Best AoE stalker?

[StrikerFox]

Tossed together an AoE chart for Stalker primaries. Power list, what type of AoE it is, range, area they effect in square ft. Also their recharge with about +235% in each power. Just so we can see how quickly the AoE's can string together. Looks like ElM, SM and Spines are the best. I like DB too because it's so fast and the Sweep Combo is part of it's best attack chain.

 

Made this pretty quick so there's probably a few mistakes. EM has a cone now but I don't have the data on that. Not sure how RadM works, Mids' shows almost all it's powers are an 8' PBAoEs. I remember Chain Induction chaining all the time during live and is why I tossed it in. Good luck hitting max targets with Head Splitter and Golden Dragonfly. Hope this helps.

 

Used this area calculator to figure out the square footage: https://www.calculator.net/area-calculator.html

 

 

 

Edited March 21, 2021 by StrikerFox
Updated with data from Bopper.

[Bopper]

40 minutes ago, StrikerFox said:

Tossed together an AoE chart for Stalker primaries. Power list, what type of AoE it is, range, area they effect in square ft. Also their recharge with about +235% in each power. Just so we can see how quickly the AoE's can string together. Looks like ElM, SM and Spines are the best. I like DB too because it's so fast and the Sweep Combo is part of it's best attack chain.

 

Made this pretty quick so there's probably a few mistakes. EM has a cone now but I don't have the data on that. Not sure how RadM works, Mids' shows almost all it's powers are an 8' PBAoEs. I remember Chain Induction chaining all the time during live and is why I tossed it in. Good luck hitting max targets with Head Splitter and Golden Dragonfly. Hope this helps.

 

Used this area calculator to figure out the square footage: https://www.calculator.net/area-calculator.html

 

 

 

I like your style, if you're willing to go a little further in your analysis, I believe targets have a 3ft diameter hit box, so you could effectively add a 1.5 ft radius all around your coverage area (easy to do on a PBAoE, takes some extra work on cones).

 

As for stalker, is has a cone called Power Crash, which does 108.54 base damage in a 10'/120 degree cone on a 16s recharge. It looks like you include average crit damage in your analysis, so make that 119.39 base damage.

 

Rad Melee has Proton Sweep (7', 75 degree) which does 79.5226 base damage (before crit), which is on an 8s recharge. Also it has Atom Smasher which is a 10' radius PBAoE with 86.1958 base damage (before crit), which is on a 22s recharge.

[StrikerFox]

7 hours ago, Bopper said:

I like your style, if you're willing to go a little further in your analysis, I believe targets have a 3ft diameter hit box, so you could effectively add a 1.5 ft radius all around your coverage area (easy to do on a PBAoE, takes some extra work on cones).

 

As for stalker, is has a cone called Power Crash, which does 108.54 base damage in a 10'/120 degree cone on a 16s recharge. It looks like you include average crit damage in your analysis, so make that 119.39 base damage.

 

Rad Melee has Proton Sweep (7', 75 degree) which does 79.5226 base damage (before crit), which is on an 8s recharge. Also it has Atom Smasher which is a 10' radius PBAoE with 86.1958 base damage (before crit), which is on a 22s recharge.

 

Thanks! Updated the screenshot with Rad and EM. Not sure if I understand what you mean by hit box. How does a target's hit box affect a player's AoE range?

[Bopper]

48 minutes ago, StrikerFox said:

 

Thanks! Updated the screenshot with Rad and EM. Not sure if I understand what you mean by hit box. How does a target's hit box affect a player's AoE range?

The center of a target does not need to be within the area of the attack. If any small portion of their hit box lands within the area of your attack, they will get hit. So, for an 8' radius PBAoE, and target could be standing 9' away from you and get hit because their hit box will slightly intersect with your attack. Their diameter is 3 ft, so even though their center is 9ft away, their hit box ranges from 7.5 ft to 10.5 ft away. It's that 7.5 ft portion that allows them to get hit.

[StrikerFox]

1 hour ago, Bopper said:

The center of a target does not need to be within the area of the attack. If any small portion of their hit box lands within the area of your attack, they will get hit. So, for an 8' radius PBAoE, and target could be standing 9' away from you and get hit because their hit box will slightly intersect with your attack. Their diameter is 3 ft, so even though their center is 9ft away, their hit box ranges from 7.5 ft to 10.5 ft away. It's that 7.5 ft portion that allows them to get hit.

 

Let's take BS, Slice for example. 10'/19 °. Including hit box, it would be 13'/21.5°? 

