Misconceptions about a tank

[biostem]

3 hours ago, ZemX said:

Much as I have enjoyed playing tanks in this game, I have always thought the whole idea of Taunt was some kind of hack that was only created after the person who first created the MMO tank belatedly realized that they'd invented something no one in their right mind would ever even bother attacking otherwise.

IMHO it's because the only other solution would be to give tankers a level of damage output that would rival the dedicated damage dealers, which would mess things up even worse, so taunt and other such aggro overrides were put in place...

[MoonSheep]

On 5/17/2023 at 8:44 PM, ZemX said:

 

Except for a few odd outliers, most of the results are within a few percentage points of each other in clear times.  Scrappers in this test are beating Tankers for about half of the powersets shown and that's with the built-in disadvantage of less aggro control, which hurts them in this solo test.   In a team, they are easily outdamaging Tankers, especially in non-ideal cases where the spawns are not so easily bunched together.

 

Frankly, in a team of toons built to this extreme you aren't going to notice ANY differences among them.  

 

And you don't really see a City of Tankers when you are in game either, so if Tanks are such hot commodities, few seem to realize it.  At the highest end, it almost doesn't matter what you are playing.  At the lower end of content and in low/mid levels, Tankers are by no means outdamaging the other melee ATs.

 

 

the data is really hard to align with perception - i want to make an ice/ice *something* soon and my brain won’t accept that the tank would also be a suitable option for good damage

 

tanks are such a good AT thesedays, i agree with you that people are unaware however. i see a lot of outdated trends promoted 

[Jiro Ito]

On 5/13/2023 at 1:51 AM, Diantane said:

The best team will also have a "defensive" built tank,  a dedicated healer (no blasts), and controller or defender with lots of debuffs/buffs (no blasts). The remaining team should be your DPS. Unfortunately you rarely see this. 

 

But...if you have a tank...what do you need a dedicated healer for?  

 

[ZemX]

9 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

the data is really hard to align with perception - i want to make an ice/ice *something* soon and my brain won’t accept that the tank would also be a suitable option for good damage

 

The really great thing Ston has done in that thread is post all the builds, so I would definitely download and compare his Ice Melee builds to whatever you're considering to see if it's even close to what you were thinking.  Without leaning as heavily into procs as he has, I don't think you will see the same relationship between Scrappers, Brutes, and Tankers as in his data.

 

And side note to Ice Melee + Ice Armor... I know that Ice Melee is fantastic on Stalkers and I've heard Ice Armor is as well.  No doubt you wouldn't see them measuring up on AoE to others but they will outclass any of the other melee ATs with Ice Melee for Single Target damage thanks to having Greater Ice Sword swapped for Assassin Strike.

[Sovera]

46 minutes ago, Jiro Ito said:

 

But...if you have a tank...what do you need a dedicated healer for?  

 

 

He thinks dedicated tankers take damage :D:D:D

[ZemX]

40 minutes ago, Sovera said:

He thinks dedicated tankers take damage :D:D:D

 

[Biff Pow]

Ah, a good old Tankers and Taunt thread. Takes me back to 2006.

[Brawlin]

4 hours ago, Jiro Ito said:

 

But...if you have a tank...what do you need a dedicated healer for?  

 

When enemies are guaranteed to hit you and defense debuff nails you. You need some serious single target healing from empathy or a pain even with . None of our 4 man challenge runs would've been possible without it.

Forgot to mention the massive +tohit enemies get in harder content

Edited May 19, 2023 by Brawlin

[Owenknowone]

4 hours ago, MoonSheep said:

 

the data is really hard to align with perception - i want to make an ice/ice *something* soon and my brain won’t accept that the tank would also be a suitable option for good damage

 

tanks are such a good AT thesedays, i agree with you that people are unaware however. i see a lot of outdated trends promoted 

I concur with this thinking.   Having played CoH at its inception,  coming back it takes a bit to get out of the mindset the days of being a meat shield, running around Perez Park and taunting half the map are gone.  We get to bring the pain with the brawn!

Edited May 19, 2023 by Owenknowone

[Hyperstrike]

5 hours ago, ZemX said:

 

 

Laughs in 100% Health...

[MoonSheep]

13 hours ago, ZemX said:

 

The really great thing Ston has done in that thread is post all the builds, so I would definitely download and compare his Ice Melee builds to whatever you're considering to see if it's even close to what you were thinking.  Without leaning as heavily into procs as he has, I don't think you will see the same relationship between Scrappers, Brutes, and Tankers as in his data.

