Focused Feedback: Blast Power Set Updates

[Galaxy Brain]

15 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

 

Did you actually test this or is this theory crafting?

 

This is based on math of how the game works + numbers right from CoD.

 

15 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

 

Slot these procs as you list them on the current HC version and go spam Suppressive Fire on a +4 boss.  Then slot Suppressive Fire on test however seems optimal trying to add onto that new internal damage which now two slots at minimum you'll at least be slotting to boost for more moderate damage, taking the place of two procs, and go spam the attack on a +4 boss to see how much faster you clear them.

 

16x increase to damage output seems like wonky math to me, in fact any reliable increase to damage seems wholly unlikely from how it tested out for me.  

 

Its x16 damage from the 6.26 on live to the 102.6 it does now before procs/enhancement. That doesn't need testing,  and thanks to math the above should be relatively the same in game if you try it.

 

As mentioned by Booper tho, this is derailing yet all the math shows it to be a wash.

Edited April 10, 2023 by Galaxy Brain

[Mezmera]

It's focused feedback about directly testing the powers in question.  Not a math theory class.  If you've tested this power great please do add to the conversation.  If you haven't then this topic is being diluted as Bopper is insinuating.  

 

I'll leave this here as the devs wish but please do test things out since this is a feedback thread to test the powers they want you to test.  

[Galaxy Brain]

Just now, Mezmera said:

It's focused feedback about directly testing the powers in question.  Not a math theory class.  If you've tested this power great please do add to the conversation.  If you haven't then this topic is being diluted as Bopper is insinuating.  

 

I'll leave this here as the devs wish but please do test things out since this is a feedback thread to test the powers they want you to test.  

 

I can certainly do a test later when home from work, but as a Video Game the math should mirror what was posted above roughly over time.

 

If you want to do the same test alongside me and post results that'd be awesome! Don't even need to take down a boss specifically, just a RWZ dummy and tracking the damage over say... 20 shots and see what the averages are.

[Mezmera]

1 minute ago, Galaxy Brain said:

If you want to do the same test alongside me and post results that'd be awesome! Don't even need to take down a boss specifically, just a RWZ dummy and tracking the damage over say... 20 shots and see what the averages are.

 

I picked a Cimeroran boss as this game is also about the NPC's hitting back and seemed relevant due to the newest Hard Mode content.  Which now the hold being lesser of a hold also adds to the survivability issue if you're not able to fire back the necessary high damage to clear said targets.  

 

I'd have no problem picking on a test dummy with you sure.  But I have done my in game testing and found Suppressive Fire to be much less effective for fighting enemies that fight back.  

[KC4800]

OK I see a lot of people are happy that AR is losing BeanBag for Aim. I am not, because I stack the ranged stun of bean bag with taser on my AR/Dev blaster. Can they possibly add stun to Slug so I can still have access to a ranged ST stun power to stack with taser to take down S/L resistant bosses?

[Booper]

1 minute ago, KC4800 said:

OK I see a lot of people are happy that AR is losing BeanBag for Aim. I am not, because I stack the ranged stun of bean bag with taser on my AR/Dev blaster. Can they possibly add stun to Slug so I can still have access to a ranged ST stun power to stack with taser to take down S/L resistant bosses?

Beanbag will return. Aim will go away. Hopefully next build will hit brainstorm in a day or two.

[High_Beam]

Procs.  Please don't say this is all about getting a handle on Proc "abuse" or whatever.  I don't have a single proc in Suppressive Fire because I have other play styles and the fact is, the suppression of suppressive fire is how I have used it on most of my DP toons minus the Sentinel because . . .  Sentinel.  But how can anyone say that the proc action is changing.  You can still slot all that in there because it still does a hold (now super ineffective and pointless) and does more damage.  and now, it freaking has a super fast recharge so all I see is more proc.

 

Again, not always about damage.  I can count on like five fingers the number of times that my non-proc, non-Uber Set IO level 35 DP/Ninja Blaster has been face planted.

