New difficulty setting: Beefier enemies with larger teams

[Vanden]

Sometimes you get an idea in your head, and you just gotta get it out there!

 

So here's the rub: enemies are dying too fast. I don't mean too fast to challenge players, I mean too fast for it to feel like you're really playing the game. In the current high-level team environment, any power that takes longer than 2 seconds to use will probably just hit a corpse on a team. Two seconds is NOT a long time, yet in a typical high-level team it's too slow to be competitive. In an attempt to counteract this, I'm proposing an additional difficulty setting that should both bring some lost challenge back, while simultaneously increasing the value of certain archetypes in teams. Details are as follows:

 

• This new setting toggles On/Off independently of other settings, just like the Bosses/No Bosses and Archvillains/Elite Bosses options
• Every additional teammate or Team Size setting above x1 reduces the damage of AoE attacks by roughly 8.6%. With a full team or at x8, AoE attacks do 40% of normal damage.
• Single-target attacks do normal damage.
• AoE attacks that require a target do full damage to the primary target.
• This setting is forced on for most TFs, with the exception of issue 0-2 TFs, because of their length.
• This setting is forced off for League content.
• Certain archetypes have partial exceptions to the AoE damage reduction:
  • Brutes, Defenders, Kheldians, and VEATs only suffer 2/3rds the damage reduction for their AoEs. At x8, their AoEs do 60% damage.
  • Scrappers, Stalkers, Corruptors, and VEATs suffer no reduction to the critical hit portion of their damage from AoE attacks.
• Yes, there would be increased XP/Inf/Drop rewards to compensate for the overall slower clear speeds.

 

Under this new difficulty setting, single-target specialists have more value in teams, as do any sets that shine in longer engagements. It also restores to Brutes some of the luster they lost with the Tanker AoE buffs, and gives extra incentive to invite some lower-damage ATs to a team.

Edited May 22, 2023 by Vanden

[biostem]

You lost me at this setting being "forced-on".  If you want this as an option, which would be off by default, then fine. Also, punishing AoEs, specifically, seems kind of punitive.

[Vanden]

*shrug* Bosses and Archvillains are forced on in TFs, I don't see this as much different. TFs are supposed to be tougher than normal missions.

[Spaghetti Betty]

You want to introduce a feature that nerfs everybody on the team except Stalkers and Archery Blasters?

 

Genius!

[Ruin Mage]

This is just not it.

It would kill any desire to team and reads like a horrible 'I like everyone suffering' suggestion. I'm sure that wasn't the intent, but that's how it comes off.

[Parabola]

Years ago I suggested something similar. Buffs to enemies that scaled to the number of players in the team (rather than the x setting). This was before hard mode appeared on the scene and I still prefer my solution. It didn't go down very well with the masses if I remember correctly though!

 

I wanted to link it to buffs to the drop rates of recipes and salvage when in larger teams to close the gap with how lucrative it is to solo against hordes of mooks.

[biostem]

Might as well just scale all enemies up 1 tier, then, instead of gimping only 1 category of powers;  Minions -> LTs, LTs -> Bosses, Bosses -> EBs, EBs -> AVs.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

heres a different crazy suggestion that would takes tons of time and effort to impliment. More balanced mob types (that would be healers/buffers/debuffers) for every villian group. 

[Vanden]

3 hours ago, biostem said:

Might as well just scale all enemies up 1 tier, then, instead of gimping only 1 category of powers;  Minions -> LTs, LTs -> Bosses, Bosses -> EBs, EBs -> AVs.

 

This is an idea that I'm surprised hasn't been floated more often. It is more punitive than this suggestion, though; the HP increase between tiers is comparable to this suggestion at around 6 or 7 team members, but there's no scaling for smaller teams besides there being fewer mobs, all ATs and powers are equally affected rather than having the various provisos this idea has, and naturally with higher ranks the enemies' powers get stronger and more accurate, instead of strictly being an enemy survivability buff. There's also the issue of control effects; with every Lt becoming a boss and every Boss becoming an EB, control effects become severely weaker, to a much greater degree than anything else. That is, in fact, the exact issue that lead to me thinking up this idea as an alternative.

