Were Brutes that Badly Nerfed?

[Indystruck]

On 1/12/2023 at 10:09 PM, Luminara said:

 

 

the trade off: you're using staff

[Wavicle]

Tanks are going to get their aoe damage nerfed, almost certainly. Brutes ARE tougher than Scrappers, no matter how much you poo poo the difference.

That will put Brutes where they belong, tougher than Scrappers, not as tough as Tanks, more damaging than Tanks, not as damaging as Scrappers.

The problem is not Brutes, the problem is Tankers.

[Maelwys]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

That will put Brutes where they belong, tougher than Scrappers, not as tough as Tanks, more damaging than Tanks, not as damaging as Scrappers.

The problem is not Brutes, the problem is Tankers.

Yes, Brutes are already "Tougher than Scrappers".
And Brutes are also already "not as tough as Tankers" and (attack for attack, on Single-Targets) "more damaging than Tankers, not as damaging as Scrappers".

The "problem" is indeed to do with Tankers. But it's not their raw damage. It's the radius buff - Tankers do wider AoE and hit more things with most Cones and AoEs (outside of Pool attacks like Cross Punch and outliers like Footstomp); which drastically inflates their damage vs multiple targets. Certain powersets (Staff, BA, TW, etc) benefit more than others (SS) here; but by and large Tankers will deal substantially better damage vs multiple Foes than a Brute. And on teams you get more mobs around you, which results in Tankers performing better.

So actually you do NOT need to buff Brute damage or reduce Tank damage unless you're only worried about their performance when soloing at +X/8 (and I think we can all agree that "Farming" is not a great metric for balance anyway)... instead, you just need to make it more attractive for a Brute to be on a team.
Hence my suggestion of using the Brute ATOs to give some additional mechanical benefit to having them on a team.

Also, for chasing ST damage output on teams it's often not the Scrappers I'd worry about, but the Stalkers... the crit rate of those guys on big teams can gets quite silly, and is why there's a valid argument for Scrappers needing their ATOs to remain competitive. Brutes aren't even on the radar. 
 

Edited March 31 by Maelwys

[Shin Magmus]

Okay, time to provide correct and honest feedback: Brutes are completely outclassed in the current version of the game and only exist as leftovers from CoV as a standalone game, post-Tanker-Buffs on HC.  If the few sets available on Brutes but not Tankers, were proliferated to Tankers: there would be 0 reason to play Brutes.  It's not my fault that the game is currently in this state.  However, there are at least some low-hanging-fruit easy partial fixes to the problem.

 

Fix 1: Buff Brute self (melee) Defense, Healing, and Resist scalars up from Scrapper values to a midpoint between Scrapper and Tanker values.  There is no logical reason that Brutes are inherently as squishy as they are, and arbitrary new bizarre scalar values are an already-opened Pandora's Box if you look at the stupid bullshit going on with Sentinel numbers.  Sentinels set the precedent; Brutes should benefit from it.  Starting out as tankier than Scrappers and being closer to Tankers will open up a lot more build flexibility in Brutes, and is genuinely long overdue.

 

Fix 2: Re-Tune all damage buff powers on Brutes.  This is shamefully overdue and is a natural side-effect of how Fury and dmg scales work, but the proportional benefit from powers like Follow Up, Rage, Power Siphon, and ofc every Build Up, but even stuff like Against All Odds, should be tuned upward to account for the base level of dmg buff from Rage.  Brutes will still have a weakness where they benefit less from outside dmg buffs (including Inspirations) going on in the team, but there is no logical or fair reason for a Brute clicking Build Up to get so much less proportional value out of the power than the 3 other Melee ATs.

 

Both of these fixes are just numbers tweaks.  Also both of these fixes are MINOR!  Neither of these numbers tweaks I am suggesting will make any difference on an Advanced Mode Comp when your defenses are capped by Barrier Spam and your offenses are capped by a Kinetics user.  Brutes will still be in a bad spot balance-wise, and in many situations will have all of the same problems.  But these buffs are simple numbers tweaks that could be implemented tomorrow: and they would at least make Brute as an AT feel less completely outclassed and useless in 90% of situations (but not fix it at all in the other 10%).

[Luminara]

6 hours ago, Indystruck said:

 

the trade off: you're using staff

[Lunar Ronin]

2 hours ago, ShinMagmus said:

Okay, time to provide correct and honest feedback: Brutes are completely outclassed in the current version of the game and only exist as leftovers from CoV as a standalone game, post-Tanker-Buffs on HC.  If the few sets available on Brutes but not Tankers, were proliferated to Tankers: there would be 0 reason to play Brutes.  It's not my fault that the game is currently in this state.  However, there are at least some low-hanging-fruit easy partial fixes to the problem.

 

Fix 1: Buff Brute self (melee) Defense, Healing, and Resist scalars up from Scrapper values to a midpoint between Scrapper and Tanker values.  There is no logical reason that Brutes are inherently as squishy as they are, and arbitrary new bizarre scalar values are an already-opened Pandora's Box if you look at the stupid bullshit going on with Sentinel numbers.  Sentinels set the precedent; Brutes should benefit from it.  Starting out as tankier than Scrappers and being closer to Tankers will open up a lot more build flexibility in Brutes, and is genuinely long overdue.

