Stamina

[Gobbledigook]

Could we please get a little increase to Stamina please or reduce the cost of some toggles.

 

It is often mentioned that during the leveling process that endurance is a big issue, especially at the lower levels.. AT's that run a lot of toggles struggle more than others. Some powerset combos can include 2 PBAoE auras that drain a lot of endurance on top of other toggles. Also we now have access to toggles earlier with the recent changes but are limited with enhances.

 

I know there are ways to help with endurance but these include IO set bonuses and unique's etc which this game is not supposed to be balanced for and so should not be required. Having to mule these sets to every new AT just so it can perform more efficiently suggests to me something is not balanced. Anyone asking for advice about endurance are usually advised to slot these IO's.

 

With the recent changes to attack types more attacks that can drain endurance may get through without these toggles? so not using certain toggles to conserve endurance may not be the best option.

 

Slotting endurance reductions is not always enough.

 

For funs sake could you increase Stamina or decrease toggles for leveling a little please? 

 

A suggestion could be that as you level then so could the endurance cost(toggles only). They would be low endurance to begin with and slowly increase as you level and gain access to better enhancements.

 

A small buff would be nice.

Edited November 27, 2022 by Gobbledegook

[Rudra]

8 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

A suggestion could be that as you level then so could the endurance cost. They would be low endurance to begin with and slowly increase as you level and gain access to better enhancements.

I really don't see this part happening. There will be an outcry from players that their powers are intentionally getting worse as they level on top of the enemies getting more powerful requiring enhancements in the first place. Thus requiring them to change how they slot their powers even though it will simply be a restoration of original slotting.

 

As for the rest? *shrug* I don't have an opinion either way right now.

[Gobbledigook]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

I really don't see this part happening. There will be an outcry from players that their powers are intentionally getting worse as they level on top of the enemies getting more powerful requiring enhancements in the first place. Thus requiring them to change how they slot their powers even though it will simply be a restoration of original slotting.

 

As for the rest? *shrug* I don't have an opinion either way right now.

Yes i see your point but it was only meant for the toggle powers only. So maybe not such a big deal but yes it could be an issue like you say.

[MistressOhm]

The Stamina bar exists to represent your character getting 'tired' or out of juice after using their powers, either extensively, or powerfully.  having the Devs tweak End usage so that no one never actually 'runs out' would defeat the purpose of having it.  

Edited November 27, 2022 by MistressOhm

[Gobbledigook]

Not every AT is equal though. Blasters for example get added recovery and use little toggles. A Tanker trying to tank for the group whilst running toggles and trying to attack rather than just taunt spamming can run out very quickly without IO bonuses. Scrappers are expected to attack and run toggles. Support AT's can help but are not always around.

 

I didn't suggest that that it should never run out but that it may need a slight buff due to reasons above with recent changes.

Edited November 27, 2022 by Gobbledegook

[MistressOhm]

That's part of why people tune their builds.

 

You can be OP, or have great staying power, but not both.

 

End issues you are expected to manage, yourself, regardless of archetype.  If you don't need an anti-KB or anti-mez toggle, don't run it.  If you don't need a DoT aura between mobs, turn it off.   If you can take something down with a T2 blast attack, don't use the T9.   

[Gobbledigook]

So new players are expected to know what toggles to run? It isn't a problem for me i will just mule set IO's over but should we have to, to have a more enjoyable leveling process?

 

Turning off anti mez protection is not good advice. Blasters at the back etc may get away with it but they get bonus recovery anyway.

 

Constant toggle managing does not sound fun to me and could be a little easier with a small buff. It sounds slow and tedious in a fast paced game.

 

So basically to all new players the advice is don't use those cool new powers you just gained or learn when to use them? or to stand doing nothing being OP or stop using your power choices to have great staying power?

 

A small buff to stamina or a small toggle reduction may be a nicer option.

Edited November 27, 2022 by Gobbledegook

[Ghost]

“For the new players!”

 

Wouldnt it be better in the long run if they learned to play - which includes end management?

