Are we likely to see taunt get fixed in the near future?

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

I don't really understand the central premise of the OP's post. He said taunt got broken without providing any evidence or even specifying what is actually wrong with taunt.

[InvaderStych]

22 minutes ago, Meknomancer said:

Too much experience of tanking and watching scrappers pull av aggro when i'm standing next to them taunting regardless of the sets i run tells me something isn't working the way it is supposed to.

 

Thx for the link previously. Lumi already mentioned what I would have said about that thread: what she was experience is mob AI behavior when they just start running across a map as far as possible.  I've seen mobs on zone maps run so far away they evaporate from my target window (become no longer targeted). I've chased runners in mission maps all the way back to the door.

 

But that's a separate thing from Taunt/Threat which I *think* relates to the kAfraid (not to be confused with Terrorized which is the result of a Fear Mez) attribute.

 

While Lumi's thread isn't really about Taunt/Threat, necessarily, I'm not ready to discount what you are seeing regarding it. 

 

I play a ton of scrappers, and can easily pull an AVs attention with most of them.  Since I have no idea what the Tank may or may not be doing (can't always tell who is using what) I generally just shrug it off unless I see something highly unusual, like 2 Tanks unable to keep an AV's attention off my /SD scrapper, for example.

 

So, there might be some "there" there, but getting solid empirical evidence of it might be quite difficult.  Figuring out which side of the equation (taunt/threat or mob ai/kAfraid) even more so.

[ZemX]

28 minutes ago, InvaderStych said:

But that's a separate thing from Taunt/Threat which I *think* relates to the kAfraid (not to be confused with Terrorized which is the result of a Fear Mez) attribute.

 

This.  It's not a taunt bug.  Taunt is not some master override of AI behavior.  We know several things that cause mobs to run regardless of Taunt/Threat/Aggro.   Avoid effects in powers cause them to run out of certain damaging effects.  "Positioning" is a power some mobs like Longbow Eagles and Cabal Witches have.  It makes them max. Afraid for a few seconds, which has the intended effect of causing them to run away, then turn around, and continue attacking at range.  It's a hack way to make a "prefers range" AI behavior where none existed in the game engine explicitly.

 

Some of what's being described here could still be AI behavior bugs, pathing problems, or yes, even odd corner cases where Taunt is indeed bugged.  But it's simply not common, and that means it's going to be far, far down anybody's list to even investigate, let alone fix.  Bigger fish.  Etc.

[Captain Fabulous]

3 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

Oh, good, I don't have to excavate that myself.

For the record, I don't believe Taunts are the problem.  Critter scripting/AI is the problem.  Something changed on the original servers, and I commented on it as far back as Issue 16.  It wasn't the Threat calculation or factoring, because if it had been that, critters would've run as soon as they were Taunted.  Nor was it a change to the Taunt mechanic itself, I can't find any evidence of that ever being adjusted.  That only leaves scripting/AI.  At some point, Paragon did something to the scripts/AI which caused a massive change in critter behavior.  That's when the running away and strolling back at a leisurely pace shit started, and when Taunting stopped being reliable.

I think I remember this. IIRC critter AI was changed to make them run away if they were taking damage but weren't able to hurt you. I think this was around the same time they added a fear component to Burn and Caltrops with Floyd saying something like "if you were standing in a patch of fire you would try to run out of it too" and "if you're taking a lot of damage and can't hit your target you too would run away to prevent being defeated".

[Snarky]

44 minutes ago, ZemX said:

 

This.  It's not a taunt bug.  Taunt is not some master override of AI behavior.  We know several things that cause mobs to run regardless of Taunt/Threat/Aggro.   Avoid effects in powers cause them to run out of certain damaging effects.  "Positioning" is a power some mobs like Longbow Eagles and Cabal Witches have.  It makes them max. Afraid for a few seconds, which has the intended effect of causing them to run away, then turn around, and continue attacking at range.  It's a hack way to make a "prefers range" AI behavior where none existed in the game engine explicitly.

 

Some of what's being described here could still be AI behavior bugs, pathing problems, or yes, even odd corner cases where Taunt is indeed bugged.  But it's simply not common, and that means it's going to be far, far down anybody's list to even investigate, let alone fix.  Bigger fish.  Etc.

I am on a Dark Dark Dark Corr now.  I have the fear stare.  But I also have Darkest Night. This is a for -dmg -to hit toggle. I have seen AVs start racing across the map like their ass is on fire when I drop this on them.  Maybe I should turn the toggle off at that point.  But some things in unlife you just gotta enjoy. Not entirely sure but I am pretty sure some are “taunted” when they make the self aware observation they need to start running around like a civilian at a bank robbery….

