Focused Feedback: Storm Blast

[Booper]

4 minutes ago, Beldath said:

This is a very poor and unfortunate design choice, especially on a middling damage set.

I am not following. Are you wanting the power to not be able to enhance itself using SOs, Hamis, and Alpha incarnates? I was simply clarifying what the full slotting options are. As for the design, the game has always worked that way. I will be reviewing the options to address the matter.l, though. 

[Booper]

1 hour ago, Bellicose said:

Out of curiosity, are the AT Specific sets also tagged in such a way?

ATOs are classified as Damage, so any power taking damage boosts will accept its enhancements.

 

Edit: I'm gonna "well, actually" myself. Dominator and Controller ATOs are classified as Mezz, not Damage. But under the context of Storm Blast, all relevant ATOs are treated as damage.

[Beldath]

9 minutes ago, Booper said:

I am not following. Are you wanting the power to not be able to enhance itself using SOs, Hamis, and Alpha incarnates? I was simply clarifying what the full slotting options are. As for the design, the game has always worked that way. I will be reviewing the options to address the matter.l, though. 

No, I meant this being the only way to slot it is rather unfortunate, as even if it did accept sets, it would be nowhere near the strength of fire blast or ice blast, even beam rifle.

[Booper]

Just now, Beldath said:

No, I meant this being the only way to slot it is rather unfortunate, as even if it did accept sets, it would be nowhere near the strength of fire blast or ice blast, even beam rifle.

Ah, I see what you mean. 

[Puma]

OK, so I officially just don't understand the set's design.  

 

I'm running level 28 missions at +1x2 which is the minimum diff I ever run, even on brand new characters.  

 

I cant get through a single fight without being utterly winded. Granted I'm using only IOs, but man. 

 

Dropping Storm Cell costs 15 end right off the bat, and does no damage. So I'm already starting -every single fight- with an end debt of 15, because I have to recast it all the time because it doesn't follow fast enough.  Then I have this feeling like I need to immediately start spamming attacks to try and maximize its added damage.  Only that drains me through end far faster, too, and honestly, I don't see a ton of added damage from it.  

 

Even when I drop Cat 5 (right now just slotted with 3 scourging blast) I am having to try and knock out damage while avoiding the agro it caused before things die. That's something no other tier 9 makes happen. Even blizzard works so fast it tends to take out a bunch of the minions before I suffer agro.   And I know someone earlier said that was by design:  This set is designed for higher level, longer fights, and that's where it shines.  Only...there's a serious flaw there.  By nature in this game, higher level drawn out fights are things like AVs...and this set's acc checks for its core mechanic, and the lock outs on a target every 5 seconds, mean that its LESS effective in those situations.   You'll be spending a bunch of end to drop these powers and have their procs just miss, or hit once then be locked out for 5 seconds until it can try again.  

 

This set is feeling more complicated than any set I've ever played,  except perhaps Dual Blades, and yet still feels anemic in the damage I'm putting out overall.  At least with Dual Blades I could ignore the mechanic and still have a really nice damage output, but not with this set.  I've face planted twice in this mission, which at +1x2 is insane.  I'm barely able to use my secondary because the makeup of Storm Cell and Cat 5 demand me to focus so heavily on my primary, which only makes matters worse.  

 

Right now, I'm almost ready to walk away and give up. If this were live this toon would be shelved.  I think I'm going to wait for the next build before I do anymore testing.  Right now, here are my thoughts where it stands: 

 

Overall:  C-.   

The set is BEAUTIFUL and I want to love it.  The concepts are cool, the powers looks great, and it shines. 

 

But actual playstyle is terrible.   It's slow.  Way too slow.   I don't like having to wait back for Storm Cell to catch up, and I REALLY don't like the idea I can just drop it again with its massive end cost.  It's also a slotting nightmare.   

 

Cat 5 is a cool concept, but it needs direct, upfront agro management.  When you first drop it, a loud thunder crack should cause momentary terrorize or something.  Right now, it's the opposite of what a nuke should feel like to me.  I know, I know...it's not a nuke.  But that just makes this set even more anemic.  I actually am using Oil Slick Arrow more than Cat 5, if that says anything.  But if it just had a strong, up front short duration mez while you begin building up the damage I think it could fix it, and become a unique, fun power, even though it's still less useful than a normal nuke.  