Just activating all the toggles, or just mashing attacks, with no consequences just takes one more challenge away from the game.  

[WumpusRat]

While I've definitely run a lot of builds that have serious endurance issues while leveling, honestly I think part of the fun for me is reaching a point where I can do all the stuff I was doing before, and not run out of end. It's a big sense of accomplishment for a character when I've gotten my end management "just so" and can still fight my way through stuff effectively and conserve my endurance at the same time.

 

There are always solutions to end costs: slot more end reduction, both in your toggles as well as your attacks. Does it mean sacrificing a bit of damage or defense in order to do it? Yep. But learning that balance point is important.

[biostem]

There are several ways to manage your end use:

 

1. Slot end reduction enhancements.

2. Only run the toggles that you absolutely need.

3. Pace your attacks and try to minimize "spill-over" damage.

4. Make sure you are well slotted for accuracy/tohit, so you aren't whiffing.

5. Pack several blue inspirations.

6. Know when to break off your attack and/or break line of sight so you have a few moments to regain some endurance and/or can fight the enemies on better terms.

7. Utilize the special invention-origin enhancements, like panacea, performance shifter, miracle, and Numina's convalescence.

8. If you are taking the leadership pool, see if you can fit Victory Rush into your build.

9. If you have a travel power that grants vertical movement, consider making your way to a high enough ledge where you can rest in safety.

10. If all else fails, create a different character that has access to an end recovery or better end management powers in their primary or secondary...

[Clave Dark 5]

3 hours ago, Gobbledegook said:

So new players are expected to know what toggles to run? It isn't a problem for me i will just mule set IO's over but should we have to, to have a more enjoyable leveling process?

Even thjough this game is now free, MMOs are designed with something of a steep learning curve to encourage players to stick around while they learn and master its intricacies.  For example, this is also why we have many, many forms of currencies in the game and (for the most part) a damage IO set isn't just "damage" but "ranged damage", "AoE damage," Melee AoE damage," etc.  Complexity! (imagine Spongebob making that rainbow hand gesture)  Any poking about on the forums or asking in the General channel inside the game should be able to give a new player a rough idea on where to start (and hey, often players will buy and give you the IO or two to slot too if you seem confused).

 

Leveling End can be a problem, and I've had to learn to pick and choose a bit, like "don't run Tough and Weave yet, even if I have them."  But I've also had toons that due to their build or slotting, pretty much NEVER presented me with an End problem.  It can be done, and probably with whatever you're running right now!  Don't give up!  Stick with it and you'll do just fine I'm sure.  We've lived with End like this for ages now, it'll work out. 

[Six-Six]

Tell your toons to get more exercise and cut down on the snack between meals.

[kelika2]

i dont wanna bust your balls or anything but end reduction in attacks > end reduction in toggles.

experiencing this again with an IOed health/stamina at level 27, but no IO sets in attacks

 

20% endred in toggles

20% endmod in autos

60% endred in attacks

 

maybe

[biostem]

5 hours ago, Gobbledegook said:

So new players are expected to know what toggles to run?

If you just want to rush through character creation, without seeing what your powers do or look at the combat log at all, then you are going to find yourself scratching your head about why you keep running out of breath.  CoH is from a time when there was less hand-holding and even less direct instruction on how you should play or what you should do with your powers.  You need to feel comfortable with exploring the various game menus and familiarize yourself with the various game stats and terms.  Don't post here about not liking that you run out of endurance, then complain that yes, you ARE supposed to learn how the game works...

[nihilii]

7 hours ago, Gobbledegook said:

Slotting endurance reductions is not always enough.

I believe the opposite, and have never managed to disprove it.

Usually, 2 END SOs in each attack (including damage auras, obviously) will solve end woes.

 

I think the biggest footgun people fall prey to is slotting 3 DAM SOs before any END (if at all). 1 DAM + 1 END does better DPE than 2 DAM.

