledigook]

A Brute will always out damage a Tanker. Procs or no procs. Tankers do get extra AoE though which helps a lot, but on bosses the Brute will win but be less durable. Procs and +recharge really help a Tankers dps.

 

You have done some of these but Panacea, miracle and Numina in health and performance Shifter in endo will help. There is also the +recovery temporary power from the P2W vendor. Slotting attacks/toggles with endurance will help. Incarnate can help with endurance if you are there yet. Eat inspirations. Get buffed by team mates.

 

Willpower does have extra +recovery in it but Invulnerability is superior usually.

 

Rage crash costs endurance.

 

When fully built an Invuln/SS Tanker should not have too many endurance issues and will be really tough. With procs/+recharge they will still do respectable damage also.

 

 

[Gobbledigook]

What part is the thumbs down for @Astralock? Which part do you disagree on?

 

 I have a Brute that will take down a Pylon far faster than any Tanker. Tankers have extra AoE but Brutes just hit harder.

Edited October 27, 2022 by Gobbledegook

[drbuzzard]

This question comes down to teaming vs. solo IMO. If you  want to tank for a team, go tank. While a brute can do this with the right build, it is ultimately easier to make a tough tank, and the ceiling is higher for durability. 

 

If you want to solo missions, a brute will definitely be better since they are damage focused. 

 

Aside from that super strength has known issues, and when the devs tried to fix it a niche crowd howled like it was the end of the world, so I doubt it will get fixed any time soon. The change in when powers are available does help the set a fair bit since you can avoid jab now. 

[PLVRIZR]

7 hours ago, Ultimo said:

...and Invulnerability, which seems GREATLY inferior to Willpower.

 

 

I have a WP/Fiery Melee tanker that I love.  He's VL 124.  Can main tank 99% of the game's (non-HM) content.  The lack of DDR makes him *significantly* less durable than my Inv builds, when facing debuffers.  When the $hit is gonna hit the fan, I always reach for Inv (Shield is next).

 

YMMV and I openly admit to being an Inv fanboy (just look at my toon list)...

[PeregrineFalcon]

24 minutes ago, PLVRIZR said:

The lack of DDR makes him *significantly* less durable than my Inv builds, when facing debuffers.

I was just about to post this very thing when I saw your post.

 

I have two level 50 tanks that I love playing. Invuln/EM and Will/SS. I love playing the Will/SS because Super Strength is just hilarious fun and I really enjoy not having End issues. He's tough, but the moment enemies start piling on the debuffs he crumples.

 

My main is Invuln for a reason. It's much tougher than Willpower, especially with the right IOs.

[Ultimo]

Thanks for the thoughts, all.

 

I suppose I'll stick with the power sets I'm using.  However, this still leaves the question, Tanker or Brute?  I solo 90% of the time, so perhaps I'd be better off Tankering... but I do enjoy the durability...

 

Well, I won't be deleting anything yet.

 

Oh, and I should say, I'm not using any sets or IOs, my characters are all using SOs, since they're all around L30.  Seemed a waste to make IOs I'd outlevel fairly quickly.  My endurance related ones (ie. Performance Shifter, etc.) are all... infused(?  don't have a level, I'm not sure this is the term), so the level doesn't matter.

 

Once they get to 50, I'll worry about more elaborate slotting.

[Sovera]

17 minutes ago, Ultimo said:

Thanks for the thoughts, all.

 

I suppose I'll stick with the power sets I'm using.  However, this still leaves the question, Tanker or Brute?  I solo 90% of the time, so perhaps I'd be better off Tankering... but I do enjoy the durability...

 

Well, I won't be deleting anything yet.

 

Oh, and I should say, I'm not using any sets or IOs, my characters are all using SOs, since they're all around L30.  Seemed a waste to make IOs I'd outlevel fairly quickly.  My endurance related ones (ie. Performance Shifter, etc.) are all... infused(?  don't have a level, I'm not sure this is the term), so the level doesn't matter.

 

Once they get to 50, I'll worry about more elaborate slotting.

 

That's your problem right there. By level 30 you have access to 90% of the IOs your level 50 build will be using with the exception of purples. Accept the advice given and start splurging on the recovery uniques and slotting the cheaper stuff. The term you're looking for is attuned and that's what 90% of your IOs will be even in your level 50 maxed out build.

 

Bare minimum check the P2W vendor and buy the Recovery Serums which are cheap as heck and coupled with Hasten will fix a lot of your endurance problems. If you happen to not know how to sell merits check the guide in my signature.

 

Do post your current build and someone will help so that you can have more fun. As you've pointed out playing with bare bones makes for a very miserable experience robbing the fun of logging on.

 

I'm rootin' for ya.