[Bopper]

1 minute ago, StrikerFox said:

 

Let's take BS, Slice for example. 10'/19 °. Including hit box, it would be 13'/21.5°? 

No, it's more involved. The radius would be 11.5', but there won't be a simple angle change. I worked out the math on scratch paper once, but like all scratch paper it got thrown away. I'll see if I can find more paper and I'll provide you a formula after I derive it

[Bopper]

1 hour ago, StrikerFox said:

 

Let's take BS, Slice for example. 10'/19 °. Including hit box, it would be 13'/21.5°? 

Ok, I worked out the math. This is a two-dimensional slice only, I am not looking at the vertical plane as that greatly complicates things. But it is worth mentioning, you can improve cone performance by jumping over enemies and aim down to effectively turn the base of your cone into a PBAoE.

 

In this math, I assume your character is a 3 foot diameter cylinder, so enemies can't be in the area you already occupy. I also will assume enemies will have a 3 foot diameter cylinder that make up their hit box (some enemies will be smaller, like Rikti monkeys, but typically 3 ft diameter should be good). For the purposes of the math, I'll be using radius, so I'll be adding 1.5 ft to a bunch of things.

 

To calculate the area of a PBAoE, we will want to add the 1.5 ft to your radius, but we will also want to subtract out the 1.5 ft radius you occupy in the center. So calculating the area of a PBAoE will simply be:

Area_PBAoE = pi * (Radius+1.5)^2 - pi * 1.5 ^2

 

To calculate the area of a Cone (for Arcs 180 degrees or less) while also subtracting out the area of the cone your character occupies is more complicated. I won't bore you too much with how I derived it, but I'll break it out into componets that were derived and then sum it up.

A = (Arc/360) * pi * (Radius + 1.5)^2 // extend the reach of your cone to include hitbox of enemy

B = 2 * 1.5 * Radius  // Add in the area that extends along the sides of the cone

C = 2 * (1/4) * pi * 1.5^2 // Add in the two quarter circles that connects the extended sides of the cones with the extended reach of the cone.

D = - pi * 1.5^2 // Subtract the area your character occupies

E = (180 - Arc)/360 * pi * 1.5^2 // Add back in the portion of the area your character occupies that does not have extended cone coverage.

 

Area_Cone = A + B + C + D + E  // Simplify the numbers and get the following

= (Arc/360) * pi * (Radius + 1.5)^2 + 2 * 1.5 * Radius - (Arc/360) * pi * 1.5^2

 

 

 

 

[Frosticus]

In actual gameplay savage comes out pretty far ahead ime.

[Shred Monkey]

On 6/12/2019 at 2:07 PM, Galaxy Brain said:

Kind of an odd question, but I remember my claws/nin stalker being a blast since it had 2 cones you could crit with. What other stalker builds have good AoE?

 

Claws doesn't have 2 cones.

 

I apologize if someone already said this, but I didn't see it in my brief scan of the responses.  They made eviscerate into a ST attack on stalkers.  Apparently taking away spin wasn't enough neutering.  Claws is also unfriendly for generating a guaranteed AS crit since it has low recharge values.   Thus, IMHO, claws is a powerset that is MUCH better on a scrapper than a stalker.  Many other sets have more a stalker-friendly powers lineups.  It's unfortunate, because I like the concept of a claws stalker.  It was my first 50 on homecoming.  And it was my first retired toon on homecoming after I learned a bunch of what I just wrote.

 

[tidge]

Holy Necro! I have two stalkers, of them The Spines/Bio is a multi-target machine:

• lvl 12 Spine Burst, which is probably my least favorite multi-target attack on the character
• lvl 26 Ripper, (a melee cone, but a brutal one)
• lvl 28 DNA Siphon, a %proc PBAoE
• lvl 32 Throw Spines, the ranged cone, boosted to 42+ feet also with %proc

This character is quite good at helping to grind through "defeat all missions" in x8 SF/TF... to the point where I almost always open up with one of the above attacks without bothering to first identify the 'harder' targets. 

 

Since this is an AoE discussion: One of the fun side effects of Stalkers always having Hide toggled on is that the power is a perfectly acceptable place to include the Kismet +Accuracy (really +ToHit) enhancement which allows for slightly more %damage slotting from procs (which tend to work best on AoE attacks).

[kelika2]

This is one oldass thread here.

Dark Melee got some buffs recently, Touch of Fear>Shadowmaul is pretty fun these days.  Touch is an AoE and Maul got an arc boost

Kin Melee's Burst from hide still has a near 100% crit chance

 

Dark Melee/Fiery Aura might be your best aoe stalker bet.  Also note the initial hit of Burn can crit, dot does not.  also any dot (caltrops, spine poison, etc) can and will interrupt hide/placate/ATO1 proc

[PhoenixV117]

I’ve got a savage / SD stalker maxed out.

