Your Nemesis

[Ultimo]

Over at Champions Online, they had a fantastic option to create a Nemesis for your character.  This is definitely thematic, most significant heroes have a nemesis (some have several... Batman has Joker, but Superman has Luthor, Darkseid and Brainiac).  It was kind of nifty when that nemesis would show up in a mission here or there.

 

I don't know if it's even feasible, but it would be AWESOME if we could devise a way to incorporate this idea into THIS game.  How awesome would it be if you were to find your Nemesis has randomly appeared in a mission you're on.  Imagine if you were on a mission with several players and SEVERAL of these nemeses turned up!

 

Any thoughts?

[biostem]

11 minutes ago, Ultimo said:

Any thoughts?

This already exists - make an AE arc and you can add all the custom enemies you want!

 

Alternatively, I wonder if they could kind of "hijack" the Kheldian code that used to add the Void Hunters, to instead add this custom nemesis in their place.  A simple option would be to add a tiny chance of replacing a humanoid NPC model in instanced missions with a designated costume save file...

[Rudra]

I agree with @biostem. Having played CO, I know what you are talking about. And the Nemesis system in CO was pathetic. You were limited to 3 different types of nemeses, all three overlapped on their stories to the point of it being almost being a single story*, the nemesis was a joke of an opponent (unless you accidentally made that one dark villain I can't remember the name of), and (s)he only showed up in specific (nemesis) missions. AE lets you make much more varied characters as your nemesis, you can give them much richer backgrounds than the cut and paste stereotype of CO's nemesis system, and you can have a much greater variety of missions and arcs for you and your nemesis to engage in.

 

*- The intro mission was always the same, the major plot missions were always the same, and the defeat and imprison your nemesis mission was almost the same. Only the filler missions in between would be different, and that was only for so long as the game did not pull the same mission from its very limited pool of minor missions. Even the nemesis jail break mission is the same with all the same villains helping.

[El D]

While I love the idea from a narrative RP stand-point, I'll have to echo what @biostem and @Rudra said. I have no doubt that the Homecoming team could make a more interesting Nemesis system than what Champions Online has (I was not at all impressed with it either while I played), however at that point it'd probably be both easier and more prudent to have spent that time expanding AE with new options, mobs, and mission types rather than attempt to make a 'canon Player Nemesis storyline' that won't appease everyone. There's a much more modular system already in the game, so why not use that?

 

That said, more 'integrated' versions of AE run by other groups could bridge that gap somewhat - and definitely be more interesting to use. Vanguard having their own holo-deck version, the Midnight Squad having a magical version, Fort Trident and the Crucible each having fancy Danger Room training facilities - basically new instances where the existing AE system can be utilized in thematically appropriate settings. There's a number of AE Buildings that are almost always empty or next to empty, and some of them are in spots where it made no sense for them to be to begin with (like the Rikti War Zone).

Edited February 22, 2023 by El D

[kito]

Also side from the AE system you can just talk to a villan in the game ooc. Set them up as your Nemesis and RP it out. Make AE mish for eachother to do. Etc 

[Rudra]

31 minutes ago, kito said:

Also side from the AE system you can just talk to a villan in the game ooc. Set them up as your Nemesis and RP it out. Make AE mish for eachother to do. Etc 

That could be an interesting thing to add to the game. Either in AE or through another method. Random missions or a pool of missions that a player can select where the nemesis player (and his/her/its team if desired) and hero player (and his/her/its team if desired) face off. Since it could be PvP (unless left as PvE for strictly RP purposes?), the nemesis or hero can win in their perpetual tug-o-war. With defeat coming from actual defeat or character retreat. Either way, having an actual player as your nemesis provides far greater range in the things you can do than if you simply have a mob that blindly fights to death.

[Ultimo]

The problem with using AE (and I've done so), is that these enemies never appear except when doing THAT mission.  I feel like it would be cool to have my nemesis (or a teammate's) appear in a mission at any time might be kind of nifty.  Imagine rolling confidently through a mission, and suddenly you find yourself face to face with an Arch Villain.  That cakewalk might suddenly get very interesting.