 

Storm cell needs to be reworked:  It needs to be faster, or not follow at all.  It needs to cost far less end, and it needs a higher base acc, lower natural recharge, or make the damage un-enhanceable with a slight damage increase so you can focus your slots on those other issues.  one other recommendation I have?  Make the procs auto-hit.   With the lock out in play, the damage still wont be crazy overpowered,  but it would help with both slotting AND feeling like the power has some pay off for its quirks.  It could help with things like MoGs on paragon protectors, etc and suddenly feel worth it.   Personally, I'd rather see this power go and be replaced entirely with something else. I feel like it's ruining the set as is. 

  

The rest of the set is OK, but because it's balanced around those two powers triggering procs in Storm Cell and Cat 5, the attacks all feel mediocre on their own. And since those two powers are not good as is, the set feels that way to me overall.  

Edited April 19, 2023 by Puma

[Frosticus]

5 minutes ago, Booper said:

I am not following. Are you wanting the power to not be able to enhance itself using SOs, Hamis, and Alpha incarnates? I was simply clarifying what the full slotting options are. As for the design, the game has always worked that way. I will be reviewing the options to address the matter.l, though. 

I think you've just taken the lid off of a long persistent issue in the game that normally doesn't matter.

 

Sure if I slot an accurate tohit debuff set into my Umbral Beast it gimps the accuracy on 3 out of 5 of it's powers 

Similar for carrion creepers if I slot an immobilization set.

Or someone slotting accurate healing in their Lich.

 

but in the actual game it is probably very rare for players to experience such unintentional gimping of their powers.

 

Storm Cell, you gimp a major aspect of the power if you choose invention sets. It doesn't matter what set you choose it gimps the other half of the power.

I don't know the solution, maybe similar to as suggested:

add low probability/value chance of  damage, end drain, and knock to High Winds

add low probability/value chance of slow and tohit debuff to lightning auras

 

Then it wouldn't matter what set you pick it would enhance the applicable aspect of both powers.

 

I hesitate though because that might make Storm Cell pretty deliciously damage procy if it ends up rolling something like positron chance for energy on lightning attacks and high winds.

 

Alternately, make high winds unenhanceable, but autohit.

 

 

[Vanden]

53 minutes ago, Puma said:

Dropping Storm Cell costs 15 end right off the bat, and does no damage. So I'm already starting -every single fight- with an end debt of 15, because I have to recast it all the time because it doesn't follow fast enough.  Then I have this feeling like I need to immediately start spamming attacks to try and maximize its added damage.  Only that drains me through end far faster, too, and honestly, I don't see a ton of added damage from it.  

 

Can you clarify this bolded part here? I'm having trouble understanding what you mean. You have to use attacks to clear any sort of encounter, so I'm not sure why you seem to say that needing to use further attacks to get Storm Cell procs is having a negative effect on the experience of the set for you.

[FupDup]

One solution might be to add "universal enhancement" sets that just offer generic stuff like accuracy, endurance, recharge. These sets would be able to slot into nearly any power in the game and would applicable to both aspects of Storm Cell. Here is an example: 

 

[Wavicle]

Is it possible to make High Winds do no damage but be damage enhanceable?

So it would take strength boosts from damage sets, but not actually do any additional damage?

[warlyx]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

 

Can you clarify this bolded part here? I'm having trouble understanding what you mean. You have to use attacks to clear any sort of encounter, so I'm not sure why you seem to say that needing to use further attacks to get Storm Cell procs is having a negative effect on the experience of the set for you.

 

he is 28 "I'm running level 28 missions at +1x2 which is the minimum diff I ever run, even on brand new characters. "

 

at low lvls when u cant drop storm cell every pull, and when u do u dont just think about anything u just spam your skills , in order to get the most from the fresh casted Storm Cell.

 

/secondary powers? (primary in case of Defender)  who has time for that when u cast storm cell.

 

Cat 5 is even worse .

 

 

 

Edited April 19, 2023 by warlyx

[Wavicle]

20 minutes ago, warlyx said:

/secondary powers? (primary in case of Defender)  who has time for that when u cast storm cell.

