Knock back option suggestion

[CompSciNerd]

34 minutes ago, Rudra said:

The pushback is the OP wants the benefit of an enhancement without having to slot it. So if the request is for an enhancement's benefit without having to slot it, then the price should be an enhancement. Ergo, -42.4% damage penalty. The effects of a single level 50 IO damage enhancement. The flexibility to use or not use knockback is already available in the multiple builds every character gets and the availability of knockback to knockdown enhancements. Make one build with the knockback to knockdown enhancements and another build without them. Voila. Now you have the flexibility to use or not use knockback as you see fit.

 

With respect, that not true at all.  Not in the least.

 

I am glad they added an enhancement that gives people options for their build...  I would say that about any enhancement, or any set.  There wasn't always an enhancement for this.  Not for a long time.  And the fact that they tackled this issue at all tells us two things:

1) There is an issue, at least for some people.  People asked for something (that how it works).  And they got this as a solution.

2) The problem still exists or people would have stopped talking about it.  So there is an implementation problem.

 

IMHO: The solution for these powers should never have been adding in an enhancement to address this issue at all.  That was a band-aid fix.  And as you can see, there nothing so permanent as a band-aid fix.  There should have some sort of global solution to the problem from the start.  I'm glad it's there.  It is one way to do it.  It gives more options... But it should not have been the first goto for adding this functionality.

 

I want to be clear here to.  I don't want to misunderstand the term "fix" ether because KB isn't broken.  Those powers are performing exactly as advertised and the people that like it that way, more power to you.  And I count myself among them on occasion.  When I use the term "fix" I mean in terms of how it was implemented.  We are several more years down the road now, with experience.  Keep the system we have, but improve it.  I think it can be done better.  This is how we move ahead.

 

And I haven't looked at the code, I know it's available, but I don't see this as a major code change ether.  Not earth shaking.

[Rudra]

31 minutes ago, CompSciNerd said:

The problem still exists or people would have stopped talking about it.  So there is an implementation problem.

I wholeheartedly disagree. The problem is a perceptual one or a play style one. I've been on full teams with KB heavy characters before, specifically Energy Blast, and there were no complaints because of how the Energy Blast player leveraged his/her character's abilities to work with the team. (Edit: Or because the Energy Blast player killed the KB'ed target(s) before the melees had to chase it down.) I've been on small teams where the moment someone realizes a character is a KB character, particularly Energy Blast, they very vocally and adamantly demand the KB player use KB2KD procs or leave the team. And if the vocal individual is the leader? Too often the KB player isn't even given the choice, let alone the opportunity to demonstrate how KB can be used, and is just booted. That is not an implementation problem. Nor is it a "KB is bad" problem.

 

KB is one of those game mechanics that can be tricky to fully master. It is also one where vocal players won't even grant opportunities to see it can actually benefit the team. Yes, poor use of KB is detrimental to teams, but so is poor use of other game mechanics like immobilization. You think players can't "accidentally" immobilize targets outside of the other players' effect radii? Keeping the already scattered mobs scattered without stopping them from attacking? Which still forces those players that complain about KB to have to chase down the scattered mobs. Or how about spamming fear effects to make the mobs the Tanker is managing just up and scatter out of his/her/its reach? If trolls want to troll a team and make it look like "an honest mistake", they don't need KB to do so. However, players are typically willing to cut those other players slack "because they are obviously a noob and just need to learn how to use their abilities right". If a player doesn't know how to leverage a set's benefits, they can play poorly regardless of what secondary effects, or even primary effects in some cases, their character uses.

 

31 minutes ago, CompSciNerd said:

 

With respect, that not true at all.  Not in the least.

 

I want to be clear here to.  I don't want to misunderstand the term "fix" ether because KB isn't broken.  Those powers are performing exactly as advertised and the people that like it that way, more power to you.  And I count myself among them on occasion.  When I use the term "fix" I mean in terms of how it was implemented.  We are several more years down the road now, with experience.  Keep the system we have, but improve it.  I think it can be done better.  This is how we move ahead.

 

And I haven't looked at the code, I know it's available, but I don't see this as a major code change ether.  Not earth shaking.

The OP you proposed is not a fix. It is a cheat trying to get an enhancement's benefit without having to get and use the enhancement so you can devote that enhancement slot to something you deem 'better', or it is a cop out to the demands of players that won't even consider the benefits of KB, or worse, both. The first possibility is the desire to play ever more powerful characters in a game that already can't deal with all the power creep it has requiring the devs to come up with a whole new set of difficulties to try to compensate. The second possibility is just surrendering to others' demands that you play the way they want rather than the way you want. The third possibility is a surrender that seeks to eke out even more power as compensation.

 

Edit: And no, I am not against having more options in the game. What I am against in this thread is trying to get a benefit without having to use what grants that benefit. No free procs. If you want the effect of an enhancement, then slot the enhancement. And for those getting ready to argue that set bonuses grant you enhancement bonuses without having to slot an enhancement for it? You're wrong. You have to slot 2-6 enhancements from a pre-defined set to get those benefits.

Edited March 7, 2023 by Rudra

[TheZag]

Neither side of this discussion will be able to convince the other because they look at knockback and the KB>KD enhancement in two different ways.