 

I'm not suggesting having a whole story built around each nemesis (and you're right, CO's system was a bit limited), but it would be cool to have a nemesis that could just show up.  I hadn't thought about the Kheldian thing, that might be a way of introducing these characters into missions... the code is already in the game for that.

 

Anyway, it's just a thought.

[Rudra]

The problem with the Void Hunter code is that it does not differentiate. It simply replaces a random number of spawns with Voids. If that were to be applied to a Nemesis, then if you were running solo at normal difficulty, the actual boss you are supposed to be fighting could be replaced with your nemesis. If you are running at a difficulty or with a team where multiple bosses can be on the map, then multiuple copies of your nemesis could appear. If your nemesis is an AV, then it would only replace AVs, and the single AV on the map could be your nemesis disrupting the established story.

 

For the code to work, it would need to be modified so that only a single instance could trigger, and that instance would not replace established story arc bosses/EBs/AVs. Or at the very least, not trigger more than once per player on the mission.

 

The other problem with the code, is providing players the ability to design their nemesis without giving players the opportunity to munchkin their nemesis for their gain, like the old green mito missions players were making in AE for a while.

 

And from an RP point of view, the nemesis being implemented in this fashion has no depth. Just another random mob, that may be an AV, on the map with no story involving him/her/it.

 

As opposed to AE where you can choose for the map to be random, the enemies to be random (I think), and can change everything about the mission/arc for the next story at will and just re-publish it so it isn't lost or get a new number.

[Ultimo]

Well, I'm not a coder, so I've no idea how feasible the idea is.  I just wanted to put it out there.

[kito]

1 hour ago, Ultimo said:

The problem with using AE (and I've done so), is that these enemies never appear except when doing THAT mission.  I feel like it would be cool to have my nemesis (or a teammate's) appear in a mission at any time might be kind of nifty.  Imagine rolling confidently through a mission, and suddenly you find yourself face to face with an Arch Villain.  That cakewalk might suddenly get very interesting.

 

I'm not suggesting having a whole story built around each nemesis (and you're right, CO's system was a bit limited), but it would be cool to have a nemesis that could just show up.  I hadn't thought about the Kheldian thing, that might be a way of introducing these characters into missions... the code is already in the game for that.

 

Anyway, it's just a thought.

 

But your Nemesis showing up at random is not a thing. Villans don't make plots around the hero (most the time) they have there own thing. The hero stumbles into the villans plot and stops it. Villans are the DM hero's are just the player 😉 

 

 

Again if you really want to see your villan in the "field" go to PvP zones rp and fight eachother stop them from getting missile coeds. Or bringing shipments from the isles into the city. 

 

Having a Nemesis is fine. But why? Are you just a big hero and evil people hate you? What part of the city do you protect? Who are the gangs and villens there? What have you done to get in there way? Why would they want to spend time and resources just on you? Who do they send? Why? Etc  

Edited February 22, 2023 by kito

[SuggestorK]

Also to add even in Champions Online they used only special Missions/Alerts designed for the Nemesis System to use those Critters/and Nemesis, you couldnt find em elsewhere in other content.

 

But the System is nice and i would love it, but surely it was a coding nightmare at this point to do that.

 

Greetings

[Zepp]

I made a John Woo toon and now I have to put together an AE arc so he can fight Tarantino and the Axis of Ugly Violence... on the journey, members of the Poetic Violence Brigade such as Chow Yun-Fat, Fengyi Zhang, John Travolta, Jean Claude van Damme, among others join Woo to fight for the soul of action movies and the world...

[Doc_Scorpion]

15 hours ago, El D said:

There's a much more modular system already in the game, so why not use that?

Because AE is not the open world.  I mean, fighting your "nemesis" in the Danger Room is cool and all, but it's apples and the thing least like apples you can imagine.
 

 

11 hours ago, kito said:

Having a Nemesis is fine. But why? Are you just a big hero and evil people hate you? What part of the city do you protect? Who are the gangs and villens there? What have you done to get in there way? Why would they want to spend time and resources just on you? Who do they send? Why? Etc  

It's probably not impossible to borrow the (Resistance or Loyalist) tech from Goldside and rework it into a branching "choose your own adventure" style story arc that would allow the player to answer those questions...  But it would certainly be an incredible amount of work to do right, and PITA beyond belief to debug and playtest.