 

Cat 5 is even worse .

I noticed this, mostly on the Defender and Corruptor.

I *think* the long duration of these powers is what's meant to balance this.

Go ahead and use your secondaries, SC/C5 will still be there after. But yes, it is to your advantage to use buffs and debuffs before you're ready to unload, so as to not interrupt yourself.

Or play a Sentinel and you don't have this problem.

[warlyx]

14 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

I noticed this, mostly on the Defender and Corruptor.

I *think* the long duration of these powers is what's meant to balance this.

Go ahead and use your secondaries, SC/C5 will still be there after. But yes, it is to your advantage to use buffs and debuffs before you're ready to unload, so as to not interrupt yourself.

Or play a Sentinel and you don't have this problem.

 

or play other powerset ? 😛 

[Wavicle]

5 minutes ago, warlyx said:

 

or play other powerset ? 😛 

if you don't enjoy this one sure. But I've had plenty of success with Corruptor/Defender Storm Blast so far...Nature Affinity pairs very nicely with it...

[Neogumbercules]

25 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

if you don't enjoy this one sure. But I've had plenty of success with Corruptor/Defender Storm Blast so far...Nature Affinity pairs very nicely with it...

I did a Storm/Dark Corr and it was really fun BUT I did give myself full incarnate powers. I used the auto-slot feature though so I'm sure the build was garbage.

 

That said, I liked playing the set but I didn't feel like a god or anything.

[Mezicus]

On 4/5/2023 at 6:20 PM, WindDemon21 said:

I think we all agree here, that having, especially a nuke, deal its weakest damage first and build up, is the WORST way to go with a nuke. You need it to do the upfront damage, especially on blasters. If it's other factors help control the mob like blizzard does, this can be ok, but let its damage even out like blizzard then, having it be weaker at the start, is exactly one of the main reason why Meteor is such absolute trash, especially when teaming. Since the mobs can end up dead before your nuke even does anything for damage. Please fix this to be more evened out over it's duration. Additionally, rain powers don't benefit as much from powers like build up which also really hurts it, hence where this, (and ice blast IMO) should have a longer duration buff that will last during the whole nuke's duration.

He makes some really valid points.  I would also accept keeping the power as is but reducing the recharge to offset the weak, late scaling dmg.  The recharge of 170 seconds is a bit much for a power that has lower DPS and weak debuffs.  Making the cooldown shorter would give the set a more "Energized" feel, like you are always charged up and ready to go and would really make the set feel less like a handicap.

[WindDemon21]

4 hours ago, Frosticus said:

I think you've just taken the lid off of a long persistent issue in the game that normally doesn't matter.

 

Sure if I slot an accurate tohit debuff set into my Umbral Beast it gimps the accuracy on 3 out of 5 of it's powers 

Similar for carrion creepers if I slot an immobilization set.

Or someone slotting accurate healing in their Lich.

 

but in the actual game it is probably very rare for players to experience such unintentional gimping of their powers.

 

Storm Cell, you gimp a major aspect of the power if you choose invention sets. It doesn't matter what set you choose it gimps the other half of the power.

I don't know the solution, maybe similar to as suggested:

add low probability/value chance of  damage, end drain, and knock to High Winds

add low probability/value chance of slow and tohit debuff to lightning auras

 

Then it wouldn't matter what set you pick it would enhance the applicable aspect of both powers.

 

I hesitate though because that might make Storm Cell pretty deliciously damage procy if it ends up rolling something like positron chance for energy on lightning attacks and high winds.

 

Alternately, make high winds unenhanceable, but autohit.

 

 

This was exactly what I was going to suggest as a "quick fix" Just add like a 1% of every effect to each proc that doens't have that effect. So 1% slow/0.01mag kd/-1% THD chance to the lightning damage proc, and 1damage/1%-end to high winds. It's not that complicated to at least make this slotting issue work right off the bat. But i'd also be in the agree part where at least high winds could/should just be autohit and leave the enhancing to the actual damage. As it's just mitigation/debuff, lots of powers are autohit for those, but that still doesn't solve the issue unless the damage proc also gets that 1% slow/kd as well so sets you use for that in the power also still buff the accuracy/damage on the damage proc as well.