 

got two port aoes which are nice.

savage feels like it wasn’t super well thought out though.

DOT damage is meh.

and SD means you have to take the heal destiny incarnate.

 

id robably go with bio as secondary as it has a DPS aura and some leech’s which do damage and heal you. 

 

Im biassed though because Bio rocks on my scrapper and sentinel, I only chose shield as I didn’t want to go bio three times... I probably should have though 😂

[PhoenixV117]

On 3/21/2021 at 6:37 AM, StrikerFox said:

Tossed together an AoE chart for Stalker primaries. Power list, what type of AoE it is, range, area they effect in square ft. Also their recharge with about +235% in each power. Just so we can see how quickly the AoE's can string together. Looks like ElM, SM and Spines are the best. I like DB too because it's so fast and the Sweep Combo is part of it's best attack chain.

 

Made this pretty quick so there's probably a few mistakes. EM has a cone now but I don't have the data on that. Not sure how RadM works, Mids' shows almost all it's powers are an 8' PBAoEs. I remember Chain Induction chaining all the time during live and is why I tossed it in. Good luck hitting max targets with Head Splitter and Golden Dragonfly. Hope this helps.

 

Used this area calculator to figure out the square footage: https://www.calculator.net/area-calculator.html

 

 

 

I have no idea how to read this 😱😂

[WillParkinson]

On 3/22/2021 at 9:29 AM, tidge said:

Holy Necro! I have two stalkers, of them The Spines/Bio is a multi-target machine:

• lvl 12 Spine Burst, which is probably my least favorite multi-target attack on the character
• lvl 26 Ripper, (a melee cone, but a brutal one)
• lvl 28 DNA Siphon, a %proc PBAoE
• lvl 32 Throw Spines, the ranged cone, boosted to 42+ feet also with %proc

This character is quite good at helping to grind through "defeat all missions" in x8 SF/TF... to the point where I almost always open up with one of the above attacks without bothering to first identify the 'harder' targets. 

 

Since this is an AoE discussion: One of the fun side effects of Stalkers always having Hide toggled on is that the power is a perfectly acceptable place to include the Kismet +Accuracy (really +ToHit) enhancement which allows for slightly more %damage slotting from procs (which tend to work best on AoE attacks).

This sounds very interesting. Do you happen to have a build you'd be willing to share?

[ZemX]

27 minutes ago, WillParkinson said:

This sounds very interesting. Do you happen to have a build you'd be willing to share?

Check out Croax's tier list and builds thread in this forum.  There are a whole ton of builds in there to start with.  

 

You might also consider Rad Armor as a secondary if you want AoE.  It has two powers, Radiation Therapy and Ground Zero which can be turned into proc nukes if you want to go that way.  And as a hybrid resistance/regen/absorb set it's more sturdy that a simple resistance vs. defense debate would lead you to believe.

 

Regarding any AoE though, when comparing sets to see which one has "better" AoE than another, I think people tend to ignore the A in AoE too much.  Area is a big deal (pun intended).  A 7ft 50deg cone is lucky to hit two enemies without first packing them together.  Wider 7ft cones like in BS and NB can more easily hit three nearby attackers, but won't reach beyond them.    Meanwhile slightly longer cones like in Staff, DB, IM, FM can easily hit multiple rows of enemies with a little positioning.  And of course Claws and Spines have their long range cones.  

 

I haven't seen any really good comparison of melee AoE sets.  The old DPS spreadsheet a lot of people will point to is terrible for AoE.  You only have to see Ninja Blade at the top by a mile to know it's seriously borked (mostly because it unrealistically assumes you will always hit the target cap for AoEs and Golden Dragonfly once had, essentially only on paper, the ability to hit ten targets).  Also.. DPA is kind of not as relevant for AoE as it is for ST.   You don't have an unbroken AoE attack chain in any of these sets so the only damage you're hindering with a slower animating AoE is that of your other ST attacks.  That's not nothing, but has to be weighed against how many targets you hit with that AoE.  That is multiplying your DPS.  Reliably hitting ten targets with an AoE is far more important than just hitting two or three with a tiny cone, no matter how quick it is.