[Mezmera]

4 minutes ago, High_Beam said:

Procs.  Please don't say this is all about getting a handle on Proc "abuse" or whatever.  I don't have a single proc in Suppressive Fire because I have other play styles and the fact is, the suppression of suppressive fire is how I have used it on most of my DP toons minus the Sentinel because . . .  Sentinel.  But how can anyone say that the proc action is changing.  You can still slot all that in there because it still does a hold (now super ineffective and pointless) and does more damage.  and now, it freaking has a super fast recharge so all I see is more proc.

 

Again, not always about damage.  I can count on like five fingers the number of times that my non-proc, non-Uber Set IO level 35 DP/Ninja Blaster has been face planted.

 

Because the devs are coders and have a good grasp on the inner workings of how things end up mathing out.  Plus they also have access to back end data reflecting how much more effective a power that can proc 6 procs at a 90% fire rate is compared to 6 that proc at a 40-50% fire rate.  

 

But they don't really want to have this conversation in this topic as they know the deal.  Which is fine and if you look at the change to Suppressive Fire in a vacuum it becomes the less abusive power they wish to achieve disregarding what else DP has in the kit to offset losing such an effective ability.  

 

I don't play psi blast but it looks to me like they compensated for the change in effectiveness to a few powers with buffs to other things which DP received nothing of the sort which makes this a much harder set to take serious about playing in comparison to what others can do.  I enjoy DP for the fun of it but at a certain point effectiveness/fun > more fun/less effective.  

[ScarySai]

2 hours ago, Booper said:

Beanbag will return

 

You know what might actually be useful? A toggle that converts my knock into stuns.

 

Otherwise, ugh.

Edited April 10, 2023 by ScarySai

[FupDup]

2 hours ago, Booper said:

Beanbag will return. Aim will go away. Hopefully next build will hit brainstorm in a day or two.

How about some alternatives: 

• Teargas Grenade (hold)
• Flashbang Grenade (area stun)
• Glue Grenade (area slow, -fly, -jump, would have high synergy with Ignite if that ever came back)
• Liquid Nitrogen Round (hold, borrowed from Malta Gunslingers)
• Add the stun to Slug or Incinerator instead

[FupDup]

Here's another kinda wonky idea:

 

Target Designator: You point a laser beam at the selected target for a few seconds and it debuffs their defense and resistance (basically surveillance). Accomplishes a similar thing as Aim while being very unique among blast sets. It also applies a mag 3 stun to the target because laser beams are very bright. 

[WindDemon21]

It's also worth noting, that oh top of getting 90s recharges, in addition to rain of farrows , full auto also takeas a huge hit on sentinels, because it doesn't get a good secondary effect. On other ATs this is balanced by it having the much shorter recharge, but on sentinels,  they not only get LONGER recharges on these two powers, but they also get hurt even more by having them not do anything extra to help the sentinel survive. Other nukes get a big stun, hold, knock, or soemthing to help them. But full auto and rain of arrwos get just really  ruined on this sentinel port. Hail of bullets similarly *kinda* does, but its' not as dramatic cause at least it gets a lower recharge and its close to it's original so it doesn't lose out on as much.

[Gobbledigook]

1 hour ago, WindDemon21 said:

It's also worth noting, that oh top of getting 90s recharges, in addition to rain of farrows , full auto also takeas a huge hit on sentinels, because it doesn't get a good secondary effect. On other ATs this is balanced by it having the much shorter recharge, but on sentinels,  they not only get LONGER recharges on these two powers, but they also get hurt even more by having them not do anything extra to help the sentinel survive. Other nukes get a big stun, hold, knock, or soemthing to help them. But full auto and rain of arrwos get just really  ruined on this sentinel port. Hail of bullets similarly *kinda* does, but its' not as dramatic cause at least it gets a lower recharge and its close to it's original so it doesn't lose out on as much.

It does get a small chance at extra damage but that is quite low indeed. It could do with something more .  Most Sentinel T9s do close to 200 damage base but Full auto seems to be only 152 damage, so it is not even in line with other Sentinel T9s. As they are all on the same recharge then Full auto needs a good 30% buff to its damage to bring it even with other Sentinel T9s.

 

Example.....

Sentinel Psychic Wail does 194.59 damage with 90 second recharge. It also debuffs recharge all the time.

Sentinel Full auto does 152.13 (13.83x11) damage with 90 second recharge. It has a very small chance (10%?) of a little extra damage (5.72x11) that is pretty bad on a 90 second recharge.