[El D]

3 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

Because AE is not the open world.  I mean, fighting your "nemesis" in the Danger Room is cool and all, but it's apples and the thing least like apples you can imagine.
 

 

It's more meant to provide a better roleplay set up. AE arcs where 'My Nemesis is attacking a Vanguard facility' or 'The Midnight Squad has word about a powerful demon they want me to look into' would work a lot better when the player can actually go to those places to run said missions, rather than starting them from either an empty AE Building or an AE full of farming teams. Granted no, that's not remotely the same thing as a full-on open world-style mission instances, but it'd be a lot more immediately implementable.

 

Though, thinking about that, Tip missions could seemingly work for an actual open world set up. If a player designed Nemesis could be linked to Tip/Morality missions, that's a baked-in random generator of 'random things for the player's Nemesis to be doing' that can be expanded on. Player provides a costume file, slaps a name on them, maybe picks a pre-made enemy group for them to be in-charge of/working with, and the game takes it from there.

Edited February 22, 2023 by El D

[Rudra]

Given the nature of tip missions, that would be less facing off against your nemesis and more cleaning up after recurring villain.

 

Edit: And aside from the lack of intro mission, key plan mission, and capture mission, is the same thing CO does with their nemesis system. You would need a massive pool of missions that aren't little warehouse storming missions with random objective to make it worthwhile. Otherwise you have the same pathetic system CO has with less background material.

 

Edit again: If you want a nemesis system that works well, you need to use AE (or a cooperative player). Then you take a previous suggestion that lets AE missions link to zone doors instead of just using the AE Danger Room portal so you can run across the map dealing with your nemesis who will actually have a backstory (that you make) with thugs/henchmen (that you can make or take from existing factions) on an open world environment that doesn't relegate you to small or tiny maps with random objectives like the tip missions.

Edited February 22, 2023 by Rudra

[Doc_Scorpion]

1 hour ago, El D said:

It's more meant to provide a better roleplay set up.

That's fine for roleplayers.  Then, there's the rest of us who play the game's content...  I'm looking at something more "choose your adventure" than "write your adventure".

[Rudra]

6 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

It's probably not impossible to borrow the (Resistance or Loyalist) tech from Goldside and rework it into a branching "choose your own adventure" style story arc that would allow the player to answer those questions...  But it would certainly be an incredible amount of work to do right, and PITA beyond belief to debug and playtest.

Ther problem with a 'choose your adventure' to this as opposed to a 'write your adventure' is that it requires the nemesis to fall within a limited scope. This works gold side because players aren't dealing with something as personal to their character as a nemesis. Instead, you are navigating your way through an existing story that is not dependent on your character being that specific character. All that matters for gold side is what your alignment is.

 

When dealing with something as personal to a character as a nemesis, this sort of plug and play approach fails spectacularly. It was a huge problem with the CO system because the missions for your nemesis were all plug and play. So your nemesis would do things that made no sense. Like having a Brute nemesis who can barely make a coherent sentence with his/her limited abilities assembling a working diamond-powered death ray to hold the world hostage. Or your Mastermind nemesis who uses excessively convoluted language being able to make that exact same death ray, but can't even manage to build a regular bomb. Plug and play nemeses just don't work. There is no buy in, there is no relevance to what you would actually expect from your nemesis, and there is nothing actually linking your nemesis and character to each other.

 

There is no way to make a comprehensive enough system that actually provides even a decent story that fits any possible nemesis a player may think is appropriate for their character. Unless the player makes the story himself/herself so it can actually tie the nemesis and character to each other. That is the failing of a nemesis system and the advantage of the AE system.

 

(Edit: And yes, trying to make such a system would be put gun in mouth and pull trigger levels of PITA, I'd wager.)

Edited February 23, 2023 by Rudra
Edited to correct "assembling" spelling.

[A.I.D.A.]

Next time you get your ass handed to you by a recurring AV in a mission arc, make them your nemesis 🙂

 

Have your hero blame themself for not being strong enough, and angst over the people they failed to save, etc. Basically, mark that arc off as 'failed' in terms of roleplay / character story.