[Arc-Mage]

To the OP, what everyone is saying is you need to take a look at how your Taunt is slotted. How many slots do you have in Taunt? What Set or IOs do you have in Taunt?

 

You may need to get some ACC or Recharge or maybe even bump up to 50+++. 

It’s not the Power that is the problem it’s how you are slotting it that is most likely the problem.

 

As was suggested earlier, Taunt is Not an override aggro power. It works like almost all other powers in the game. It can miss. It can have zero effect. It can be too slow to be useful. The trick is slotting Taunt in such a way as to overcome all of those potential problems. 

[Mjolnerd]

16 minutes ago, Arc-Mage said:

You may need to get some ACC or Recharge or maybe even bump up to 50+++. 

 

As was suggested earlier, Taunt is Not an override aggro power. It works like almost all other powers in the game. It can miss. It can have zero effect.

 

It's always been my understanding that most taunt powers auto-hit against enemies and only need a to-hit check when used against other players in PVP.

[ZemX]

33 minutes ago, Arc-Mage said:

As was suggested earlier, Taunt is Not an override aggro power. It works like almost all other powers in the game. It can miss. It can have zero effect. It can be too slow to be useful. The trick is slotting Taunt in such a way as to overcome all of those potential problems. 

 

Unnecessary.  Tanker and Brute Taunts are auto-hit.  Taunt enhancement increases duration, which in turn increases the multiplication factor for threat.  That's nice, but the default duration is plenty long enough here.  Only thing I slot in Taunt on my Tankers is a recharge IO.    I'm not saying it isn't possible for a Scrapper to peel aggro from me on a single target like an AV.  I've just never personally seen it, which makes it too rare an occurrence to be worth more slots in Taunt, unless the set bonuses happen to be worth it to you.

[Snarky]

7 minutes ago, ZemX said:

 

Unnecessary.  Tanker and Brute Taunts are auto-hit.  Taunt enhancement increases duration, which in turn increases the multiplication factor for threat.  That's nice, but the default duration is plenty long enough here.  Only thing I slot in Taunt on my Tankers is a recharge IO.    I'm not saying it isn't possible for a Scrapper to peel aggro from me on a single target like an AV.  I've just never personally seen it, which makes it too rare an occurrence to be worth more slots in Taunt, unless the set bonuses happen to be worth it to you.

I always slot Perfect Zinger chance for damage.  I love taking a cheap shot.  If there was an animation for nut punch i would strive to get it on every toon

[InvaderStych]

2 minutes ago, Snarky said:

I love taking a cheap shot.

 

Perfect Zinger %Chance for Emotional Damage. 🤣

[Arc-Mage]

2 minutes ago, ZemX said:

 

Unnecessary.  Tanker and Brute Taunts are auto-hit.  Taunt enhancement increases duration, which in turn increases the multiplication factor for threat.  That's nice, but the default duration is plenty long enough here.  Only thing I slot in Taunt on my Tankers is a recharge IO.    I'm not saying it isn't possible for a Scrapper to peel aggro from me on a single target like an AV.  I've just never personally seen it, which makes it too rare an occurrence to be worth more slots in Taunt, unless the set bonuses happen to be worth it to you.

Your experience is not mine. I’ve had toons with not enough recharge in Taunt, specifically I’m thinking of Recluse, where the AV breaks aggro before the Taunt is recharged. I’ve gone back and slotted my Tank with Recharge and that seemed to do the Trick. 
 

My post still stands as a suggestion for the OP.

[Snarky]

57 minutes ago, Arc-Mage said:

Your experience is not mine. I’ve had toons with not enough recharge in Taunt, specifically I’m thinking of Recluse, where the AV breaks aggro before the Taunt is recharged. I’ve gone back and slotted my Tank with Recharge and that seemed to do the Trick. 
 

My post still stands as a suggestion for the OP.

My Brutes tend to be built for recharge as part of my basic build philosophy.   Game is too damn slow otherwise 

[JasperStone]

9 hours ago, Snarky said:

I always slot Perfect Zinger chance for damage.  I love taking a cheap shot.  If there was an animation for nut punch i would strive to get it on every toon

Well ...

if your character is the right height

and you take kick...

[Meknomancer]

As i said in the 2nd post the only tank i have had 0 problems taunting with has been the bio/axe with a full set of mocking in taunt. Which was also my highest dps tank even before the changes to axe. I appreciate the replies and i know @Luminarahad posted about the power pool but playing the game it felt as if it was applying to taunt in the same way on any tanker i built with only a single slotted taunt, which was every other tank. I will have a look at putting more slots into taunt on those, although as far as i know taunt auto hits outside of pvp so accuracy was never a consideration, i always went for range and recharge and duration, usually the 3 or 4 piece from a set and just boosted it.