They both hit the same amount of targets.

 

Full auto for Sentinels should be doing closer to 18x11 damage and needs a buff.  The extra 30 second recharge would compensate for hitting the same amount of targets as a Blaster/Defender/corruptor. Hits the same amount but less recharge.

Edited April 11, 2023 by Gobbledigook

[Lost Deep]

I'm testing the DP changes, and... with new Suppressive Fire, why would I want Executioner's Shot? Suppressive fire does slightly less damage, true, but it also has a faster recharge time, less endurance, and a useful rider. Executioner's Shot's bonus accuracy isn't bad, but I'm already slotting Accuracy on everything anyway. What's to gain from Executioner's Shot? I'm honestly not sure whether I'm missing something or if new Suppressive Fire is starting to crowd Executioner's Shot's niche.

[ScarySai]

23 minutes ago, Lost Deep said:

with new Suppressive Fire, why would I want Executioner's Shot?

Because your selection of worthwhile attacks is already pitifully low with how lame piercing rounds is.

[Draeth Darkstar]

6 hours ago, Booper said:

Beanbag will return. Aim will go away. Hopefully next build will hit brainstorm in a day or two.

 

Not much of a sample size, but the reactions to this post are certainly one-sided.

[Dispari]

I would personally prefer Aim stay if it's between that and Beanbag. Of course what the Sentinel version does is drop Slug for Disorienting Shot, which stuns and does good damage. So you could have both.

[Green Bean]

Just to confirm, the changes to Psychic powers are specifically to the powers listed under the Psychic Blast set, correct? The Psionic Tornado changes aren't being ported over to Psionic Mastery/Fortunata Training, nor the Scramble Thoughts over to Fortunata Training?

[ScarySai]

8 minutes ago, Dispari said:

I would personally prefer Aim stay if it's between that and Beanbag. Of course what the Sentinel version does is drop Slug for Disorienting Shot, which stuns and does good damage. So you could have both.

I'd settle for a middle point: a weaker Aim that gives sniper rifle, slug and incinerator a high chance to stun during its duration.

 

Makes the stun unintrusive for ideal Ar play and gives a valuable damage buff regardless, gives the people who think Beanbag is worth taking their precious stun.

 

Beanbag is otherwise a bad power for AR. A single target stun is not a good power for a set with as much knock as ar. 

 

Edited April 11, 2023 by ScarySai

[Kaika]

7 hours ago, Booper said:

Beanbag will return. Aim will go away. Hopefully next build will hit brainstorm in a day or two.

Odd this seemed like the change that was more well liked, but I'll withhold judgement until I see the next build, I'm more curious about ignite/incinerator as if the current changes went through I would be dropping this power as I have no need for another single target attack on my AR/Nin. Through my testing, incinerator did not seem worth it over my current attacks. While the DPA seems ok, the damage still isn't anything to go crazy over and takes too long to take full effect. Good for Corr/defs or blaster more reliant on their primary sure, but for my toon with access to good single target attacks in nin this change is a straight downgrade that removes a high damage but situational tool from my kit. My plan was to replace it with aim (Likely making it a net positive over all) if the changes went through but now I'm curious to see what will be done.

Edited April 11, 2023 by Riot Siren

[psylum1]

I threw together a generic IO build for AR/Ninja and took it for a spin against +1/x3 on test. I had choking powder, char, bonfire, and all the knocks that AR is known for. No aim for this test.

 

I waited to engage until bonfire was ready and used both holds liberally throughout the missions. After just 2 missions my death total was 9. 

 

I was playing very conservatively, using corner pulling, leading enemies in bonfire ect. Every death, and I mean every one, was because a hold or M-30 missed. 

 

All that crowd control didn't make a difference after a couple glooms from Vampyri killed my acc.

[ScarySai]

My opinion is known to you, but I want to voice it openly.

 

Aim should stay. If you want to avoid the cottage burn for beanbag specifically for some reason, you should just move the stun effect to another power, like incinerate or slug.

 

If incin is supposed to be ar's big single target chunker, powers like that often have secondary effects like a stun or knock or whatever. Slapping damage and a lower recharge on beanbag like what you did with suppressive isn't going to work.