 

Fix 2: Re-Tune all damage buff powers on Brutes.  This is shamefully overdue and is a natural side-effect of how Fury and dmg scales work, but the proportional benefit from powers like Follow Up, Rage, Power Siphon, and ofc every Build Up, but even stuff like Against All Odds, should be tuned upward to account for the base level of dmg buff from Rage.  Brutes will still have a weakness where they benefit less from outside dmg buffs (including Inspirations) going on in the team, but there is no logical or fair reason for a Brute clicking Build Up to get so much less proportional value out of the power than the 3 other Melee ATs.

 

Both of these fixes are just numbers tweaks.  Also both of these fixes are MINOR!  Neither of these numbers tweaks I am suggesting will make any difference on an Advanced Mode Comp when your defenses are capped by Barrier Spam and your offenses are capped by a Kinetics user.  Brutes will still be in a bad spot balance-wise, and in many situations will have all of the same problems.  But these buffs are simple numbers tweaks that could be implemented tomorrow: and they would at least make Brute as an AT feel less completely outclassed and useless in 90% of situations (but not fix it at all in the other 10%).

 

Or just nerf Tankers and nerf procs.

[Haijinx]

Just now, Lunar Ronin said:

 

Or just nerf Tankers and nerf procs.

Nerfing procs would do it. 

 

Since that would stop tankers from AOE proc bombing mini nukes due to their radius.

 

And nerf Scrapper Crits 

 

And nerf Stalker build ups / hides 

 

Blasters and Sents would move further ahead of Defender/Corruptor on the Blast front ... 

 

Etc.  

 

 

[Lunar Ronin]

2 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Nerfing procs would do it. 

 

Since that would stop tankers from AOE proc bombing mini nukes due to their radius.

 

And nerf Scrapper Crits 

 

And nerf Stalker build ups / hides 

 

Blasters and Sents would move further ahead of Defender/Corruptor on the Blast front ... 

 

Etc.  

 

 

 

Yeah.  The real problem isn't Brutes.  Brutes are, IMO, just fine as is.  The real issue is Tankers are grossly overpowered now and do far too much damage between their AT damage modifier being increased too high, and their interaction with procs due to their increased AoE radius.

[ScarySai]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

Nerfing procs would do it. 

 

You make brutes worse and manage to nuke all underperforming sets in the process of doing this, while things like fire blasters, tanks and axe/energy scrappers remain relatively untouched.

 

Also, the difference of damage output between a dam capped tank and a dam capped brute is less than 13%, and that's before we factor in the higher target cap.

 

Tldr: issue's more complicated than just nerfing tanks and procs and certain people shouldn't talk about what they don't understand.

Edited March 31 by ScarySai

[Indystruck]

3 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

This is how enemies react when you hit them with a power in Staff Melee, yes

[Luminara]

13 minutes ago, Indystruck said:

This is how enemies react when you hit them with a power in Staff Melee, yes

 

[Maelwys]

6 hours ago, Indystruck said:

 

This is how enemies react when you hit them with a power in Staff Melee, yes

Ehh, more like


(<3 my Bio/Staff Tanker...)

[skoryy]

Condider that the tanker advantage at the high end game could be their reward for being less fun leveling and exemping than the brute.

 

An SG mate's Dark/Dark tank had me considering one of my own until I realized what few attacks he'd have for the first half of his leveling journey.  So I made him a Dark/Dark brute instead.  Much more fun.

[Lunar Ronin]

6 minutes ago, skoryy said:

Condider that the tanker advantage at the high end game could be their reward for being less fun leveling and exemping than the brute.

 

An SG mate's Dark/Dark tank had me considering one of my own until I realized what few attacks he'd have for the first half of his leveling journey.  So I made him a Dark/Dark brute instead.  Much more fun.

 

Considering that both Tankers get their attacks much earlier as of Page 5, and that you can get to level 50 in a few hours... Nah.

[skoryy]

2 minutes ago, Lunar Ronin said:

 

Considering that both Tankers get their attacks much earlier as of Page 5, and that you can get to level 50 in a few hours... Nah.

You still get your attacks later than a brute, will get them fully slotted later than a brute, and not everyone farms their way to 50.

[Maelwys]

6 minutes ago, skoryy said:

Condider that the tanker advantage at the high end game could be their reward for being less fun leveling and exemping than the brute.

 

An SG mate's Dark/Dark tank had me considering one of my own until I realized what few attacks he'd have for the first half of his leveling journey.  So I made him a Dark/Dark brute instead.  Much more fun.

Might have been true back on live, but i27 Page 5's T8/T9 power level requirement reshuffle smoothed the attack level progression out a LOT.
Between getting to choose your first secondary-powerset ability at level 1 and gaining access to all the rest by level 30; I don't think Tankers are particularly attack-starved these days. 

[Erratic1]

43 minutes ago, skoryy said:

Condider that the tanker advantage at the high end game could be their reward for being less fun leveling and exemping than the brute.