 

And side note to Ice Melee + Ice Armor... I know that Ice Melee is fantastic on Stalkers and I've heard Ice Armor is as well.  No doubt you wouldn't see them measuring up on AoE to others but they will outclass any of the other melee ATs with Ice Melee for Single Target damage thanks to having Greater Ice Sword swapped for Assassin Strike.

 

i made an elec/shield stalker for this same reason. i think my choice is between scrapper and stalker at the moment, both good versions of the combination

 

will make both on test and see which i prefer

[Hyperstrike]

1 hour ago, MoonSheep said:

 

i made an elec/shield stalker for this same reason. i think my choice is between scrapper and stalker at the moment, both good versions of the combination

 

will make both on test and see which i prefer

The Scrapper should do more damage overall and be more durable.

The Stalker will have a higher damage burst from AS.

[ClawsandEffect]

7 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

The Scrapper should do more damage overall and be more durable.

The Stalker will have a higher damage burst from AS.

And if I recall correctly Lightning Rod and Shield Charge both will not break Hide. 

[ZemX]

22 hours ago, ClawsandEffect said:

And if I recall correctly Lightning Rod and Shield Charge both will not break Hide. 

 

This gets mentioned a lot like it's a benefit, but it isn't.   They don't break Hide AND they don't crit.  Hence there is no reason to use them from Hide and some reason not to.   Even though they don't break Hide, they aggro and that means you are risking an enemy breaking Hide for you.   Good defense makes it a low risk, but there's no reason to take any risk since there's no benefit to either of these attacks from Hide.  You're better off moving into the spawn Hidden and leading with an attack that can crit.  Follow it up with LR or SC then at point blank range.  Same damage.  Less risk.   

[ClawsandEffect]

34 minutes ago, ZemX said:

 

This gets mentioned a lot like it's a benefit, but it isn't.   They don't break Hide AND they don't crit.  Hence there is no reason to use them from Hide and some reason not to.   Even though they don't break Hide, they aggro and that means you are risking an enemy breaking Hide for you.   Good defense makes it a low risk, but there's no reason to take any risk since there's no benefit to either of these attacks from Hide.  You're better off moving into the spawn Hidden and leading with an attack that can crit.  Follow it up with LR or SC then at point blank range.  Same damage.  Less risk.   

 

Gonna have to disagree on Shield Charge at least. Not breaking Hide means you can knock the spawn down and follow it up with an AoE that will crit, assuming your primary has one. 

[ZemX]

6 hours ago, ClawsandEffect said:

Gonna have to disagree on Shield Charge at least. Not breaking Hide means you can knock the spawn down and follow it up with an AoE that will crit, assuming your primary has one. 

 

Leading with the AoE and following with Shield Charge does the same damage except there's no chance of spoiling Hide.  

 

It's less fun, admittedly, not zooming in and knocking em down as an opener.  Always liked that part.

[MoonSheep]

On 5/20/2023 at 10:02 AM, Hyperstrike said:

The Scrapper should do more damage overall and be more durable.

The Stalker will have a higher damage burst from AS.

 

i’m really unsure which would have higher damage. i think the burst damage aspect from stalkers is also a bit outdated, having quick AS makes it part of a high damage attack chain for sustained ST damage output. controllable crits through the chance to hide proc also adds a fun dimension

 

perma hoarfrost on either will be nice. will i miss not having icicles on the stalker? will have to find out

[ZemX]

8 hours ago, MoonSheep said:

i think the burst damage aspect from stalkers is also a bit outdated

 

Depends.  On nearly every PuG I am on when I am not on a Stalker, the bosses are always the last ones left standing.  When I do play a Stalker, I try to target bosses first, because clearly team AoE is killing everything else.  You can do that same with a Scrapper, but the Stalker has that guaranteed BU+crit for whatever their biggest-hitter is next to AS.  Then it's not long before you can quick-AS that boss and at that point its probably done.  Burst is useful when the fight is short.  Ston's pylon compilation shows Stalkers and Scrappers just about dead even against those big bags of HP though.  

 

From there it's really just a question what type of situation you'll be in.  Soloing, there's little question that Scrappers with taunt auras will easily outperform Stalkers on clear times... when clearing a whole map at x8 is the goal anyway.  For most sets, they also have more AoE than the comparable Stalker.

 

I play a Stalker for team boss-killer and speed/stealth soloist.  That's about it.

[honoroit]

so what is the story.  im building out a shield/stone, which is awesome..

 and have skipped taunt this far. Ive 1x power pick left, and its taunt or tactics.