Many combos have external damage buffs, further stacking the balance towards slotting END. If you're a Brute, for example - slotting END first is a no brainer. Your Fury bar will carry you much further than DAM SOs until the endgame. I've had Brute attacks where I run 2 ACC 2 END 2 RECH.

The tricky part with endurance, actually... might be that endurance management is *too* easy in this game.

So you never have incentive to think about it. And if you don't have to think about it, then it is indeed optimal to maximise damage first.

 

It's completely understandable to lack the initiative to use the available options, because it's a counterintuitive path to the norm. But endurance reduction truly is more efficient than it gets credit for.

[SeraphimKensai]

While I'll agree in part that there are some end costs that could be reduced to be standardized to be in line with similar powers (hello Hot Feet at 1.08 endurance/second), I really don't think we need an across the board stamina improvement.

 

Hell the live devs eventually gave us the whole fitness pool as an inherent, a lot of us still remember the years of having to waste power picks to get stamina.

 

That said how do you slot it? How do you slot your attacks? You can get recovery serums, cabs, base empowerment buffs, or throw an End Rdx SO into an attack until you can afford to IO slot. Otherwise you can address end issues late game also with incarnates.

 

As a last means of refilling your endurance, there's a power every toon gets for free called Rest. It wasn't designed for Roleplaying. People actually used it and sometimes would even do so in mid battle while they have their teammates protect them while doing so.

 

Just my two cents.

[Gobbledigook]

I hear what you guys are saying but i recently created a new toon with 2 PBAoE aura's. I had not got around to passing over any Io's but i slotted everything with double end reductions and just thought i would give it a try. I ran out of endurance so fast it was a joke. I would need to rest constantly and could not even finish some fights because endurance dropped. I fully slotted stamina etc.

 

So i thought a 10% or so increase to stamina would not go amiss or a slight reduction in certain toggles. No biggie.

 

But i guess i will just carry on muling my IO sets over lol.

 

I have played this game since start and know how to slot and manage end use. Some sets combo's are OTT on end usage but they should still be able to play them.

 

@biostem i meant against each type of mob. It's ok to say switch some toggles of but if you do not know what damage types you are facing it could go badly for a new player.  Some toggles bring mez protection also and need to be on really.

 

Playing AT's with little to no toggles and +recovery is not the same as playing a Brute for example trying to also do damage and run some toggles with no extra +recovery to try to stay alive in melee range.

 

I am just trying to think of a new player that often appears on the forums with Endurance woes and guided to the IO system. Plus the new changes may warrant a small increase.

 

At 50 all endurance problems are solved quite easily, so learning end management whilst leveling may be a little helpful but mostly a hindrance.

 

Just my opinion playing this game over 15 years.

Edited November 27, 2022 by Gobbledegook

[Glacier Peak]

There are plenty of ways to learn from challenges in this game. I have faith in new players and in the players who have been around for those many years, that they can find ways to resolve their endurance issues. I don't see this as anything more than an outlier issue on a few powers that aren't following the standard formula, so this suggestion does not receive my approval. 

[JasperStone]

Toggle management is part of the game, been so since Live.

Great recommendations so far.

If I am struggling with endo, I will seek out those sets that give a reduction to endurance cost in the set bonuses

[Gobbledigook]

The obvious way to manage endurance issue are set bonuses. The game is not balanced off IO sets apparently...it obviously is quite a bit.

 

Some powers may need an adjustment to endurance cost but that is up to the developers. There are a small few against a small buff but i have heard many complaining over the years and they have been advised to use set bonuses. They are easy enough to acquire i guess.

 

With the recent changes i though it may be worthwhile. Ill leave the thread, i had my 2c. Peace guys!

Edited November 27, 2022 by Gobbledegook

[Ghost]

Out of curiosity, you’re not running with Hasten are you?

 

Me personally, that’s one of the last powers I take just because it helps eat up endurance.