 

That's the best you're likely to get for a 'nemesis system,' since CoH was not designed with that idea in mind. Also, I actually hated the nemesis system in my brief experiences with Champions Online. I only wanted to create my character, I wanted the world to organically give me villains to fight. Being expected to create my own nemesis felt cheap, unrewarding, and like an added burden placed on me before I could finish character creation.

 

Of course, we're all forgetting that Lord Nemesis is the best nemesis.

 

Edited February 23, 2023 by Aida LaCanthe

[BrandX]

I have a Nemesis!  She goes by Silver Mantis 😛

[Jiro Ito]

Maybe a Tip mission specifically designated as a nemesis (lowercase "n") arc could appear for you "Stop Tub Ci from stealing Nectanebo's Kneebone," and from thereafter Tub Ci has become your nemesis and will randomly appear with some Tsoo when you're doing other things, like a Yin TF (I heard you were in Independence Port, $target!  You've interfered with my plans for the last time!").  

 

Don't like Tub Ci?  Don't want a magic-origin nemesis?  Don't grab the Tip.  Wait for a Nemesis (uppercase "N") mission to appear, or Positron (vigilantes, villains and rogues only), or Silver Mantis (vigilantes, heroes, or rogues only), or Vanessa DeVore, or, or, or.  They will constantly interfere with your business, and you will continue to get Tip missions to interfere in theirs.  Bonus points for a nemesis ambush outside of a mission door, in the real world.  "We'll make such beautiful music together, $target!" Maestro yells.  Nemeses will appear ranked according to your activity, ie if on a TF/SF they will always appear as an AV, but if you are solo with AVs disabled they will appear as EBs.

 

Tired of your nemesis?  Use Null the Gull to reset your nemesis and wait for the one you want to pop up, or, don't select a new nemesis and you won't see them trying to foil your MoCuda attempts anymore.

 

Badges!

Antagonist - select a nemesis by running their tip mission

Archenemy - defeat your nemesis after they attempt to sabotage your mission

Foes Like These - defeat a teammate's nemesis after they attempt to sabotage your mission

Guerrilla - defeat any nemesis's ambush

Keep Your Enemies Close - defeat your nemesis 5 times

Feeble Attempt - defeat 5 teammate nemeses 

 

Edited February 23, 2023 by Jiro Ito
badges!

[laudwic]

Taking aside the mechanic to actually build and design your own nemesis, is it possible to insert an ambush code into a mission with a low chance to occur that spawn the Nemesis (with some minions if on a team)? 

 

Or, create a new tip mission at each set of level intervals with the nemesis.  Initially it will be too generic, but, maybe, someday they can have nemesis tip missions based upon origin to allow a little customization.

 

Yeah, with the resources of a volunteer team, I don't see it happening.  Frankly, I'm amazed at what additions have already been made.  Still a fun idea.

[kito]

22 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

That's fine for roleplayers.  Then, there's the rest of us who play the game's content...  I'm looking at something more "choose your adventure" than "write your adventure".

The content in the game means you have no Nemesis? There is no Choose your on Adventure because its just a game with a do this chapter to it. your asking for something Built just for your hero like a nemesis (and also want no lore or Reason to have one out then just well im a hero and hero have villeins. Very meta ) and then also don't want a Wright your own Adventure.

you really want a nemesis? pick one of the villains in the game (Mako seem nice) and there you go. do mish that have Mako in them and beat him up. Do paragon bank mish with AV on and when you fight Mako look your nemesis randomly appeared you just got everything you wanted. 

[Rudra]

A nemesis isn't just some random character that pops up on a recurring basis. A good example of that is that tip mission where your character gets a message from a random character calling you his nemesis because your character apparently routinely caused him problems, and your character's response is "what the hell is this idiot talking about?".

 

A nemesis isn't just a rival character that drives your character to do better either. Rivals can be friends with your character.

 

A nemesis character isn't an obsession of the PC and the nemesis isn't obsessed with the PC (most times). (Even if it does seem that way from time to time.)

 

A nemesis is a character that challenges your character, not as in issuing a challenge, but as in a mirror darkly. There is something about the nemesis character and your character that rings within each other, causing both characters to look at each other and realize "this person is Trouble". That can take the form of visceral hate or grudging (even if only silent) respect for each other. There is something about the nemesis that the character can see himself/herself in and vice versa. Something that keeps the hero character awake at night or wakes up in a cold sweat because his/her nemesis is on the loose again. Something that makes the villain character react the same way over his/her nemesis being back in town or possibly showing up in their latest scheme.