 

Never tried Spines.  Can't get past the aesthetics myself, but it sure looks fantastic on paper.  I've tried Staff, Ninja Blade, and Ice Melee to 50 so far and Staff is an AoE beast out of that group because of more generous areas and faster recharge, not to mention some combo mechanic add-ons.  Ice is quite nice as well though seems a bit slower.  Ninja Blade.. not so much.  I can usually hit three with Flashing Steel and it's fast, but Golden Dragonfly is rarely more than one hit, maybe two unless things are super packed tight, and it suffers from a 50% hidden crit because it's still classed as an AoE.  bleah.   I've had some lowbie Rad Melee, Street Justice, Savage, and Elec Melee stalkers but none as caught on with me as much as the previously mentioned ones.  Elec definitely has plenty of AoE even if you discount Jacob's Ladder for its small cone area.  I'll probably ramp that one up next.  Street Justice, for all its popularity, isn't that great in AoE.  Spinning Strike sort of behaves like a decent cone even though it's implemented as a TAoE w/6ft radius but it still won't hit its target cap of 10.  Six if you have them absolutely packed together.  It's a great ST bruiser tho.

[tidge]

1 hour ago, WillParkinson said:

This sounds very interesting. Do you happen to have a build you'd be willing to share?

 

 

This is a pretty straightforward set of choices. I don't try to 'cap' anything except fun.

 

I like having Weave available ASAP, but the build would be more fun IMO if DNA Siphon was taken earlier in the build. This is one of my rare builds where I think Hasten is important, mostly because of the secondary.

 

I don't use MIDS, and exporting has 'gone sour' for me, here goes:

 

Level 50 Mutation Stalker

Primary Power Set: Spines
Secondary Power Set: Bio Armor
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Lunge -- SprAssMar-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprAssMar-Dmg/Rchg:50(3), SprAssMar-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(3), SprAssMar-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(5), SprAssMar-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(5), SprAssMar-Rchg/Rchg Build Up:50(7)
Level 1: Hide -- Ksm-ToHit+:30(A), LucoftheG-Rchg+:50(7)
Level 2: Hardened Carapace -- UnbGrd-Max HP%:50(A), UnbGrd-ResDam:50(9), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx:50(36), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam:50(36)
Level 4: Boundless Energy -- Pnc-Heal/EndRedux:50(A), Pnc-Heal/Rchg:50(9), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg:50(11), Pnc-Heal:50(11), Pnc-Heal/+End:50(13), EndMod-I:50(50)
Level 6: Assassin's Impaler -- SprStlGl-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprStlGl-Dmg/Rchg:50(13), SprStlGl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(15), SprStlGl-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(15), SprStlGl-Rchg/Hide%:50(17), Hct-Dam%:50(17)
Level 8: Build Up -- GssSynFr--ToHit:50(A), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg:50(19), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx:50(19), GssSynFr--Rchg/EndRdx:50(21), GssSynFr--ToHit/EndRdx:50(21), GssSynFr--Build%:50(23)
Level 10: Environmental Modification -- ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP:50(A), ShlWal-Def:50(23), LucoftheG-Rchg+:50(25)
Level 12: Spine Burst -- FuroftheG-ResDeb%:50(A), Arm-Dam%:50(25), Arm-Dmg:50(27), Arm-Dmg/EndRdx:50(27), Arm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(29), Arm-Dmg/Rchg:50(29)
Level 14: Fly -- WntGif-ResSlow:50(A)
Level 16: Adaptation
Level 18: Impale -- Apc-Dmg:50(A), Apc-Dmg/Rchg:50(31), Apc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(31), Apc-Dmg/EndRdx:50(31), Apc-Dam%:50(33)
Level 20: Ablative Carapace -- Prv-Heal:50(A), Prv-Heal/EndRdx:50(33), Prv-EndRdx/Rchg:50(33), Prv-Heal/Rchg:50(34), Prv-Heal/Rchg/EndRdx:50(34), Prv-Absorb%:50(34)
Level 22: Kick -- FrcFdb-Rechg%:50(A)
Level 24: Tough -- GldArm-3defTpProc:50(A), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+:30(36)
Level 26: Ripper -- SprAvl-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx:50(37), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(37), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(37), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(39), SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc:50(39)
Level 28: Hasten -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(39)
Level 30: Weave -- Rct-Def:50(A), Rct-Def/EndRdx:50(40), Rct-EndRdx/Rchg:50(40), Rct-Def/Rchg:50(40), Rct-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:50(42), Rct-ResDam%:50(42)
Level 32: Throw Spines -- Rgn-Dmg:50(A), Rgn-Dmg/Rchg:50(42), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(43), Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx:50(43), Rgn-Knock%:50(43)
Level 35: Moonbeam -- StnoftheM-Acc/Dmg:50(A), StnoftheM-Dmg/EndRdx:50(45), StnoftheM-Dmg/ActRdx/Rchg:50(45), StnoftheM-Acc/ActRdx/Rng:50(45), StnoftheM-Dam%:50(46), GldJvl-Dam%:40(46)
Level 38: DNA Siphon -- TchoftheN-Heal:50(A), TchoftheN-Acc/Heal:30(46), Erd-%Dam:30(48), Obl-%Dam:50(48), ScrDrv-Dam%:50(48), TchoftheN-%Dam:50(50)
Level 41: Shadow Meld -- LucoftheG-Rchg+:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(50)
Level 44: Parasitic Aura -- RechRdx-I:50(A)
Level 47: Hover -- LucoftheG-Rchg+:50(A)
Level 49: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Rchg+:50(A)
Level 1: Assassination
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- UnbLea-Stlth:50(A)
Level 2: Rest -- IntRdx-I:50(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I:50(A)
Level 2: Health -- Mrc-Rcvry+:40(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I:50(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%:50(A)
Level 16: Defensive Adaptation
Level 16: Efficient Adaptation
Level 16: Offensive Adaptation
------------