Edited May 23, 2023 by Vanden

[SeraphimKensai]

They have a difficulty setting that you can use for TFs to buff enemies, debuff players, and make enhancements useless. Try all that on a +4x8 TF with say a team of 5. Have fun.

[Akisan]

3 hours ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

You want to introduce a feature that nerfs everybody on the team except Stalkers and Archery Blasters?

 

Genius!

 

Archery/Ice/Fire blaster here.  Yes please to this!  One of the reasons I don't team much above 45 is that Blazing Arrow pretty much only hits living targets if I initiate combat with it, and even then, not a guarantee.  (Another reason is that I have 2 Holds in my build, and control powers are much less valuable if spawns instantly vanish).

 

An alternate option here, which has also been asked for - Disable non-Alpha Incarnate powers in non-Incarnate content. At the very least, multiply cooldowns by 10x.  People getting extra "panic buttons" for regular content is one thing, but everyone having a nuke up every 90s is very bad for game balance.  Ditto for having access to effectively infinite endurance & recharge (IOs + Ageless Destiny) - these undermine the point of having light, inexpensive, fast-recharging powers in our powersets.

 

 

2 hours ago, biostem said:

Might as well just scale all enemies up 1 tier, then, instead of gimping only 1 category of powers;  Minions -> LTs, LTs -> Bosses, Bosses -> EBs, EBs -> AVs.

 

One of my thoughts for increased optional difficulty was "Swarm Mode".  The entire teams' +L difficulty is averaged, and the xS difficulty is summed (allowing for up to +4x64 missions), with enemies combined per usual spawn rules so no spawn is bigger than 48 enemies. (And yes, at team sizes above x8, multiple special enemies are allowed to spawn, so a +2x29 Malta spawn could have up to 4 Sappers).

 

 

As an aside, since we're already discussing indirectly buffing my build, can we also remove a lot of the Lethal resistance from certain groups?  Like 45+ Crey?  I swear, it feels like every single enemy in that faction has 50% lethal resistance...

[Rudra]

43 minutes ago, Akisan said:

Disable non-Alpha Incarnate powers in non-Incarnate content.

I'm all for this.

[Zect]

27 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I'm all for this.

Disable the level shift from alpha too and we have a deal.

 

The level shift is honestly a bigger deal than the rest of the powers. +1 CR in this game is huuuuge.

[Zect]

I agree with the reasons behind the suggestion (things dying too fast) but really, there is no reason to give soloists a free pass. In fact, it only makes sense to me that if you do want to mow down hordes of enemies that you join a team to do so.

 

The player dps ceiling needs to be severely lowered especially at endgame. That’s all there is to it. 

 

[Akisan]

6 minutes ago, Zect said:

<snip> there is no reason to give soloists a free pass.

 

In @Vanden's suggestion, they don't get a free pass either - it's keyed to the x<whatever> of the mission, not the number of players in the instance.  It does give ST-heavy, assassin-style builds like mine a (mostly) free pass though.

[nihilii]

Extending Hard Mode settings to most TFs seems like a better way to accomplish the same idea.

 

But to address specifics anyway, decreasing individual performance when you add teammates is Bad Design.

 

Many other MMOs do that, and they tend to be extremely toxic. CoH went out of their way to ensure adding teammates is almost always a boon (i.e. by giving you a XP multiplier boost on teams), and the game has had one of the nicer playerbases around.

 

Coincidence? I think not (really!). Mechanism design necessarily influences behavior. If you build a system where cooperation is frictionless and only beneficial, people are more inclined to cooperate. But if you start to penalize players for inviting underperformers, doors get closed and ingroup/outgroup dynamics grow stronger.

 

Edited May 23, 2023 by nihilii

[Parabola]

7 hours ago, Zect said:

Disable the level shift from alpha too and we have a deal.

 

The level shift is honestly a bigger deal than the rest of the powers. +1 CR in this game is huuuuge.

Quite. I've never understood the rationale for the incarnate shifts as a whole ('hey let's give our players cool new powers to use and completely hobble the opposition at the same time... Everyone will feel doubly super'). I certainly can't understand why the alpha shift has been allowed to apply in regular content. In my opinion it is nothing but detrimental to the game.