[Biff Pow]

The good news is Super Strength Tankers now get Rage at 24 and Footstomp at 30, so that long haul with only single target attacks is a little shorter. I deal with endurance through the 20s with Inspirations, which isn't too hard because End ones are generally the only ones a Tank needs. I would add IOs as you level up instead of waiting until level 50 (buy attuned if you can afford it.) Two slots of Unbreakable Guard give a 2.5% End discount, in all five resist powers it's pretty noticeable.

[Gobbledigook]

I would still love to know why i got a thumbs down from @Astralock for trying to help lol. Doesn't really matter but it is weird.

 

I presume it is the dps statement but that is my opinion as i can get under 90 seconds pylon on a Brute. I can not understand it otherwise.

[twozerofoxtrot]

15 hours ago, Ultimo said:

 I recently finished the Freaklympics arc, and it took me FOREVER.

 

Don't feel bad about this, because that arc is tough. Freaks are annoying, especially when solo, melee, and without countermeasures. They self heal, rez, and drain your endurance. 

 

That's a big yikes.

 

I might edit this later when I'm in front of a computer with more detailed feedback if you're interested (I've clocked a lot of time on INV/SS, SD/MA, & WP/MA Tankers as well as a  SS/WP Brute), but I think you've gotten a lot of good suggestions here already. 

[Biff Pow]

I was JUST fighting Freakshow, and my strategy for them is to have the right combo to avoid their heals. At level 27, I can beat +1 minions with a simple Jab, Punch, Haymaker (Haymaker always last) with Rage running. I hit Lts. with KO Blow and they can be finished off before they recover from the hold. The Tank Bosses are tougher, but sometimes I luck out with a well-timed KO Blow. Super Stunners are a pain though, I try to jump away as a I throw my final shot to avoid their rez, but that doesn't work very often.

[Warboss]

22 hours ago, PLVRIZR said:

YMMV and I openly admit to being an Inv fanboy (just look at my toon list)...

 

We really need to get you to embrace Radiation... 😝

[PeregrineFalcon]

18 hours ago, Ultimo said:

I suppose I'll stick with the power sets I'm using.  However, this still leaves the question, Tanker or Brute?  I solo 90% of the time, so perhaps I'd be better off Tankering... but I do enjoy the durability...

If you mostly solo you should play Brute or Scrapper. If you team some Brute or Tanker. If you team a lot, and want to play the role, then Tanker.

 

Tankers just have far more survivability than is necessary for soloing and, because of their low damage output, soling with them can be slow and boring. Brutes have a mix of toughness and damage output that is great for soloers.

[Cancrusher]

I mostly agree with PeregrineFalcon, here.  Tanks are cool, but it can be challenging to make them damaging enough to complete missions solo, in a timely fashion.  I have a Rad/TW that does a pretty solid job, but my brutes will just generally clear a map much faster (for the most part).

 

Also, I have always had issues making INV builds able to tackle endurance issues.  For this reason, I have pretty much avoided them.  You might take a look at some of @Hyperstrike builds, as they're considered one of the best Tank builders in the game.  Should have some builds (though, no doubt, expensive) that should address this problem for you.

 

After trying a 3 Star ITF for the first time, a few days ago, I'm thinking of using a Hyperstrike build chassis, myself.  I never used to care about building for that level of performance, but the new difficulty settings have finally kindled my interest in exploring performance builds (and also, in chasing my T4 Incarnates, which I had previously never bothered with).  😁👍

[Mezmera]

21 hours ago, Sovera said:

 

That's your problem right there. By level 30 you have access to 90% of the IOs your level 50 build will be using with the exception of purples. Accept the advice given and start splurging on the recovery uniques and slotting the cheaper stuff. The term you're looking for is attuned and that's what 90% of your IOs will be even in your level 50 maxed out build.

 

Bare minimum check the P2W vendor and buy the Recovery Serums which are cheap as heck and coupled with Hasten will fix a lot of your endurance problems. If you happen to not know how to sell merits check the guide in my signature.

 

Do post your current build and someone will help so that you can have more fun. As you've pointed out playing with bare bones makes for a very miserable experience robbing the fun of logging on.

 

I'm rootin' for ya.

 

Pretty much this. 

 

Any character I plan to play after 30 and not just rush on up to 50 I will stop at 30 to take the time to slot the sets I know I'm going to keep in my build for later on like ATOs and defense/resist sets and slot all of the unique's I'm planning to use.  If it's a character I will mainly use for playing later on exemp'd at all levels I won't have a problem just getting attuned sets and leaving them in the build since the values will level with you if it won't matter much later on about better enhancement values since the full sets tend to get good values on their own even if they aren't +5'd for later on.  

 

Something like Stamina though I will 3 slot one with the performance shifter proc and 2 end mod IOs.  Once I reach 50 I will make those 3 slots all Performance Shifter with the two 50's with end mod being +5 since that end mod is a nice value and that hp boost I won't miss much when exemp'd as much as I would endurance.  