 

Those on the KB>KD is a slot tax side feel that knockback is generally a bad thing that scatters mobs and slows kill times.  An enhancement slot must be spent to fix the power and is then considered a tax since that slot could have been used for something else to make their character more powerful.

 

Those on the KB>KD is not a slot tax side usually consider knockback helpful when used with a purpose and to reposition mobs to increase kill times or player survivability.  They usually feel the KB>KD enhancement further improves kill speed by turning knockback into a reliable control ability that prevents enemies from attacking while they spend time to stand back up.  These players dont feel the enhancement is a tax because they see something being gained from it.

 

There is a kill time sheet somewhere on the forum (I cant find it. Likely buried in another knockback topic) that compared knockback and knockdown map clear times to see if the stats lost from slotting the KB>KD enhancement had much impact on clear times.  They found that clear times decreased (faster clears)  when using the KB>KD enhancement.  This supports the belief that knockback results in slower kill speeds but is in opposition to the thought that it is a 'slot tax' since players became more powerful when using it even through the loss of other stats and set bonuses.

 

This is also why knockback to knockdown probably wont become automatic - it will make players more powerful like the current enhancement already does and then allow them to use another enhancement in addition to it.  

 

[Zeraphia]

6 minutes ago, Rudra said:

KB is one of those game mechanics that can be tricky to fully master. It is also one where vocal players won't even grant opportunities to see it can actually benefit the team. Yes, poor use of KB is detrimental to teams, but so is poor use of other game mechanics like immobilization. You think players can't "accidentally" immobilize targets outside of the other players' effect radii? Keeping the already scattered mobs scattered without stopping them from attacking? Which still forces those players that complain about KB to have to chase down the scattered mobs. Or how about spamming fear effects to make the mobs the Tanker is managing just up and scatter out of his/her/its reach? If trolls want to troll a team and make it look like "an honest mistake", they don't need KB to do so. However, players are typically willing to cut those other players slack "because they are obviously a noob and just need to learn how to use their abilities right". If a player doesn't know how to leverage a set's benefits, they can play poorly regardless of what secondary effects, or even primary effects in some cases, their character uses.

I think the argument you have is flawed only in the sense that immobilizing targets doesn't cause as much disruption and outright trolling nor is it available as opportunistically to go wrong as KB is. That's why people do not advocate for immobilizes to be "fixed" or view it as a minor problem that only happens occasionally. These effects either aim to reduce enemy movement or stop it entirely, fear is rather annoying but is considerably better to deal with when used improperly and well, frankly, a lot rarer and easier to manage than your entire powerset consisting of only fear secondary effects. 

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, TheZag said:

Neither side of this discussion will be able to convince the other because they look at knockback and the KB>KD enhancement in two different ways.

 

Those on the KB>KD is a slot tax side feel that knockback is generally a bad thing that scatters mobs and slows kill times.  An enhancement slot must be spent to fix the power and is then considered a tax since that slot could have been used for something else to make their character more powerful.

 

Those on the KB>KD is not a slot tax side usually consider knockback helpful when used with a purpose and to reposition mobs to increase kill times or player survivability.  They usually feel the KB>KD enhancement further improves kill speed by turning knockback into a reliable control ability that prevents enemies from attacking while they spend time to stand back up.  These players dont feel the enhancement is a tax because they see something being gained from it.

 

There is a kill time sheet somewhere on the forum (I cant find it. Likely buried in another knockback topic) that compared knockback and knockdown map clear times to see if the stats lost from slotting the KB>KD enhancement had much impact on clear times.  They found that clear times decreased (faster clears)  when using the KB>KD enhancement.  This supports the belief that knockback results in slower kill speeds but is in opposition to the thought that it is a 'slot tax' since players became more powerful when using it even through the loss of other stats and set bonuses.

 

This is also why knockback to knockdown probably wont become automatic - it will make players more powerful like the current enhancement already does and then allow them to use another enhancement in addition to it.  

 

Facts.

[UltraAlt]

4 hours ago, FupDup said:

Ironically, the only way I figured out to survive against them in early levels was to always start fights with the Nemesis Staff (knockback) so they couldn't attack for a few seconds. Then throw everything at them to try to prevent them from getting back up. 

 

What noterity are you playing at?

And what level is this occurring at?

Did you have an option and pick a power that will give you defense against them when you could first pick it? Was it slotted?

 

I leveled up as a Peacebringer with a friend playing a Warshade. 

I seriously don't remember having this issue.

We did target the voids, quantums, etc. first, but they seemed to be nerf to the extent that we really didn't even need to do that.

[Rudra]

12 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

I think the argument you have is flawed only in the sense that immobilizing targets doesn't cause as much disruption and outright trolling nor is it available as opportunistically to go wrong as KB is. That's why people do not advocate for immobilizes to be "fixed" or view it as a minor problem that only happens occasionally. These effects either aim to reduce enemy movement or stop it entirely, fear is rather annoying but is considerably better to deal with when used improperly and well, frankly, a lot rarer and easier to manage than your entire powerset consisting of only fear secondary effects. 