 

Look at Superman and Lex Luthor or Darkseid. There is a strong antipathy on Superman's part when either of those characters are involved. And when he knows he is going up against them, he takes greater caution in his actions than he would for basically any other foe he faces. However, there is a grudging respect between them. Even when Lex Luthor or Darkseid speak of Superman, there is a tone of respect in their comments. (It may be disparaging or even condescending, but there is a level of respect there.) Same with Superman when he speaks to or of them, even if that respect is just what they can and have done to him.

 

Look at Batman and Joker. Batman has an entire Rogue's Gallery of opponents. And despite that, only Joker (and maybe Ras al'Gul) are his nemesis (nemeses). And what are the dynamics between them? Joker is basically a mad version of Batman. A normal who uses his intellect, skills, and gadgets to defeat vastly more powerful foes. (He's beaten Superman on at least 2 different occasions, requiring Batman to save him.) And Ras? Is a mastermind that forces Batman to dig deep and figure out what scheme within schemes is the actual threat and where it is going to come from. There is even a fundamental respect between them, even if it is hidden under the hate.

 

Look at Green Lantern and Synestro. Green Lantern fights from a disadvantage against Synestro. (Who I think may also be fighting from a disadvantage against Green Lantern. I don't remember the yellow lantern vulnerabilities.) Synestro and Green Lantern (Hal Jordan in this case) are mirrors of each other that are routinely opposing each other. Despite facing more powerful foes than Synestro on occasion, Synestro is the only one I can think of that would be Green Lantern's nemesis.

 

So on and so forth. An existing NPC in the game is often a poor nemesis for a PC because there is no link between them. There is no challenge. There is no concern about what that NPC is up to by the PC. Boss, Elite Boss, Archvillain or Hero? Doesn't matter to the PCs. Just another mob to put down. Nothing that would approach the level of rival, let alone nemesis. The only way for those NPCs to be a good nemesis for a PC is if the PC makes his/her character as a nemesis to the NPC for some reason. There is no 'mirror darkly'. There is no driving need to stop the NPC. There is no concern. There is no link.

 

And if there was somehow? Using tips to randomly get the character that makes sense as your character's nemesis? Well, talk to the players still trying to get their Minds of Mayhem badges done because the enemies are randomly assigned. From a much smaller pool of mobs than the tip mission proposal in this thread.

 

Edit: And of equal importance? The nemesis and character must both see each other as a nemesis. If that doesn't happen? Then there is no nemesis. No matter how often the characters wind up facing off.

Edited February 23, 2023 by Rudra

[TheZag]

Maybe it could be added as a mob that AE mission creators could use,  kinda like the doppleganger.  So players could design a nemesis or choose one from a list and it would appear when mission creators use the 'nemesis' mob.  It could allow your nemesis to appear in AE missions you didnt create yourself.

 

[kito]

On 2/22/2023 at 1:31 PM, Doc_Scorpion said:

Because AE is not the open world.  I mean, fighting your "nemesis" in the Danger Room is cool and all

 

 

I don't see why the AE has to be an AE? One mish our SG did once had us go into a ae in ff (we pretended it was an office building).  We did a rp with a few npc toons and went into the AE mish where we found a name and location in the city.  From there we had to search steel canyon for a different player npc who gave us a different AE code to play. We went into the steel ae did the mish and got a base code. Went into the base met the villan (rped by a player) and fell into his "trap" (more or less base puzzles) got out of the base at the exit was a final AE code and Bricktown. Went to the Bricktown AE finished the last chapter. From there did an rp PvP with 5 of our hero's (on LVL 40 toons I think only SO) vs there one LVL 50 villan (was a mm I think) we had to beat there minions and take them down.  It was alot of fun. Took us a few weeks. I don't think any system any dev can make will be better then what you and outher players can make together. That villan was a recurring villan for that sg for about a year until the SG died out. 

 

As for the not open world issue. Use one of the gangs that are in the world. Outcast skulls circle council cover more or less anything you might need for a nemasis.  I believe the villan we fought was from the council.