 

It's totally worth the effort to stop and build your character at 30, you can always respec out the sets you won't keep later on and sell them.  

[Erratic1]

@Ultimo,

 

Invulnerability is not great against drains and that will not change regardless of AT using it. Add to Endurance Recovery is lacking on Invulnerability and SS brings not help that way either. So you have somewhat described a worst case scenario as goes Inv/SS. As comparison, I have an StJ/Inv Brute I am currently working on. Drains are anywhere from annoying to potentially deadly and even without sappers running around if I get too happy with non-stop attacking, especially if he is running Focused Awareness, he can end up detoggling. So playing Brute does not mean skipping past the issues you faced.

 

I try to keep in mind when picking a defensive set what it is weak in that will need shoring up. Invulnerability is a fantastic set. What it does not cover is endurance recovery. That is one reason Dark Melee is a great offensive set to pair with it as Dark Melee covers one of Invulnerability's few weaknesses. However, IO sets give you an out for playing offensive sets which do not help in that regard. In particular, Unbreakable Guard's 2-piece bonus is a 2.5% endurance discount and Preventive Medicine offers 3.75% as a 5-piece bonus. Slather in inherent endurance discount for individual powers via individual set enhancements and endurance problems can often be gotten around without resorting to Energy Mastery or dedicating your Alpha to solving endurance problems.

 

[Xandyr]

Why Tanker?

 

 Well, pull up a seat and let me tell you the story...

 

   Once upon a time...

No. Wait.

 

 In a galaxy far...

No, that's not how it goes.

 

A long time ago..

 Still not it.

 

Hmm...

 

Ah yes! Why a tanker?

BECAUSE WE CAN'T STOP!

AND WE WON'T STOP!

BECAUSE WE.

ARE.

GODS.

AMONG.

MEN.

 

Damn right.

/em micdrop🎤

😎

[Hyperstrike]

3 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

@Ultimo,

 

Invulnerability is not great against drains and that will not change regardless of AT using it. Add to Endurance Recovery is lacking on Invulnerability and SS brings not help that way either. So you have somewhat described a worst case scenario as goes Inv/SS. As comparison, I have an StJ/Inv Brute I am currently working on. Drains are anywhere from annoying to potentially deadly and even without sappers running around if I get too happy with non-stop attacking, especially if he is running Focused Awareness, he can end up detoggling. So playing Brute does not mean skipping past the issues you faced.

 

I try to keep in mind when picking a defensive set what it is weak in that will need shoring up. Invulnerability is a fantastic set. What it does not cover is endurance recovery. That is one reason Dark Melee is a great offensive set to pair with it as Dark Melee covers one of Invulnerability's few weaknesses. However, IO sets give you an out for playing offensive sets which do not help in that regard. In particular, Unbreakable Guard's 2-piece bonus is a 2.5% endurance discount and Preventive Medicine offers 3.75% as a 5-piece bonus. Slather in inherent endurance discount for individual powers via individual set enhancements and endurance problems can often be gotten around without resorting to Energy Mastery or dedicating your Alpha to solving endurance problems.

 

Honestly, on a fully build Invuln, you've mitigated most of the problems related to drains.

Stuff actually has to be able to HIT you.
And you have other tools involved in Recovery.
On top of that, considering that resting Endurance consumption can be brought BELOW 1 end/sec (while sitting at 3+ End/sec Recovery.

YES, trying to solo 4* +4x8 is going to wreck you.
The point of that content is team cohesion.
Not everyone standing back while the Tank/Brute  solos it.

[Erratic1]

2 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

Honestly, on a fully build Invuln, you've mitigated most of the problems related to drains.

Stuff actually has to be able to HIT you.
And you have other tools involved in Recovery.
On top of that, considering that resting Endurance consumption can be brought BELOW 1 end/sec (while sitting at 3+ End/sec Recovery.

YES, trying to solo 4* +4x8 is going to wreck you.
The point of that content is team cohesion.
Not everyone standing back while the Tank/Brute  solos it.

 

No substantive disagreement here. Yes, minimizing hits with high defense helps but sometimes there are a lot of things trying and even when not sometimes a hit still lands. In any event you have to get there and not everyone has a billion influence just lying around to fully kit out build while the character is low level. Some people are going to play a substantial portion of time with non-capped defense. 

 

My StJ/Inv Brute's target build has resting endurance consumption of 1.01 end/sec with 4.05 end/rec recovery. Toggling on Focused Accuracy only brings consumption to 1.51 end/sec. With one opponent he is at capped defense. 

 

As for how people play, I try to not presume what people are doing and assume they are doing what is fun for them, though I am pretty sure the OP was not talking about engaging in the most difficult content.