I concede that the obvious effects are lesser than poorly used KB and at least in the case of immob'ed targets, simpler to deal with. Feared mobs just up and running away however doesn't require a power with a set fear effect. Damage patches and debuff patches or debuff toggles work almost equally well for that since mob flee mechanics are so seriously broken. I also concede that yes, the fear and immobs are more situational, both in application and number of powers that utilize such effects, than sets that have KB in all their attack powers and can be poorly used. My point that a troll is going to troll, an inexperienced player can be as detrimental to a team regardless of what game mechanics their power set uses, and that teams are surprisingly more willing to cut slack for even a troll trolling their missions if (s)he claims ignorance rather than work with a KB character still stands though.

Edited March 7, 2023 by Rudra
Edited to correct "ignorance".

[Zeraphia]

5 minutes ago, TheZag said:

There is a kill time sheet somewhere on the forum (I cant find it. Likely buried in another knockback topic) that compared knockback and knockdown map clear times to see if the stats lost from slotting the KB>KD enhancement had much impact on clear times.  They found that clear times decreased (faster clears)  when using the KB>KD enhancement.  This supports the belief that knockback results in slower kill speeds but is in opposition to the thought that it is a 'slot tax' since players became more powerful when using it even through the loss of other stats and set bonuses.

This is why I have never said KB->KD isn't a sincere advantage. I've always argued on the opposite, that KB is actually just that disadvantageous, that it puts the set far behind others, and if one were to numerically look at the real time tests that would be the conclusion drawn, especially when once considered adding in Fire Manipulation as a secondary into that equation. One can argue that Fire Manipulation is just an outlier, which is a fair argument, but even with a set such as Electric Manipulation which would boost the set in many ways, still does not pair well with KB. As insane as this may be to some, I actually found that DPS-wise, even though initially it may not appear so, Energy Blast was so bad it was comparable or worse than Assault Rifle. Though people disagreed with that conclusion, and the reason was always because of the knockback stipulation on all of its powers.

[FupDup]

18 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

 

What noterity are you playing at?

And what level is this occurring at?

Did you have an option and pick a power that will give you defense against them when you could first pick it? Was it slotted?

 

I leveled up as a Peacebringer with a friend playing a Warshade. 

I seriously don't remember having this issue.

We did target the voids, quantums, etc. first, but they seemed to be nerf to the extent that we really didn't even need to do that.

My anecdote was from playing a Peacebringer solo a few years ago at base difficulty (+0x1), leveling the slow way without financial support from alts. At low levels the only defensive power you've got to protect against them is the energy/negative toggle shield, which isn't available until level 14 these days (I played this toon before the update that let you pick powers earlier so I think I had to wait until even later to get it). I also think that the heal power wasn't available until a bit later than it is now (currently level 4). It's been a while so the exact level brackets are a bit fuzzy in my memory. My only enhancements at such low levels would've been the P2W freebies in attack powers plus some DO's in non-attack powers. 

 

All I know is that Void Seekers would body me hard if I couldn't keep them knocked down/back. 

 

Edited March 7, 2023 by FupDup
Corrected some stuffs

[UltraAlt]

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

I think we had this discussion before.

 

Probably did. I'm getting older and some stuff isn't retained the way it used to be.

 

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

The first and last time I tried a Kheldian was shortly after they were introduced.

 

Yeah, back then, yeah. If you were going to be a Kheldian back then  you had to be on a good-sized team so you had back-up, but then good-sized teams didn't always want you to join because the Kheldian-stink would still be on the team after you quit. I ran into many teams where a Kheldian had been involved that broke up and reformed as soon as the Kheldian left the team.

 

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

I simply refuse to at this time.

 

I don't blame you.

I was in a group where I played a Peacebringer and the other player player played a Warshade and they gave up on it around the time we reached level 40. They will never play another Kheldian again.

I didn't mind myself. I'll get back around to playing them again at some point in my alt-jumping journies.

 

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

There is a plethora of character concepts and builds for me to try before I even think about dealing with a Kheldian ever again.

 

Honestly, I only made that one because the other player wanted to try out playing the Kheldians.

I'll never play a VETA on Homecoming. I have no interest in them.

[CompSciNerd]

18 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I wholeheartedly disagree. The problem is a perceptual one or a play style one. I've been on full teams with KB heavy characters before, specifically Energy Blast, and there were no complaints because of how the Energy Blast player leveraged his/her character's abilities to work with the team. (Edit: Or because the Energy Blast player killed the KB'ed target(s) before the melees had to chase it down.) I've been on small teams where the moment someone realizes a character is a KB character, particularly Energy Blast, they very vocally and adamantly demand the KB player use KB2KD procs or leave the team. And if the vocal individual is the leader? Too often the KB player isn't even given the choice, let alone the opportunity to demonstrate how KB can be used, and is just booted. That is not an implementation problem. Nor is it a "KB is bad" problem.

 

KB is one of those game mechanics that can be tricky to fully master. It is also one where vocal players won't even grant opportunities to see it can actually benefit the team. Yes, poor use of KB is detrimental to teams, but so is poor use of other game mechanics like immobilization. You think players can't "accidentally" immobilize targets outside of the other players' effect radii? Keeping the already scattered mobs scattered without stopping them from attacking? Which still forces those players that complain about KB to have to chase down the scattered mobs. Or how about spamming fear effects to make the mobs the Tanker is managing just up and scatter out of his/her/its reach? If trolls want to troll a team and make it look like "an honest mistake", they don't need KB to do so. However, players are typically willing to cut those other players slack "because they are obviously a noob and just need to learn how to use their abilities right". If a player doesn't know how to leverage a set's benefits, they can play poorly regardless of what secondary effects, or even primary effects in some cases, their character uses.

