CoX Homecoming Proof of Concept: Increased scale cap for player characters

[kelticfury]

No way. Max sized toons already get in the way all the time. Making them bigger is a horrible idea.

[Oneirohero]

I just don't see the point. We can already be really big and really small. Why do we need to be able to be bigger or smaller? It would never be enough to satisfy everyone, someone would always want to go beyond whatever bounds are set.

It's true there may be others out there who would want to be even bigger than what I've covered in the proposal, however unlike them, I've found the largest possible size difference before it becomes universally unfeasible for most of the game and one that works relative to existing mobs the player character fights against on a frequent basis. Those who are still unsatisfied with the new cap increase can remain unsatisfied, the scale limits would not be raised any higher than this.

 

As for answering the rhetorical: Why do we need to be able to make bigger or smaller characters? Because people want this, people that aren't necessarily me. If you read the OP, you know that I was inspired to create the proposal after hearing a couple of others suggesting this very idea during the last Everlasting RP Event, and a few more who agreed it would be a nice option. Granted, I want this too, so I made the extra effort to present and argue the case as professionally as possible. You may not see the point because you don't have or want to make characters of such sizes, and that's your choice, as long as those who want this feature have the choice to do so as well.

 

Others in the thread have expressed their detractions, some justified. However without the means to play these changes in a real game setting (with working doors, powers, mobs to fight...etc) it would be hard to test anything more than what I have presented thus far. Honestly, if a Homecoming dev hasn't seen this thread yet, I'll personally seek one out on the discord and ask someone to run their own tests, or better yet, arrange to have the Justin server be used to test the changes as it could be done so publicly and without impacting the live game. People in the past have doubted the viability of these kinds of suggestions before when it's explained to them in text, and I managed to prove the opposite with still images. The only true test to see whether this change really bothers some people, or if they simply envision the worst possible outcome and use it to base their opinion, is if they got to see it in action for themselves.

 

Maybe I'll try finding the software for making CoX virtual servers and see for myself what to do with changing server settings to produce the desired effect, never a bad idea to check my facts and could speed the process along. Anybody got links to the one Homecoming uses?

 

[_NOPE_]

+1. I also want the ability to make my Hank Pym homage. I'd love to have my character smaller than a Wisp.

[Arcstone]

TBH I rather see an option to make a fat character, seems silly that every single villain/hero is ripped

 

[justicebeliever]

I seriously can’t believe I’ve missed this thread.  This is the one “power” i’ve always thought the game most lacked: extreme sizes or size changing.

 

I’m definitely a +1 on this

 

OP, great work on the proof of concept...this thread is a great example of making the case for change.

+1 inf

[OmegaX123]

TBH I rather see an option to make a fat character, seems silly that every single villain/hero is ripped

Most people in my experience would /jranger this, either because "zomg u can't be a hero and be fat" (Blob - granted not a hero but still a fat super whose fat isn't a result of his power, he just uses the two in conjunction - and Big Bertha would have words with those people, among others), or because they assume it's a fetish thing and either aren't into it or they are but want to look 'normal'. I'm going to do the opposite, because as my above examples (and the ones I mentioned in the now-locked smaller-breasts thread, and even Squirrel Girl to an extent) prove, fat supers, both Male and female, do exist.

[Some Random User]

Didn't the devs have something like, "if you're so small you have an advantage in P.v.P.," or something?

[Some Random User]

I seriously can’t believe I’ve missed this thread.  This is the one “power” i’ve always thought the game most lacked: extreme sizes or size changing.

 

I seem to remember this being asked years ago. Didn't the devs say something about the graphics engine not being able to accommodate making a player's character model change height?

[justicebeliever]

I seriously can’t believe I’ve missed this thread.  This is the one “power” i’ve always thought the game most lacked: extreme sizes or size changing.

 

I seem to remember this being asked years ago. Didn't the devs say something about the graphics engine not being able to accommodate making a player's character model change height?

 

I homestly don’t remember, but between this proof of concept and multiple builds/costume slots, I could make a believable size changing hero (well, believable for me) without actually having “size changing” as a power(set)

[splendidspud]

Absolutely love this idea with absolutely excellent research done by OP for the proof of concept, +1 from me!

[Legree]

It's not a feature I would use myself, but I'm quite won over by your proof of concept piece - great read!

[rebel_1812]

Sounds like a good idea to me.  All it does is give more options to players which is never a bad thing (if you believe in freedom).

[Varkarrus]

I'd made a powerset that explores this concept! It would address the fact that all collision boxes are the same size, by giving heroes who use this an increased collision radius as well as an increased model size cap. I'd wanted to see characters be as large as 16 feet tall, but the gallery you made shows that that isn't quite viable.