 

a year or so back id tried to make taunt effective, and ended up going with provoke as well, to get enough mob grab.

 

is it really only 5 mobs? or is it like punch-voked, a la contageous confusion spread like.

 

taunt enh seem to increase the time of taunt, as opposed to a threat table as you might be used to in other mmo.

 

problem: it doesnt work for any amount of time.  the auras are better for that but they are very short ranged.

 

im solving for this with shield charge and leap attack (which is very good, but gets a bad rep for reasons i dont understand)... i.e. move to the problem, and the aggro tends to switch to you very quickly.

 

so is taunt needed, rather is it practical to take and six slot the thing?

 

problem: theres too many targets, it captures action time, 5 is too low.

 

so i havent taken it, and dont think i will.  seems normal these days to NOT take it, even if primarily switching about targets, being hardy enough to herd, watching for strays... and for me teleporting to them, or using the quite ample cc of shield/stone/earth.

[Nyghtmaire]

3 hours ago, honoroit said:

so is taunt needed, rather is it practical to take and six slot the thing?

I’ll give this a stab. Taunt is not *needed* but it does some useful things. My preferred use is to taunt mobs who are staying out of melee range (and my taunt aura), slotting or blasting at range. Taunt reduces the mobs’ range, forcing them to run to you and moving them onto the threat table. Second use is to snap threat to you from a mob attacking a squishy teammate. You’re correct about the small group number and value of punchvoke/auras. A useful way to think about it is a control power- moving mobs from far away to nearby when you already have most of the group already attending to you. Not an early use power. More something to toss out when most (but not everyone) is already focused on you. 
 

3 hours ago, honoroit said:

problem: theres too many targets, it captures action time, 5 is too low.

If there are more than 5 targeting you, better to hop over — dragging what is still pasted to you on your threat table. So, more useful for a small group that just wants to shoot you instead of punching you.
 

For slotting, depends. Base slot is more than fine. Decent mule for Mocking Beratement if you’re building for typed defenses, recharge, and S/L resists. Shield builds positional defense so there are probably better powers to 6-slot.

 

3 hours ago, honoroit said:

im solving for this with shield charge and leap attack (which is very good, but gets a bad rep for reasons i dont understand)

Not a terrible power! But not great as the recharge is so long (120 seconds), damage is low, and while it take a FFB proc, it doesn’t give me in the way of functional global recharge, instead competing with the lock out time for other FFB procs from your stone powers.

 

Rule of Cool though. If it makes your character cooler to you, it’s the perfect power for your needs. 
 

As an alternative for bouncing around to multiple groups, try combat teleport. Can use multiple times per engagement, and opens up the teleport power pool if you’re inclined to work towards Fold Space (excellent tanking power). While it doesn’t do damage, mobs will now be in your Against All Odds aura.

[honoroit]

4 hours ago, Nyghtmaire said:

My preferred use is to taunt mobs who are staying out of melee range (and my taunt aura),

 

forgot about the range reduce, thats useful, but then target caps come into play, and another mob can switch off you nearby... then your taunt aura will regrab them, then the approaching mob goes to another player?

 

ive built hasten and 5x lotg and pre 50 sets with sparing force feedbacks, so shield charge is under 30s, and spring attack about 40 right now.  ive got them bound powexec_location target, so it works as if a taunt would.

 

combat teleport might work as a final power to give me more hoppability similarly.

[ZemX]

4 hours ago, honoroit said:

forgot about the range reduce, thats useful, but then target caps come into play, and another mob can switch off you nearby... then your taunt aura will regrab them, then the approaching mob goes to another player?

 

This will be the case no matter how you grab aggro.  Exceeding the limit can cause other mobs to fall off you and attack someone else.  If you leave the pack to go punch-voke or aura taunt some other group, you may lose some of the ones you had already.  Taunt is going to cost you just under 2 seconds to range taunt up to 5 mobs, autohit, in a 22.5 ft radius AoE.  And it will be ready to do that again in another 3-4 seconds probably with a single recharge IO and your global recharge and needing no other slotting at all.

 

I would honestly give up a travel power before I gave up Taunt on my tanks, but that's me.  It's certainly possible to control aggro without it.  Just less well.  In my experience, there is always loose aggro running around and grabbing it is faster, easier, and more reliable with Taunt than leaving a nicely packed bunch of enemies you are already showing the AoE love to try and corral all that wandering stuff up close and personal.  It's also a heck of a lot nicer when your friendly neighborhood controller and unhelfully glued all the enemies to the floor such that they CAN'T reach you.  Two seconds out of some attack rotation I am doing to refresh a ranged taunt is a lot less lost DPS than me hopping or BAMFing around refreshing shorter duration aura/punch-voke taunts.