 

The OP you proposed is not a fix. It is a cheat trying to get an enhancement's benefit without having to get and use the enhancement so you can devote that enhancement slot to something you deem 'better', or it is a cop out to the demands of players that won't even consider the benefits of KB, or worse, both. The first possibility is the desire to play ever more powerful characters in a game that already can't deal with all the power creep it has requiring the devs to come up with a whole new set of difficulties to try to compensate. The second possibility is just surrendering to others' demands that you play the way they want rather than the way you want. The third possibility is a surrender that seeks to eke out even more power as compensation.

 

Edit: And no, I am not against having more options in the game. What I am against in this thread is trying to get a benefit without having to use what grants that benefit. No free procs. If you want the effect of an enhancement, then slot the enhancement. And for those getting ready to argue that set bonuses grant you enhancement bonuses without having to slot an enhancement for it? You're wrong. You have to slot 2-6 enhancements from a pre-defined set to get those benefits.

 

Well I respect the fact you disagree.

 

I am also glad we agree on more options being available to the player.

 

I am just not thinking of this the same way.  I think this was a power set design problem that they would have had no way of knowing about at the time they issued it.  Not their fault.  Now we can plus up and add to the power sets out there, if they choose.  I'm saying its fine that we have the enhancements.  There are better ways to handle it now.

 

I recognize this work for your play style.  That is awesome.  I don't think it is fair to characterize it as a perceived problem if people are actually having issues or would like it differently.  The solution is not to teach people to play like you want.  You may very well have good pointers to show people.  If you have time to do it politely, in game, when chaos is going on all around.  And I'm sure there is a peer pressure component as well.  But this way the player can still choose how to play their toon.

 

I am framing this as if you are a dev and you design a blaster power set that does X damage and has some secondary side effect. The secondary works well for some players and for others they would like a tweak.  This is not a cheat.  It is a design decision.  You could make a whole new power sets with a whole new secondary for every set out there that behaves this way or..., non-destructively add functionality to the power sets everyone is using now.   Everyone wins.  I'm just suggesting a global option.

 

Calling it a secondary effect is really misleading.  That effect does a lot of things for the player.  Very often defines your character in terms of RP.  In terms of play style.  So if you want a certain theme you should have access to it from the start.  Make the effect part of the powerset somehow in terms how you are playing you character.  All it usually profound enough that it impacts the theme of your toon and the backstory of your character.  A toggle you get at the p2w is fine.

 

You realize that they started introducing powersets that behaved exactly the way the people here are describing?  The pistols set.  Option 1:  Shoot them plain.  Options 2, 3, 4: toggle between three other side effects...  The mechanic is already established and is not considered a cheat.  If someone wanted to update the pistols and add a 5th... Maybe electric... I would be like Cool...  And I wouldn't think it broke anything.  It is a power set design issue.

 

One person here suggested knock ups.  I think that is Hi-larious.  Maybe another global option.  I'm easy.

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, CompSciNerd said:

You realize that they started introducing powersets that behaved exactly the way the people here are describing?  The pistols set.  Option 1:  Shoot them plain.  Options 2, 3, 4: toggle between three other side effects...  The mechanic is already established and is not considered a cheat.  If someone wanted to update the pistols and add a 5th... Maybe electric... I would be like Cool...  And I wouldn't think it broke anything.  It is a power set design issue.

 

One person here suggested knock ups.  I think that is Hi-larious.  Maybe another global option.  I'm easy.

You're correct, Dual Pistols does have both KB and KD, and using the swap ammo power lets you change that to toxic damage (from smash/lethal) with minor damage debuff on target, fire damage with DoT, or cold damage with slow effect. How it does that is by use of a power you must select and then toggle to do so. Which takes the place of the more ubiquitious Aim power other Blaster sets get in some form. So you are giving up a commonly taken power to get that ability. So instead of an "enhancement tax" as some players like to describe SA or OF, you have a "power tax". So even with that reference provided, I am still opposed to the OP. You want a new energy blasting power set that works more like Dual Pistols? Propose the set. You want to take Energy Blast or any other KB power set and not have KB, but have KD instead? Slot the proc. You don't want the proc to be a "tax"? Slot the set in part or whole. And using KU instead of KD is the same thing. No. I am opposed to that. If you want Energy Blast or any other KB set to do KU instead of KB? Ask for an enhancement set that does that.

[biostem]

I think a better option would be to introduce a set that is basically energy blast but with a different secondary effect.  Alternatively, maybe we could get another option or 2 to convert KB->KD - either as another IO set, an incarnate like others mentioned, or perhaps some sort of "power transformation" pool that provides different effects to your other powers, one among them being to convert KB->KD.

[JasperStone]

Posting again.

Because narrow-minded people may have me on ignore.

Below is the info on Psi tornado on my Fire/Kin

 

Please note the slotting, yup Chance for KnockDown

 

NOW go back and look at the bottom part of the image where it states:

50 % of KNOCKUP

 

Something this power does NOT do.