 

Also

 

On 6/15/2019 at 3:11 PM, OmegaX123 said:

Most people in my experience would /jranger this, either because "zomg u can't be a hero and be fat" (Blob - granted not a hero but still a fat super whose fat isn't a result of his power, he just uses the two in conjunction - and Big Bertha would have words with those people, among others), or because they assume it's a fetish thing and either aren't into it or they are but want to look 'normal'. I'm going to do the opposite, because as my above examples (and the ones I mentioned in the now-locked smaller-breasts thread, and even Squirrel Girl to an extent) prove, fat supers, both Male and female, do exist.

 

Not only will I +1 this, I will also add: I think they should modify the "Huge" bodytype to include feminine costume parts, add a breast slider, and a toggle to use the female voice. Basically make it so you can use the Huge bodytype for female characters as well.

Edited August 17, 2019 by Varkarrus

[ZeeHero]

I want to be action figure sized literally plz.

[Blood Speaker]

On 6/11/2019 at 11:37 AM, Black Zot said:

 

Caves are badly designed in general and could use a complete overhaul.

Which, unfortunately, would almost certainly break virtually any missions associated with them. Many, MANY missions, including quite possibly every major story arc and task force. I hate the chintzy "comic book caves" in CoH myself, but I just don't ever see this happening.

[Ago]

Another consideration: This is demonstrable in Paragon Chat where you can get past the Costume Validation at your own risk (Basically, only you can see the changes, everyone else sees no costume on you and you're just chatting in the channels, making you effectively invisible until you change costumes).

 

Movement was covered in your proposal, but it's missing another factor: animation speed.  You can see it in smaller toons, use a dance emote.  Now do the same emote on a larger toon.  Smaller toons animate faster, larger toons move slower to the same animation.  If you make a small toon do the Pogo, when the dance speeds up, they bounce faster than a kindergartener on an energy drink at a point.  The same dance on a humongous toon, and it's more measured.

 

While increasing the size to your proposal isn't going to dramatically affect movement speed in the same manner as I saw it when I made an 80-ft. Tahquitz in Paragon Chat, however, the running animation will be affected for various powers making a slight 'sliding effect' more apparent with larger sizes.  The toon is running, the avatar advances forward, but the steps are less in time with the position of the character so they look more like they're running with socks on a linoleum floor.  Apply travel powers, and speed boosts and it becomes more visible.  Same as the Magisterium Task Force, 80 ft. tall Tyrant never runs at full speed across the battle stage.  That's probably why.

 

Just another factor to keep in mind.  (And "That's Paragon Chat, and this isn't, so there" is probably running through some people's minds as a reply.  Possible, but it is the same engine in the end.  The differences from Issue 24 to Issue 26 in the avatar/costume system isn't night and day exactly.)

Edited August 18, 2019 by Tahquitz

[Zolgar]

I have a couple characters that use the current 'hack' to get slightly outside of what the creator allows, and would definitely be in support of an expanded range, especially taller female skeletons and shorter male skeletons.

 

As it stands presently, a female Avatar cannot go past the creators height at all, and a male one can get like an inch shorter.

[DR_Mechano]

One thing I would like is the option to make regular male and female body shapes as tall as the huge body shape can get, since that's already in the game, the height thing wouldn't be too much of an issue.

[DrIlluminatis]

Won't an exceptionally large Character be unable to do Door missions?

[Oneirohero]

On 8/18/2019 at 6:45 AM, Tahquitz said:

Movement was covered in your proposal, but it's missing another factor: animation speed.  You can see it in smaller toons, use a dance emote.  Now do the same emote on a larger toon.  Smaller toons animate faster, larger toons move slower to the same animation.  If you make a small toon do the Pogo, when the dance speeds up, they bounce faster than a kindergartener on an energy drink at a point.  The same dance on a humongous toon, and it's more measured.

 

While increasing the size to your proposal isn't going to dramatically affect movement speed in the same manner as I saw it when I made an 80-ft. Tahquitz in Paragon Chat, however, the running animation will be affected for various powers making a slight 'sliding effect' more apparent with larger sizes.  The toon is running, the avatar advances forward, but the steps are less in time with the position of the character so they look more like they're running with socks on a linoleum floor.  Apply travel powers, and speed boosts and it becomes more visible.  Same as the Magisterium Task Force, 80 ft. tall Tyrant never runs at full speed across the battle stage.  That's probably why.

Animation speed definitely does affect things, one extra example is that Ninja run also behaves differently in the way you run and even spin when releasing the jump key for its unique animation. Larger characters will have more sweeping, deliberate movements while smaller ones remind me of a certain blue hedgehog, right down to the jumping spin. Even larger characters would end up having even slower and more sweeping movements in the legs while running and a slower spin in the air while tinier ones might as well have speedlines for special effect.