 

 

 

[KelvinKole]

Fire melee should probably get more love. Yea, breath of fire is bad but fire sword circle is butter. It’s right in that sweet spot of large radius, good damage, and standard 20s recharge. Having recently got my fire/shield to tuned up, Shield charge -> FSC -> Fire ball is awesome. 
 

the common complaint on the single target side usually that greater fire sword is bad, but I just skip it and cycle through scorch, fire sword, creamate, and fast AS. Feels good. 

Edited May 13, 2021 by KelvinKole

[tidge]

Looking back at my Spines/Bio build I feel like I should explain some things about my thinking:

• Except for DNA Siphon, I am avoiding franken-slotting powers with %damage procs. I feel like the Stalker benefits more from set bonuses (especially +Accuracy) and constant attacking (Global Recharge).
• The only attack I would consider adding a %damage proc to would be Throw Spines (as a sixth slot), because Ranged Cone. However: This power has a relatively fast recharge, a relatively small (range) cone. I suspect adding a simple Range IO would improve the damage output (against large/distant spawns, not pylons) more than hoping for %damage. (This may be the most relevant comment for this AoE thread)
• I don't use Shadow Meld all that often, so the second slot could be redistributed. I use it primarily to time against certain AV/GM attacks as well as a OH $#%+ button.
• The Kismet piece in Hide is IMO a no-brainer, but it could be considered over-kill. For builds that include a Snipe, I always consider adding that Kismet piece since the fast snipes get a damage bonus from ToHit bonuses (up to +22%)

Obviously, the defenses/resists can be adjusted to taste. /Bio has Adaptation (3 different flavors) and Ablative Carapace available for most content, if you standard/slow level up with those powers you will get a sense of just how they contribute to survival (as opposed to raw Defense/Resist values). I don't always remember to toggle on Tough.

[ZemX]

3 hours ago, tidge said:

• Except for DNA Siphon, I am avoiding franken-slotting powers with %damage procs. I feel like the Stalker benefits more from set bonuses (especially +Accuracy) and constant attacking (Global Recharge).

That's the hard part of the trade-off for me.  I have a few Rad Armor Stalkers and on one I went healing with the two AoEs in the secondary, but they can accept damage procs, so it's popular to turn them into proc-nukes.   With relatively long base recharge times, the procs tend to be pretty reliable on each activation, is the way I understand it.  But I still didn't put more than one proc in them because I didn't want to lose the set bonuses.

[Oysterhead]

2 hours ago, ZemX said:

That's the hard part of the trade-off for me.  I have a few Rad Armor Stalkers and on one I went healing with the two AoEs in the secondary, but they can accept damage procs, so it's popular to turn them into proc-nukes.   With relatively long base recharge times, the procs tend to be pretty reliable on each activation, is the way I understand it.  But I still didn't put more than one proc in them because I didn't want to lose the set bonuses.

 

I'd recommend proc-bombing out Ground Zero but still using Radiation Therapy for Heal/End Mod. Ground Zero heals others but not you, and is primarily a -def debuff to enemies with some damage. If you slot GZ for healing, which is relatively small for its very long recast, you'll maybe be able to save someone once in a blue moon. You could slot for -def debuff, but its base -15% with 10 second duration, which your enhancing won't do much for. Each proc % though is more than a 100% increase in damage, and fully slotted with procs it becomes nearly a nuke/second judgement power. Even if you enhance its recharge some, it'll be at max proc chance.

Then have Rad Therapy as your 'click when you need health/end' power!