 

This was a dropped recipe I crafted and and slotted to PERMANENTLY change the aspect of the power.

and STILL have all six slots.

[Luminara]

Summation of the objections to a KB->KD toggle from other threads:
 

1. The existence of such an option could result in mandated use by teammates/leaders, forcing players to either accept the dictates of others ("Play my way or GTFO"), or eschew teaming.  If this option ceases to be optional, or leads to players being ostracized if they choose not to exercise that option, it would be detrimental to the game for many players, and give abusive players a strong foothold from which to begin building a larger community (in other words, the assholes might take over).
2. Knock is control, as effective as Holds when used well.  Powers with high KB, or sets with several powers which cause KB, are set to knock enemies back specifically so players can't use them as ghetto control right out of the box.  If the player has to pursue the enemy after knocking it back, it's more balanced.  KB->KD enhancements are allowed specifically because they require an investment, a slot which the player is dedicating to not Damage, or Endurance Reduction, or Recharge Reduction, or Accuracy, or some other attribute, thus maintaining a degree of balance across the entire build.  Removing that investment cost for the control offered by Knock would require a subsequent review and rebalance of every power and set affected.
3. There is no granularity with a toggle.  If a player wants certain powers to KB and others to KD, a toggle denies him/her that option.  Some players need at least one strong KB power to maintain distance from enemies.  Others enjoy having at least one power with strong KB simply for the entertainment value.  With a toggled KB->KD setting, it's all or nothing, which would leave these players with fewer options than they had without the toggle.
4. There are already ways to mitigate KB.  Being above an enemy when a KB power is used causes that enemy to be knocked downward, and that can be accomplished via Combat Jumping, Hover, Fly, Teleport, Mystic Flight, Combat Teleport, Speed of Sound's Jaunt, Mystic Flight's Translocation, jet packs, or even Hurdle, a power everyone is given for free.  Powers with KB can also be slotted with KB->KD enhancements.  Numerous single-target and AoE Immobilization powers prevent all Knock, as well as some single-target powers, such as Gravity Distortion and Cryo Freeze Ray.  Walls are remarkably easy to find in the game, and prevent enemies from travelling any distance, regardless of the magnitude of the KB.
5. Every set is designed with some kind of secondary effect to specialize it.  Some have multiple secondary effects, others are more focused.  KB doesn't exist simply to add flair or fulfill a thematic role in sets, it's also a form of damage mitigation, similar to Dark's -ToHit, and KB is more effective mitigation than KD.  The longer an enemy is in the air or bouncing backwards along the ground, the longer the ragdoll effect lasts, the greater the damage mitigation provided by KB.  Globally reducing KB in these sets would also globally reduce the amount of mitigation provided per power, as an enemy which is knocked down is able to return to standing animation more quickly, and sometimes ignores subsequent KD effects until it's on its feet again.
6. Creating and implementing a KB->KD toggle for a scant few sets would require developer investment and time, and compared to projects with wider appeal and/or more benefit for a larger number of players, it may not be something they consider to be the best use of that time and investment of their resources., 
7. No-one, in the entire history of the game, has ever been forced to play a character with heavy KB.  There are other sets, and with power customization, anyone can play a blasty pew pew character which looks like it's shooting pure energy but doesn't knock anything around.  Nor has anyone ever had a gun held to his/her head and given no choice but to remain on a team with someone who uses KB poorly or maliciously.  You don't have to play a KB heavy set, or team with KB users, if it bothers you that much.
8. KB isn't that bad.  People losing their shit because an enemy was knocked away from them and they were forced to press W for 0.5 second, or having to move forward a few feet on your own character, isn't the end of the world.  All life as we know it will not stop instantaneously, nor will every molecule in your body explode at the speed of light, if the W key is touched.

 

For more detailed breakdowns and arguments, type "KB toggle" into the search box (top right of the page) and review the previous discussions.

Edited March 8, 2023 by Luminara
BSOD ate the end of a couple of lines

[Paradox Fate]

With #1 I can ague that it's usually 'Good etiquette' in groups that you keep usage of heavy KB and repel powers at a minimum, unless the group agrees otherwise.

 

#2's argument isn't viable when there is a IO around that enhances Damage as well as having a KB->KD modifier already. One could argue that set bonuses are something you should wager vs KB->KD IO's, but when using purple it's just not worth slotting them when you need the 6-pc bonuses to reach perma/softcap.

[Luminara]

9 minutes ago, JasperStone said:

NOW go back and look at the bottom part of the image where it states:

50 % of KNOCKUP

 

Something this power does NOT do.

 

Yes, it does.  Psi Tornado has always done KU.

 

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=epic.psionic_mastery.psionic_tornado&at=controller <- bottom entry

 

11 minutes ago, JasperStone said:

This was a dropped recipe I crafted

 

Neither Winter enhancements nor Overwhelming Force enhancements are crafted.  They only exist as attuned enhancements.  There aren't even any recipes for them in the database.

[Rudra]

36 minutes ago, JasperStone said:

Posting again.

Because narrow-minded people may have me on ignore.

Below is the info on Psi tornado on my Fire/Kin

 

Please note the slotting, yup Chance for KnockDown

 

NOW go back and look at the bottom part of the image where it states:

50 % of KNOCKUP

 

Something this power does NOT do.