 

Your point about the 80ft Tahquitz has merit although the fact he WAS 80ft tall instead of 12ft is why it is only a concern not an issue. The slowing effect of animations at that size is still not severe enough to break the suggestion. It's probably more of an issue for adding smaller sizes to the mix, the 4ft versions are already pretty nightcore already without dropping it to 3ft or 2ft. But players are creative, they could explain how and why their character is super speedy while tiny easily enough. Also props for making an 80ft tall toon, you should be the next Atlas/Talos!

 

2 hours ago, DrIlluminatis said:

Won't an exceptionally large Character be unable to do Door missions?

It was explained in the proposal and some posts that doors and other transition clickies are not affected. The worst would be your head clipping through the top of the doorway for a frame or two which you wouldn't necessarily notice. There is virtually no collision with the upper half of their body and can even slip through normal sized doors in the way that some existing max-size huge characters can pass through the frame.

[Hyperstrike]

Can't vote as none of them resemble my choices.

 

On 6/14/2019 at 6:14 PM, Vanden said:

I just don't see the point. We can already be really big and really small. Why do we need to be able to be bigger or smaller? It would never be enough to satisfy everyone, someone would always want to go beyond whatever bounds are set.

This is part of it.

The rest is primarily these two issues:

 

On 6/13/2019 at 10:31 AM, Castrum said:

The clipping will be goofy and the tiny toons will be a quick PvP exploit for hitboxes or just simply LoS/seeing them in the first place. Can't say I agree with this.

and
 

On 6/11/2019 at 1:14 PM, HelenCarnate said:

Also caves already cause odd camera issues with tall characters.  Adding another several feet of height would cause even more issues.

 

On 6/11/2019 at 1:37 PM, Black Zot said:

 

Caves are badly designed in general and could use a complete overhaul.

Right there.

It's not JUST an overhaul of the sizing scale.

It's something that requires digging in and reworking multiple systems (including mapping).

A lot of effort expended for basically NO realistic returns.

[Chuckers]

I know you said that things would work inside buildings, but outside can be a problem as well. I have a Crab and with his arms, he's probably my tallest character.  When I run around Sharkshead, he sometimes get caught on pipes/scaffolding/etc that other characters can run under. As a jumper, I have the uncanny knack for jumping through the exact space it takes to fit into a set of metal girders that I couldn't get into if I tried. Getting out of them with a bigger character is REALLY a pain in the butt.

(Yes, I *JUST* remembered the /stuck command and will have to try that next time.)

That being said, making a tiny character would be awesome 🙂 I don't PvP so I don't care about the hit box 🙂 

Edited August 19, 2019 by Chuckers

[Olly]

Three issues for me personally:

 

(1) I would hate to play these over-sized characters in indoor maps.  Looking like I'm constantly about to hit my head on something is definitely going to change my experience.

 

(2) I would hate to be in a team with one of these oversized characters in an indoor map. Being behind one would be like watching a concert I paid good money for while a 12-ft. tall, 300-lb. person is in front of me.  And god forbid there are *more than one* in a team.  I will quit the team outright if that player also happens to be a mastermind with pets.  Nothing personal, but this is my game experience.

 

(3) I'm not sure if you'll run into problems with clipping for all the various costume pieces designed.  If so, that severely limits what people can style their 12-ft. character as.  Which severely limits the benefits of having this function made live.

 

As for PVP. I did have a weird experience in Live where my very small character was accidentally much harder to kill because of their size.  So yes, I have personal experience that this can be problematic. 

 

 

[IllayKonon]

On 6/15/2019 at 2:14 AM, Vanden said:

I just don't see the point. We can already be really big and really small. Why do we need to be able to be bigger or smaller? It would never be enough to satisfy everyone, someone would always want to go beyond whatever bounds are set.

Because characters like Ant-Man are a thing. We all want to be as big as DE monsters and as small as Clockwork Gears. 8 feet is just not big enough for a size-shifter or a Hulkbuster or Transformer-like bot and 4 feet isn't small enough for a fairy or a living toy concept. Those sizes are already in the game, and if we want to feel super (which this game mostly allows you to do), why not go to a bigger extent? 

Edited August 22, 2019 by IllayKonon

[Blood Speaker]

On 8/19/2019 at 6:47 AM, Chuckers said:

Yes, I *JUST* remembered the /stuck command and will have to try that next time.

Just a heads-up on this: if the space you're "stuck" in is large enough to comfortably accommodate the character (as those metal scaffolds/towers often ARE), using /stuck won't work; you'll just port to the same space. That's why I *really* hate those things. They badly need to be completely "enclosed", geometry-wise, if not visually. It should not be *possible* to get inside them, in the first place.