Edited April 11, 2023 by ScarySai

[Booper]

1 hour ago, Green Bean said:

Just to confirm, the changes to Psychic powers are specifically to the powers listed under the Psychic Blast set, correct? The Psionic Tornado changes aren't being ported over to Psionic Mastery/Fortunata Training, nor the Scramble Thoughts over to Fortunata Training?

Correct

[TurboRaptor]

Beanbag is atrocious.  Ignite is atrocious.

 

I understand doing a major change and removing a power in favor of another is a huge change.  It's hard to keep people happy with something like this.  However I don't think removing more potential damage for a set that's supposed to do damage for a very minor CC is a good move.  It's also very thematic for a weapon you should be aiming with to have a power that is called Aim.

 

Reworking Ignite into Incenerator is a cool idea, and I can see having it stun.  It might justify taking it despite it not doing the best damage, especially for ATs that only have their primary and epics to rely on for damage. 

 

And personally, I don't think it needs it at all considering you can juggle a boss with Slug, Snipe, M60 Grenade and Buckshot already.  That or just outright kill it.

Edited April 11, 2023 by TurboRaptor

[Galaxy Brain]

Doing some quick testing on a DP/ Blaster with the procs mentioned prior between Live/Beta, I got the following results from 20 hits each on my training dummy. The Total is the total damage dealt, AVG number is the total damage / 20 shots, the % is the % of the total damage, Hits and Proc % show how often an effect went off:

 

 

 

 

In this sample of only 20 shots, the damage dealt by the Live version is about 17.22% more than the current Brainstorm patch. Looking at the proc rate, this could be due to Neuronic randomly not proccing as often as the others... if we game the system a little bit, we can see what it looks like if Neuronic procced just 6 times like Ghost widow did:

 

 

This adds 215.22 total damage, and makes Live only 13.5% better damage. 

 

 

This is without any added enhancement, but what I forgot was the Blaster ATO does enhance recharge, but with it's super high PPM I figured it'd be good to test it out. This could be why Neuronic got some worse rolls on the Brainstorm set of 20. A further test with more shots (100 lets say) would show better averages. Speaking of damage and enhancement, lets take a look at these values if we just straight up replaced Neuronic with an Acc/End enhancement:

 

 

With 5 procs, the big difference between the two is highlighted as the advantage of live drops to 5.4%. On Brainstorm, the majority of damage is always coming from Suppressive Fire itself. This is where stuff like Defiance, Assault, or just Damage Enhancement comes into play. Interestingly, the changes between Live and Brainstorm did alter Defiance where I had a higher average with Live than Brainstorm by a few %! 

 

 

Lets recalc these though as if we slotted a Thunderstrike Acc/Dam instead of an Acc/End though, giving the power a 26.5% damage boost:

 

 

 

 

With a non-SO level of damage enhancement + Defiance, adding up to 49.5% on Live and 47.5% on Brainstorm (Avg), Brainstorm managed to out-do Live this time by about 2%. With an SO level / Superior Blaster Acc/Dam, the difference grows close to 4%:

 

 

 

And with an Apocalypse +Damage, it swings to a clean 9.75% in favor of Brainstorm.

 

 

 

If I replace the next worst proc (Ghost Widow) with an Apocalypse Dam/End for even more +Dam the difference skyrockets to nearly 25% in favor of Brainstorm:

 

 

 

In fairness though, lets compare the original Live proc-bomb version to the one with 2 slots dedicated to damage:

 

 

Basically equal!

 

It also cannot be understated the damage percent that you get out of each version when you *DON'T* proc. On Brainstorm, if you do not proc anything you are still doing 40-56% of the potential damage, while on live you are looking at 2-5%ish at best which could lead to critical fails of a sort as seen where there were a few times I didn't proc.

 

What this sample + math shows to me, is that on average the new Supressive Fire affords more slotting flexibility compared to before where Damage sets could be used to good effect while still being able to toss in procs. The much bigger damage allows for outside buffs to greatly influence the power, as does the boosted recharge allow you to toss this near-equal damage out way way faster. 

I do not see the issue on the proc/damage side *specifically*.