 

This was a dropped recipe I crafted and and slotted to PERMANENTLY change the aspect of the power.

and STILL have all six slots.

Psionic Tornado:

50% chance

Mag +1.4 Knockup (all affected targets)

 

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=blaster_ranged.psychic_blast.psionic_tornado&at=blaster

Try again.

 

Edit: Sorry, @Luminara. Didn't see your response before posting mine.

 

Edit again: And until I see the recipe that lets a player craft something that changes their powers (and is not a respec) without having to be slotted in an enhancement slot, I call BS on your claim about having a crafted recipe that permanently affects a power without being slotted.

Edited March 7, 2023 by Rudra

[JasperStone]

40 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

Yes, it does.  Psi Tornado has always done KU.

 

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=epic.psionic_mastery.psionic_tornado&at=controller <- bottom entry

 

 

Neither Winter enhancements nor Overwhelming Force enhancements are crafted.  They only exist as attuned enhancements.  There aren't even any recipes for them in the database.

I was saying I remember crafting something and putting it there.

But oh while.

Thank you for calling me on my stupidity.

 

Never said I crafted the other two sets.

 

But....stupid me is stupid me.

 

[SwitchFade]

Op...

 

Sorry, I must no vote .

 

W key is your friend.

[aethereal]

17 hours ago, Wavicle said:

 

Someone should correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you could only have up to 5 Sudden Acceleration and 1 Overwhelming Force for a total of 6?

You can have any number of Sudden Accelerations.  The rule of five is about set bonuses.  If you were slotting 6 full sets of Sudden Acceleration, you'd only get five sets of set bonuses.  But you can use the KB>KD any number of times.

[Zeraphia]

2 hours ago, Luminara said:

Summation of the objections to a KB->KD toggle from other threads:
 

1. The existence of such an option could result in mandated use by teammates/leaders, forcing players to either accept the dictates of others ("Play my way or GTFO"), or eschew teaming.  If this option ceases to be optional, or leads to players being ostracized if they choose not to exercise that option, it would be detrimental to the game for many players, and give abusive players a strong foothold from which to begin building a larger community (in other words, the assholes might take over).
2. Knock is control, as effective as Holds when used well.  Powers with high KB, or sets with several powers which cause KB, are set to knock enemies back specifically so players can't use them as ghetto control right out of the box.  If the player has to pursue the enemy after knocking it back, it's more balanced.  KB->KD enhancements are allowed specifically because they require an investment, a slot which the player is dedicating to not Damage, or Endurance Reduction, or Recharge Reduction, or Accuracy, or some other attribute, thus maintaining a degree of balance across the entire build.  Removing that investment cost for the control offered by Knock would require a subsequent review and rebalance of every power and set affected.
3. There is no granularity with a toggle.  If a player wants certain powers to KB and others to KD, a toggle denies him/her that option.  Some players need at least one strong KB power to maintain distance from enemies.  Others enjoy having at least one power with strong KB simply for the entertainment value.  With a toggled KB->KD setting, it's all or nothing, which would leave these players with fewer options than they had without the toggle.
4. There are already ways to mitigate KB.  Being above an enemy when a KB power is used causes that enemy to be knocked downward, and that can be accomplished via Combat Jumping, Hover, Fly, Teleport, Mystic Flight, Combat Teleport, Speed of Sound's Jaunt, Mystic Flight's Translocation, jet packs, or even Hurdle, a power everyone is given for free.  Powers with KB can also be slotted with KB->KD enhancements.  Numerous single-target and AoE Immobilization powers prevent all Knock, as well as some single-target powers, such as Gravity Distortion and Cryo Freeze Ray.  Walls are remarkably easy to find in the game, and prevent enemies from travelling any distance, regardless of the magnitude of the KB.
5. Every set is designed with some kind of secondary effect to specialize it.  Some have multiple secondary effects, others are more focused.  KB doesn't exist simply to add flair or fulfill a thematic role in sets, it's also a form of damage mitigation, similar to Dark's -ToHit, and KB is more effective mitigation than KD.  The longer an enemy is in the air or bouncing backwards along the ground, the longer the ragdoll effect lasts, the greater the damage mitigation provided by KB.  Globally reducing KB in these sets would also globally reduce the amount of mitigation provided per power, as an enemy which is knocked down is able to return to standing animation more quickly, and sometimes ignores subsequent KD effects until it's on its feet again.
6. Creating and implementing a KB->KD toggle for a scant few sets would require developer investment and time, and compared to projects with wider appeal and/or more benefit for a larger number of players, 
7. No-one, in the entire history of the game, has ever been forced to play a character with heavy KB.  There are other sets, and with power customization, anyone can play a blasty pew pew character which looks like it's shooting pure energy but doesn't knock anything around.  Nor has anyone ever had a gun held to his/her head and given no choice but to remain on a team with someone who uses KB poorly or maliciously.  You don't have to play a KB heavy set, or team with KB users, if it bothers you that much.
8. KB isn't that bad.  People losing their shit because an enemy was knocked away from them and they were forced to press W for 0.5 second, or having to move forward a few feet on your own character, isn't the end of the world.  All life as we know it will not stop instantaneously, nor will every molecule in your body explode at the speed of light, if the W key is touched.