[honoroit]

1 hour ago, ZemX said:

Taunt is going to cost you just under 2 seconds to range taunt up to 5 mobs, autohit, in a 22.5 ft radius AoE. 

 

got combat teleport. 

 

100y base range, a slot for kb protect to suppliment my press only status protection... 

 

and its 0 action time. bind that to 《/bind ` powexec_location target Combat Teleport》--- up to 3 hops on the charges, theyre instantly in range. i can grab a loose and hop back, or heard on things like itf.  if theyve to be disabled, quicksand, salt crystals, and/or staligmites helps.

 

between shield charge, spring attack (both aoe, and force feedback good ones), and these new 3 hops woth combat tp - i dont need taunt.

 

if taunt were 10/16 thatd be like a full wipe of target currency. the problem is the cap  and expection when mixed with loose mob in high count situations.

 

ive done what i think most wise.

 

-- honoroit, the valiant

Edited May 28, 2023 by honoroit

[PLVRIZR]

7 hours ago, ZemX said:

It's certainly possible to control aggro without it.  Just less well.  

 

I agree with everything Zem said, but this, especially.  Just try to aggro "Romulus the Runner", in the ITF, without it.  I one slot it with the Perfect Zinger psi damage proc, because without a recharge IO, it's more like 4-5 seconds, and I can't remember a time I needed it faster than that...  Don't really need the damage, I just think it's hilarious, especially if it's the kill shot.

[ZemX]

On 5/28/2023 at 9:57 AM, honoroit said:

got combat teleport. 

 

100y base range, a slot for kb protect to suppliment my press only status protection... 

 

and its 0 action time.

 

I don't think this is true.  Everything has a time cost.  Per CoD, Combat Teleport is just slightly under 1 second ArcanaTime.  That's fast, to be sure, but BAMFing out, doing something to taunt those enemies, and then zipping back will still cost you at least 3 seconds, if not more.  It might feel fast, but it isn't nearly as fast as activating a single 2 sec animation power.   There's also nothing else you have access to that's as powerful a taunt.   Punch-voke and auras are ~14-15 sec duration.   Taunt is 41 sec.   And with taunt effects, weirdly, duration also affects how strongly the taunt magnifies your threat for that mob.  A single pulse of a taunt aura is relatively weak if you don't follow it up with attacks.

 

Re: the 5 target cap: While obviously a larger target cap is always better, I've rarely had a case where it mattered in practice.  The aggro limit is 17.  I typically open with whatever largest AoE I have available aimed at the largest concentration of enemies in a spawn that I can hit at once.  After that, there usually aren't more than a handful of enemies I can add to the total and the odds they will all be conveniently bunched together some distance away such that a 10 cap or 16 cap Taunt could hit them all at once is even less likely.   Loose arrangements of mobs such as you have in Praetorian lab/underground maps can't be solved by Taunt OR by CT really.  You can run around aggroing mobs but those particular mob types (Clockwork, Resistance, and Police) have so many long range attacks even Taunt doesn't convince them to close the distance with you.  Fold Space or herding to a corner is about the only option there if you want a nice tidy bunched up group.   And few teams have the patience for herding anymore.

 

I would encourage you to take Taunt on a test drive.  We can natter on at you extolling its virtues from our own tanking experience, but judging for yourself is always best.   It is most definitely not a need, but it does have value.  Whether that value exceeds another choice (e.g. Tactics in your case, it sounds like) is not something anyone else can tell you.  And respecs are cheap and plentiful.  The key here is you're not giving up CT or using your AoEs to taunt either.  You do all that stuff same as before.  Taunt is just one more tool in the toolbox to be used when the situation calls for it.  I often find it useful for grabbing stray enemies running around on the outskirts of the fight.  Ranged attacks are good for that too, don't forget.  They just aren't as reliable since they don't autohit and they don't range debuff.    But I've even used Nemesis Staff if I have multiple runners on different sides of a fight.  Taunt one.  Nem Staff the other.  On a tanker, even a single target attack is a 10ft radius, 5 target taunt around the main target.  One of my tankers has laser beam eyes.  A very mediocre ranged attack but I love the visual and it communicates to the team that I am aware of the strays and trying to control them.  Obviously teleporting all over the battlefield does that too, so if you're not overly concerned with the time that is taking or with the mobs that might be chasing you around, then yeah, you might never use Taunt.