 

Of course, this is REALLY just opening up the major issue that's prevalent that really should just be addressed as is. However in the back end it's possible, any set enhancement that boosts accuracy, or damage, or whatever, should go to the PET/PSEUDOPET, not to the individual attacks that that particular set takes. Like, I'm surprized this was even how it worked prior, but like Frost just said, it's usually in less important pet, they have tactics on, or the pseudopet has all of the sets in the one attack, such as acid mortar. taking ranged aoe and defense debuff sets, but it's all in the same attack so that doesn't matter. But here is a HUGE example where it does, and the whole coding should be fixed. Now I know this is weird game code so i don't know how feasable that is, but in the powers themselves there are solutions.

 

For now, do this quick fix where both procs have a little stat of the other one, or tbh I'm not even sure why they're split into two procs to begin with and just just one proc that occurs more often (not locking out) and has lower values. So something you'd see more of and maybe stack the debuffs but less damage per hit.

 

Additionally, I'll once again bring up the issue of the base accuracy in general, where it needs to be 1.4x normal accuracy, or this set is ONLY going to reliably work against +2s or lower, making it a clear worst blast set there is.

 

Even with everything in this set being buffed up to top notch, then it's still facing the issue of what an EXHAUSTIVE set this is as far as powers and slots goes. It leaves hardly any left for whatever else your primary or secondary set is. So with that in mind, it really should be borderline too OP for how much you have to invest in it.

[WindDemon21]

Also, not sure if it's a bug in the way that it displays, but direct strike is only showing a .10 end drain on the target, not 20%. It seems like it's taking more than that , but like, the 10% it's probably saying, not the 20%.

[WindDemon21]

Also, with whatever changes was done for storm cell/cat5 to be easier to see, I still can't see hardly anything of them on my computer to see where they are actually at/affecting. Could we get something more pronounced like the ring around arctic fog? Because this is solo and still hard to see for my settings, let alone what it'll be like on a team with multiple other powers spamming.

 

edit: the 1.66 mag knockback also seems a bit high, in lieu also of the major slotting issue that storm has, can it start out as knockdown only but enhanceable to knockback for those who prefer the kb (which especially in this set is bad anyway, cause it'll knock them out of the storm cell and cat5 effects, so it is actively working against itself. The more i play it, the more the wow factor is wearing off and the more it's problems are becoming ever-present.

Edited April 20, 2023 by WindDemon21

[Bellicose]

1 minute ago, WindDemon21 said:

Also, with whatever changes was done for storm cell/cat5 to be easier to see, I still can't see hardly anything of them on my computer to see where they are actually at/affecting. Could we get something more pronounced like the ring around arctic fog? Because this is solo and still hard to see for my settings, let alone what it'll be like on a team with multiple other powers spamming.

I had this problem until I upped my Graphics Quality. Have you tested that?

[Booper]

10 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Also, not sure if it's a bug in the way that it displays, but direct strike is only showing a .10 end drain on the target, not 20%. It seems like it's taking more than that , but like, the 10% it's probably saying, not the 20%.

When you pull up the help info I am pretty sure you're seeing the Slow Snipe details, which should be 20% end drain. Quick Snipe does 10%.

[WindDemon21]

Just now, Booper said:

When you pull up the help info I am pretty sure you're seeing the Slow Snipe details, which should be 20% end drain. Quick Snipe does 10%.

Ahright forgot about the slow snipe nm on that, but the other issues oof XD

[Jacke]

11 hours ago, Booper said:

Circling back on this. The bug I thought you were reporting wasn't what I thought it was. I overlooked the fact you were referencing the Wind Speed proc, not the Lightning Aura proc. 

 

The reason why Positron Blast is not enhancing the accuracy is because Positron is classified as a damage boost, and windspeed does not accept damage boosts. This is the same behavior seen with MM pets.

 

So it's not a bug, but I will look more into it.

 

I can understand what you mean.  But I strongly think it's a wrong principle to follow.