For more detailed breakdowns and arguments, type "KB toggle" into the search box (top right of the page) and review the previous discussions.

1. This argument is a bit hmm... pretentious? Sorry, but if one is playing in a way that is obviously such a problem that someone else has to tell them "please turn that off it's preventing the group from doing x, y, z," why is it honestly seen as a bad thing for that player to have to actually do something beneficial for a group via not doing something disruptive? It's honestly a bit immature to expect people to cater to their wants and desires in fear of the "assholes taking over" and "not letting me have fun with my character when grouped with other people who don't want my character!" Simply put, if one wants to play these combinations so badly, why don't they just play by themselves if they refuse to actually be willing to accomplish goals and complete objectives in an efficient manner, or simply make another character that is also fun (CoH has endless AT combinations, after all)? Sorry, that argument never passed the smell test to me. 
    
2. I actually grant you, this section is true, but... it's honestly missing quite a lot of established context. Like the fact that similar sets and powers already do exist and are not significant overperformers and thus there's no expectation realistically that any of these sets would suffer or gain too greatly to overthrow the current meta by any means. Thunderspy also well quite frankly did this and it seems to be an overall net positive. Personally, not the biggest fan of Thunderspy but it's worth noting. 
    
3. There are workarounds for this issue, perhaps as the band-aid solution was to just give a bunch of the Sudden Acceleration KB->KD IO which neuters your character's endurance/damage/recovery/accuracy/etc. to make some powers function and not rampantly out of control chaotic... why doesn't the opposite persist? Why not make an IO that turns KD->KB if one so badly desires to pick and choose which powers they want to stay KB? Or other various methods to retain the desired KB effect through the KD toggle, or better yet... just understand that when choosing KD one may experience some performance loss and gain in some areas the same way they would with KB, or choosing any set in general? Also, we already have a similar KD powerset in the form of Seismic Blast, which comparing DPA/powers, is literally identical except one does KB and the other does KD. I don't see this "serious rebalancing" that the post is discussing needing. 
    
4. There's still many more scenarios where that's just too inconvenient on a consistent basis to actually work in practice. Way too often are mobs just gathered in a location that does not have easily adjacent walls, flying is already demonstrably slower than just running, you probably are not going to keep up with many groups to properly KB in that way very often, especially 50 and above content. 
    
5. What you said is true but it's pretty clear KB is not in the same general scope as other secondary effects in that its effect is far more controversial and less desirable, and also has lots of potential to grief other players. 
    
6. Golden rule on the Suggestions and Feedbacks forum is not to start the "developers just don't bother wasting your time with this other poster's suggestion." Let the developers decide for themselves. If it's a pretty clear hot topic and has been mentioned several times with pretty stern emotions on both sides, it's probably a topic worth addressing. 
    
7. This one is just a bit odd given what was said in #1. The advocacy for "don't let the assholes take over and let me play my way" and disallowing options for players to play the set in a way that is objectively better numerically without gimping their character to the point that their performance is so far down the drain that arguably one of the worst sets in the game typically will out-perform it. Maybe let people play how they want to play and understand their pros and cons going either way with KB or KD? The option would theoretically be there to play it however you choose, and if you cannot handle what other people think then I don't know what to tell you. 

 

Look, I got your arguments at one point in time and accepted them on another board. That was before Seismic Blast came out and decided to be the literal equivalent of what EB would be if it was just KB->KD without having to spend 8 KB->KD's to get there. 

Edited March 8, 2023 by Zeraphia

[UltraAlt]

4 hours ago, FupDup said:

My anecdote was from playing a Peacebringer solo a few years ago at base difficulty (+0x1), leveling the slow way without financial support from alts. At low levels the only defensive power you've got to protect against them is the energy/negative toggle shield, which isn't available until level 14 these days (I played this toon before the update that let you pick powers earlier so I think I had to wait until even later to get it). I also think that the heal power wasn't available until a bit later than it is now (currently level 4). It's been a while so the exact level brackets are a bit fuzzy in my memory. My only enhancements at such low levels would've been the P2W freebies in attack powers plus some DO's in non-attack powers. 

 

All I know is that Void Seekers would body me hard if I couldn't keep them knocked down/back. 

 

It sounds like you were soloing. I that correct?

I know that there are a good number of players that only solo at this point.

 

I don't know if you care enough about your Kheldian to try to continue with them or not. I don't blame you if you don't want to bother with it.

My suggestion, if you really want to give Peacebringers a try, is to run with teammate(s) at least until you get the shield that will protect you from the void seekers, etc and to use Concealment>Stealth or Teleportation>Teleport Target in order to get a drop on opponents (dependent upon Peacebringer or Warshade, I think the teleportation pool may be blocked.)

 

We each play our own way, so I won't suggest that you get "financial support from alts".

When you run the DB, SOs drop for your Origin only. So this helps 2 fold, "free" SOs and a team to help you level. 

 

And I think you were doing the correct thing by trying to keep the Voids, etc knocked back/down and defeating them first.

[FupDup]

1 minute ago, UltraAlt said:

 

It sounds like you were soloing. I that correct?

I know that there are a good number of players that only solo at this point.