 

Then Defenders should be seriously boosted.

 

I have played and exemplared plenty of Tankers. They were plenty fun.

 

43 minutes ago, skoryy said:

 

An SG mate's Dark/Dark tank had me considering one of my own until I realized what few attacks he'd have for the first half of his leveling journey.  So I made him a Dark/Dark brute instead.  Much more fun.

 

I do believe the latest big patch has suitable altered the pace of power acquisition for everyone. 

[Haijinx]

10 hours ago, ScarySai said:

 

You make brutes worse and manage to nuke all underperforming sets in the process of doing this, while things like fire blasters, tanks and axe/energy scrappers remain relatively untouched.

 

Also, the difference of damage output between a dam capped tank and a dam capped brute is less than 13%, and that's before we factor in the higher target cap.

 

Tldr: issue's more complicated than just nerfing tanks and procs and certain people shouldn't talk about what they don't understand.

 

I was just saying that the biggest AT balance bang for your buck would be to nerf procs. It would move the AT balance towards the SO only separations (depending on how much procs were nerfed)

 

It would not take a nerf of procs And a Tank nerf.

 

I was replying to someone else, as a solution to the problem they see.  You'll notice I did not actually advocate any specific changes prior to that.  It was an exercise in how the game mechanics would work.

 

If you would rather they use procs as a bandaid to balance the game, cool. I don't really think either will ever be nerfed, so we aren't really doing anything more than theory crafting here anyway.

[ScarySai]

That's fine, but regardless of if you personally advocate it or not, it is a good post to reply to when it comes to addressing those that really think it'll fix the game overnight.

[Haijinx]

11 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

That's fine, but regardless of if you personally advocate it or not, it is a good post to reply to when it comes to addressing those that really think it'll fix the game overnight.

 

This game is 20 ears old and has NEVER been well designed froma RPG game standpoint. 

 

That's a lot of overnights. 

[wjrasmussen]

21 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Tanks are going to get their aoe damage nerfed, almost certainly. Brutes ARE tougher than Scrappers, no matter how much you poo poo the difference.

That will put Brutes where they belong, tougher than Scrappers, not as tough as Tanks, more damaging than Tanks, not as damaging as Scrappers.

The problem is not Brutes, the problem is Tankers.

I am sorry, but Neo told me the problem was choice.

[Lyrium]

On 3/30/2024 at 7:37 AM, Snarky said:

I agree with myself

Happens to me 100% of the time, too!

[nihilii]

On 3/31/2024 at 8:38 AM, Wavicle said:

The problem is not Brutes, the problem is Tankers.

This was the first reply in this thread more than 1 year ago, near universally agreed, and now somehow this is controversial.

I think we're running in circles because some posters are in the "buff Brutes" camp to protect their overpowered Tanker or to hope for an overpowered Brute, and some posters are in the "nerf Tankers" camp because they're trolls who like to see others miserable. In truth there's solid arguments for both buffing Brutes a little bit and nerfing Tankers a little bit, my own preference would go to taking a look at damage scaling like ShinMagmus said and uhhhh even though it is my favorite buff ever, it's very hard to defend the Tanker p5 radius buff as balanced.

Edited April 1 by nihilii

[Shin Magmus]

8 minutes ago, nihilii said:

This was the first reply in this thread more than 1 year ago, near universally agreed, and now somehow this is controversial.

I think we're running in circles because some posters are in the "buff Brutes" camp to protect their overpowered Tanker or to hope for an overpowered Brute, and some posters are in the "nerf Tankers" camp because they're trolls who like to see others miserable. In truth there's solid arguments for both buffing Brutes a little bit and nerfing Tankers a little bit, my own preference would go to taking a look at damage scaling like ShinMagmus said and uhhhh even though it is my favorite buff ever, it's very hard to defend the Tanker p5 radius buff as balanced.

So do both.  Buff Brutes a little bit AND Nerf Tankers a little bit.  But not buffing Brutes at all still results in them, at baseline performance, on SO's and walking around alone, getting 50% or less proportionate benefit out of a power like Build Up or Follow Up than the other 3 Melee ATs (not just Tankers, all of them), and that is long-overdue shenanigarglefuckery that really should've been changed and buffed like 10 years ago.

[tidge]

Some small, but not insignificant, part of my mental model for the argument in favor of "Tankers must be nerfed" is that there is a large overlap between people who make that argument and those who used to be the loudest proponents of "Brutes make Tankers irrelevant" not all that long ago. In the years before CoV, the argument was "Scrappers make Tankers irrelevant"... at least after the critter AI change that kept them from being willingly immolated by Fire Tankers.  CoX isn't a zero-sum game! Embrace the difference in play-styles and build choices (across all levels of content) and try to avoid thinking that a particular AT is somehow gimped because you witnessed a player using another AT do something "better".

 

The Brutes v. Tanks argument is a corner case that relies primarily (my PoV) on very specific build/slotting choices... so it isn't appropriate to plead for "Tanker Nerfs" just because a particular set of choices relating to attacks and slotting can have a Tanker cleaning up minion-level enemies slightly faster than a Brute that makes alternate build choices.