 

If a power accepts single-aspect enhancements of a particular type (eg. Accuracy) and some (not necessarily all) of the parts of the power are buffed by that single-aspect enhancement, then those parts that are buffed by that particular type of single-aspect enhancement (eg. Accuracy) need to accept buffing from all similar aspects (eg. Accuracy aspects) from ALL enhancements slotted, whether TOs, DOs, SOs, HOs, IOs, ATOs, WOs, whatever.  If you start having IO sets of particular types that can be slotted into the power but only affect some parts of the power, while a single-aspect enhancements affect more parts, that's just too much complexity.

 

Making strong and pretty Builds in City of Heroes is already a twisted process of balancing goals and trying out options and even going back and trying radically different approaches.  I've spent far too much time staring at various Toon Builders over the years, currently Mids Reborn (MRB).  I help other players to tweak their builds to get more out of them.  If you layer on this extra complexity, it's just too much.  It's also likely it won't be implemented soon into MRB or may have bugs.  Players will mistakenly slot the power not understanding this at all.  And a common burden reducer is to assume the Hero Builder being used is correct (I try to track down as many MRB bugs WRT the game as possible and pass them onto the MRB team to help).

 

If that's what you think the power needs, I think you need to do the simpler option and just exclude some or all IO sets from being slotting into the power.  Else players will slot them and think they're better than they are.  And not understand why they aren't.

 

City of Heroes Toon Builds are complex enough as it is.  Please don't make it worse.  If this already exists for other powers (highly likely), please consider finding a way to remove this extra complexity.

Edited April 20, 2023 by Jacke

[Lazarillo]

Just want to say I noticed in the Patch Notes that Storm Cell has a faster Recharge now. Not sure when the patch went up and was too busy today to test it anyway, but on paper that sounds like a really big improvement.  I'll plan to give it a try soon, but just wanted to toss out a pre-thank-you on that front. Not sure what the perception chances will mean to it, but if it cycles faster and I can put it where I want, it sounds solid enough that it doesn't matter.

Edited April 20, 2023 by Lazarillo

[Wavicle]

10 minutes ago, Jacke said:

 

I can understand what you mean.  But I strongly think it's a wrong principle to follow.

 

If a power accepts single-aspect enhancements of a particular type (eg. Accuracy) and some (not necessarily all) of the parts of the power are buffed by that single-aspect enhancement, then those parts that are buffed by that particular type of single-aspect enhancement (eg. Accuracy) need to accept buffing from all similar aspects (eg. Accuracy aspects) from ALL enhancements slotted, whether TOs, DOs, SOs, HOs, IOs, ATOs, WOs, whatever.  If you start having IO sets of particular types that can be slotted into the power but only affect some parts of the power, while a single-aspect enhancements affect more parts, that's just too much complexity.

 

Making strong and pretty Builds in City of Heroes is already a twisted process of balancing goals and trying out options and even going back and trying radically different approaches.  I've spent far too much time staring at various Toon Builders over the years, currently Mids Reborn (MRB).  I help other players to tweak their builds to get more out of them.  If you layer on this extra complexity, it's just too much.  It's also likely it won't be implemented soon into MRB or may have bugs.  Players will mistakenly slot the power not understanding this at all.  And a common burden reducer is to assume the Hero Builder being used is correct (I try to track down as many MRB bugs WRT the game as possible and pass them onto the MRB team to help).

 

If that's what you think the power needs, I think you need to do the simpler option and just exclude IO sets from the power.  Else players will slot them and think they're better than they are.  And not understand why they aren't.

 

City of Heroes Toon Builds are complex enough as it is.  Please don't make it worse.  If this already exists for other powers (highly likely), please consider finding a way to remove this extra complexity.

All powers with multiple functions work this way, to my knowledge.

[Jacke]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

All powers with multiple functions work this way, to my knowledge.

 

So if a power has multiple functions/parts and say one of them is flagged only to accept non-set enhancements and eg. "damage" set enhancements, then it ignores all IOs from sets that aren't "damage" sets.  So if the power accepts Accuracy enhancements and it buffs those parts, but the Accuracy aspects of say "mez" set IOs don't.  Is that what you're saying.

 

This is just wrong.  It makes figuring out what the up-to 6 enhancements actually do to a power way more complex.  There's enough complexity in builds and this game.  Doing this is just begging to have most players hamstring their builds.