 

I don't know if you care enough about your Kheldian to try to continue with them or not. I don't blame you if you don't want to bother with it.

My suggestion, if you really want to give Peacebringers a try, is to run with teammate(s) at least until you get the shield that will protect you from the void seekers, etc and to use Concealment>Stealth or Teleportation>Teleport Target in order to get a drop on opponents (dependent upon Peacebringer or Warshade, I think the teleportation pool may be blocked.)

 

We each play our own way, so I won't suggest that you get "financial support from alts".

When you run the DB, SOs drop for your Origin only. So this helps 2 fold, "free" SOs and a team to help you level. 

 

And I think you were doing the correct thing by trying to keep the Voids, etc knocked back/down and defeating them first.

I got my PB to IO's and T4 incarnates a long time ago; the anecdotes were from years ago back when I played him. I don't touch him anymore (not just because of the Kheld-specific issues, but also because I tend to lose motivation to play a fully "completed" alt so I roll another and start the cycle anew). 

[Rudra]

30 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

1. This argument is a bit hmm... pretentious? Sorry, but if one is playing in a way that is obviously such a problem that someone else has to tell them "please turn that off it's preventing the group from doing x, y, z," why is it honestly seen as a bad thing for that player to have to actually do something beneficial for a group via not doing something disruptive? It's honestly a bit immature to expect people to cater to their wants and desires in fear of the "assholes taking over" and "not letting me have fun with my character when grouped with other people who don't want my character!" Simply put, if one wants to play these combinations so badly, why don't they just play by themselves if they refuse to actually be willing to accomplish goals and complete objectives in an efficient manner, or simply make another character that is also fun (CoH has endless AT combinations, after all)? Sorry, that argument never passed the smell test to me. 
    
2. I actually grant you, this section is true, but... it's honestly missing quite a lot of established context. Like the fact that similar sets and powers already do exist and are not significant overperformers and thus there's no expectation realistically that any of these sets would suffer or gain too greatly to overthrow the current meta by any means. Thunderspy also well quite frankly did this and it seems to be an overall net positive. Personally, not the biggest fan of Thunderspy but it's worth noting. 
    
3. There are workarounds for this issue, perhaps as the band-aid solution was to just give a bunch of the Sudden Acceleration KB->KD IO which neuters your character's endurance/damage/recovery/accuracy/etc. to make some powers function and not rampantly out of control chaotic... why doesn't the opposite persist? Why not make an IO that turns KD->KB if one so badly desires to pick and choose which powers they want to stay KB? Or other various methods to retain the desired KB effect through the KD toggle, or better yet... just understand that when choosing KD one may experience some performance loss and gain in some areas the same way they would with KB, or choosing any set in general? Also, we already have a similar KD powerset in the form of Seismic Blast, which comparing DPA/powers, is literally identical except one does KB and the other does KD. I don't see this "serious rebalancing" that the post is discussing needing. 
    
4. There's still many more scenarios where that's just too inconvenient on a consistent basis to actually work in practice. Way too often are mobs just gathered in a location that does not have easily adjacent walls, flying is already demonstrably slower than just running, you probably are not going to keep up with many groups to properly KB in that way very often, especially 50 and above content. 
    
5. What you said is true but it's pretty clear KB is not in the same general scope as other secondary effects in that its effect is far more controversial and less desirable, and also has lots of potential to grief other players. 
    
6. Golden rule on the Suggestions and Feedbacks forum is not to start the "developers just don't bother wasting your time with this other poster's suggestion." Let the developers decide for themselves. If it's a pretty clear hot topic and has been mentioned several times with pretty stern emotions on both sides, it's probably a topic worth addressing. 
    
7. This one is just a bit odd given what was said in #1. The advocacy for "don't let the assholes take over and let me play my way" and disallowing options for players to play the set in a way that is objectively better numerically without gimping their character to the point that their performance is so far down the drain that arguably one of the worst sets in the game typically will out-perform it. Maybe let people play how they want to play and understand their pros and cons going either way with KB or KD? The option would theoretically be there to play it however you choose, and if you cannot handle what other people think then I don't know what to tell you. 

 

Look, I got your arguments at one point in time and accepted them on another board. That was before Seismic Blast came out and decided to be the literal equivalent of what EB would be if it was just KB->KD without having to spend 8 KB->KD's to get there. 

Your argument is not as solid as you think it is. If Seismic Blast is basically Energy Blast except it uses KD instead of KB, then that is a reason to not change Energy Blast. We are trying to avoid power creep (being able to enjoy the benefit of an enhancement without having to slot it, in this case as a build toggle) and avoid power set homogenization. Unless the end goal is for all power sets to work the exact same? Just different flavors of the same thing so a single play style works with them all?

 

As for Thunderspy having already made this change? Don't care. Thunderspy can burn in a pit for all eternity for all I care. I do not like a lot of the changes Thunderspy made and would appreciate not having players trying to turn HC into Thunderspy. If what Thunderspy did is so great, then maybe play KD Energy Blast without KD procs on Thunderspy and play regular Energy Blast on Homecoming. That gives you the option to play both ways at will. (Not saying to go play on Thunderspy and go away, I'm saying if you can already play the way you like there, then play there with their version and play here with HC's version without trying to make the two very different servers the same.)