[ZemX]

10 hours ago, Arc-Mage said:

Your experience is not mine. I’ve had toons with not enough recharge in Taunt

 

If you had only mentioned recharge, I wouldn't have replied.  You also said ACC, so it's important you and others realize that does nothing in PvE and that slot could be spent elsewhere. That's all.

[Uun]

11 hours ago, Arc-Mage said:

Your experience is not mine. I’ve had toons with not enough recharge in Taunt, specifically I’m thinking of Recluse, where the AV breaks aggro before the Taunt is recharged. I’ve gone back and slotted my Tank with Recharge and that seemed to do the Trick. 
 

My post still stands as a suggestion for the OP.

Base duration for Taunt (both tanks and brutes) is 41 seconds. Base recharge is 10 seconds. Purple Patch would cut the duration in half, but would still be twice the recharge. Your problem with Recluse is that he is immune to Taunt:

+10000% Resistance (Taunt) (self only) on activate until caster defeated
-10000% Taunt (self only) on activate until caster defeated

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=v_arachnos.lord_recluse.resistance&at=boss_archvillain

[lemming]

5 hours ago, JasperStone said:

Well ...

if your character is the right height

and you take kick...

 

[tidge]

FTR: I six-slot Taunt (with Mocking Beratement).

 

I haven't noticed any issues at all with Taunt, Gauntlet, or Punchvoke. I tend to build to maximize ToHit, because if I want to build and keep aggro passive effects and an occasional Taunt isn't enough.

 

My non-tanks can strip aggro from a tanker or brute that is only relying on an aura. Several of my characters go out of their way to do this, just because.

 

There continues to be (since, forever) an AI issue when a critter decides to run, there is nothing short of an immobilize or hold that will stop it.

Edited March 1, 2023 by tidge

[Gulbasaur]

On 2/28/2023 at 8:17 AM, twozerofoxtrot said:

I didn't know this about SR, is it documented why this is the case somewhere?

From memory, the number of different debuffs you apply factors into your aggro generation. That's one of the reasons why debuff-heavy support sets generate so much aggro.

 

Ice throws out a lot of different types of debuffs, so it generates higher threat.

 

[Arc-Mage]

4 hours ago, Uun said:

Base duration for Taunt (both tanks and brutes) is 41 seconds. Base recharge is 10 seconds. Purple Patch would cut the duration in half, but would still be twice the recharge. Your problem with Recluse is that he is immune to Taunt:

+10000% Resistance (Taunt) (self only) on activate until caster defeated
-10000% Taunt (self only) on activate until caster defeated

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=v_arachnos.lord_recluse.resistance&at=boss_archvillain

Fascinating. So what is it if it not Taunt that causes Recluse to follow a Tank up a pole and stay there, as he tries to reach the Tank who is generally out of Range?

[ZemX]

1 minute ago, Arc-Mage said:

Fascinating. So what is it if it not Taunt that causes Recluse to follow a Tank up a pole and stay there, as he tries to reach the Tank who is generally out of Range?

 

Threat.  Taunt is just another way to build Threat.  Being at the top of a given NPC's threat list is what keeps them on a Tanker (or anybody).

 

You accumulate threat by "doing stuff" to an enemy.  Even without doing any damage, Taunt by itself generates some threat.  Likely very little given Recluse's resistance to it, but probably not actually zero.  It nobody else is doing anything to gain threat with him, it could be enough.

[Luminara]

18 minutes ago, Arc-Mage said:

So what is it if it not Taunt that causes Recluse to follow a Tank up a pole and stay there

 

Recluse is a cat.

 

[kelika2]

Stop relying on taunt and just attack more.  Scrapper pulled agro from attacking so much just like most other MMOs.

The days of just taunt on auto went away in like issue 3 or 4.  Its currently issue 27.something.

 

Its not that Taunt is broken, its just antiquated.

[Arc-Mage]

14 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

Stop relying on taunt and just attack more.

This made me lol. If I had to guess I’d bet 2/3 of Tanks don’t even take the Taunt power. 

[ZemX]

58 minutes ago, Arc-Mage said:

This made me lol. If I had to guess I’d bet 2/3 of Tanks don’t even take the Taunt power. 

 

Then they are missing the point of it.  It's not primarily for holding aggro in melee.  That's what punch-voke and taunt auras are for.   Taunt (the power) is for grabbing aggro from range.  That's the whole reason it has a built-in -range debuff.  You are holding down ten enemies in a group and see a couple on the outskirts of the battle making a beeline for the Blaster?  Taunt.  Auto-hit.  70ft range.  22.5ft radius sphere.  5 targets.  Extremely effective even with no additional slotting.

 

It's not that you can't tank without it.  It's just easier with it.