As for end red. I drop one in every attack (1st slot) with two in the higher end costing ones - and I use SOs until 50

Edited November 27, 2022 by Ghost

[Gobbledigook]

1 hour ago, Ghost said:

Out of curiosity, you’re not running with Hasten are you?

 

Me personally, that’s one of the last powers I take just because it helps eat up endurance.

As for end red. I drop one in every attack (1st slot) with two in the higher end costing ones - and I use SOs until 50

No i had not picked that up yet as it is nice to have but no rush and as you say just eats endurance more which at low levels is already awkward  with some powers.

 

Yes end reductions were the first thing i slotted into every power that costs endurance.

 

No matter how many i slot 2 small mobs will need me to rest. Not my playstyle really and maybe that is the problem.

 

Years and years of seeing posts struggling with endurance and the recent changes made me think that maybe it is time for a small buff in that department. I will awkwardly mule sets over as usual. It was just a small suggestion/idea.

Edited November 27, 2022 by Gobbledegook

[Rudra]

A few things I've been thinking about reading through this thread:

 

Low level enhancements suffer from giving lower benefits than higher level enhancements. That goes for TOs, DOs, SOs, and set enhancements. As the character levels, those slotted endurance reductions become progressively more useful, provided you slot the higher level enhancements as you go. So END is going to be more difficult to manage at lower levels if you pack on more auras/toggles to go with your attacks instead of waiting until higher levels. As someone else said though, it is the attacks that eat up more END than the toggles, unless you overload your character with toggles at lower levels. So yeah, higher level characters have an easier time managing their END than lower level characters, but they also have more powers to have to manage.

 

The suggestion to fix this by increasing END only slows the problem, it doesn't fix it. And all characters already benefit from inherent Stamina unlike earlier in the game's life. So everyone is already getting a boosted means of dealing with END costs on their characters.

 

Reducing the END cost of toggles would directly address the mentioned problem, but then END stops being a concern at higher levels.

 

I'm still undecided about how I feel about the OP, but the comments made in this thread are definitely leading me to oppose the OP.

[Gobbledigook]

29 minutes ago, Rudra said:

A few things I've been thinking about reading through this thread:

 

Low level enhancements suffer from giving lower benefits than higher level enhancements. That goes for TOs, DOs, SOs, and set enhancements. As the character levels, those slotted endurance reductions become progressively more useful, provided you slot the higher level enhancements as you go. So END is going to be more difficult to manage at lower levels if you pack on more auras/toggles to go with your attacks instead of waiting until higher levels. As someone else said though, it is the attacks that eat up more END than the toggles, unless you overload your character with toggles at lower levels. So yeah, higher level characters have an easier time managing their END than lower level characters, but they also have more powers to have to manage.

 

The suggestion to fix this by increasing END only slows the problem, it doesn't fix it. And all characters already benefit from inherent Stamina unlike earlier in the game's life. So everyone is already getting a boosted means of dealing with END costs on their characters.

 

Reducing the END cost of toggles would directly address the mentioned problem, but then END stops being a concern at higher levels.

 

I'm still undecided about how I feel about the OP, but the comments made in this thread are definitely leading me to oppose the OP.

Yes that is what i was trying to say. That the powers come earlier now but enhancements don't. Plus the changes to attack types may open characters up to more endurance debuff effects if toggles aren't run.

 

It was only an idea that i was trying to get across, you do not need to oppose me. You either agree with all ,some or none of my idea. I don't mind it is just a discussion. I had good intentions.

[Grouchybeast]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Low level enhancements suffer from giving lower benefits than higher level enhancements. That goes for TOs, DOs, SOs, and set enhancements. As the character levels, those slotted endurance reductions become progressively more useful, provided you slot the higher level enhancements as you go.

 

TO/DO/SO bonuses are affected only by the difference between their own level and the character level, unless a character is exemping. An even-level SO always gives a bonus of 33.33%.  Since SOs are now available at any level, low level characters have had a huge boost in their powers, assuming they can be bothered to keep up with refreshing their SO.  A +3 SO gives approximately the same bonus as a level 40 Common IO.