 

The situation we now have is a bit like that in games like Skyrim where the world levels with you so where you once fought wolves you now fight bears, but they've added a system where once you get the 'ultimate sword of bear killing' the world is forcibly deleveled and you only face wolves again. It's stupid.

[JasperStone]

Ran with someone for a couple of days where everything was +6 to us.

 

Forget to ask how that was done.

 

[Uun]

49 minutes ago, JasperStone said:

Ran with someone for a couple of days where everything was +6 to us.

 

Forget to ask how that was done.

The signature TFs/SFs have a minimum level. If the leader is -2 below that level and sets their notoriety to +4, you get +6/+7 foes. For example, Manticore has a minimum level of 35. If the leader is lvl 33, at +4 you would get lvl 39/40 foes.

[JasperStone]

1 hour ago, Uun said:

The signature TFs/SFs have a minimum level. If the leader is -2 below that level and sets their notoriety to +4, you get +6/+7 foes. For example, Manticore has a minimum level of 35. If the leader is lvl 33, at +4 you would get lvl 39/40 foes.

Thanks for explaining.

This was hard and yet the overall challenge was enjoyable.

[Forsetti]

I see the reason for the suggestion, but do not agree with the proposed execution.

 

While I am all for additional challenge, I am not for additional challenge at the expense of an Arch type or two; instead I prefer an even across all classes type of challenge.

 

So how to work this issue?

 

I had been giving some thought at the difficulty level you can choose your missions at (-1 to +4) and the variance in group sizes based on team size (1 to 8).

 

It occurs to me as I developed my character, I have a period I go with out enhancements, then I have single enhancements, then I have cheap IOs, then I have very expensive IOs.

 

So I would think difficulty -1 and 0, are mobs without any enhancements, very much plain as they are now.

At difficulty 1 and 2 The mobs are the same as the previous but are 15% better across the board (3 singles stacked, and not worrying about diminishing returns

At difficulty 3 (IO plain time) all mobs are at 25% better across the board to simulate IO set benefits

At difficulty 4 (optimized) all mobs are at 35% better across the board to simulate optimized IO set benefits

 

Then when looking at numbers in a team

 

1      1 boss, 2 LT, 4 minions for standard team and end mission boss (no AVs in TF, they are just a boss)

2-3   2 boss, 4 LT, 8 minions for standard team and end mission boss (no AVs in TF, they are just a boss)

4-5   1 EB, 2 bosses, 4LT, 8 Minions for standard team and end mission boss ( 1 AVs plus standard team in TF)

6-7   2 EBs, 4 bosses, 8 LTS, 16 Minions for standard team and end mission boss (1 AV plus standard team in TF)

8       1 AV, 2 EBs, 4 Bosses, 8 LTS, 16 minions for standard team and end mission boss (2 AV plus standard team in TF)

 

Just a suggestion, which may give across the board notable variations in difficulty

 

Regards

 

 

[Seed22]

On 5/22/2023 at 10:07 PM, Zect said:

I agree with the reasons behind the suggestion (things dying too fast) but really, there is no reason to give soloists a free pass. In fact, it only makes sense to me that if you do want to mow down hordes of enemies that you join a team to do so.

 

The player dps ceiling needs to be severely lowered especially at endgame. That’s all there is to it. 

 

Every time I see post like these I remember it's time to look for a new MMO. Anyone got any suggestions?(Not kidding)

 

Let me address this though, if I were forced to PUG with some of the interesting characters(being nice) on Excel I'd delete my account. PUG'ing should never be forced, and solo'ing +1/x8 isn't OP. I always wonder how suggestions like these leave the heads of those making them, tbh.

 

If you're actually competent at building and have some common sense you should be able to, and be rewarded for, solo'ing up to +4/x8 . Granted I'm not the greatest at building and/or don't feel like slogging through that on my few toons who can handle it, but still.

 

I'll give a hot take: This game is not even remotely good enough to survive a suggestion like this, and that's coming from someone who played since i6.  I doubt people want to waste time putting together a PUG here for every piece of content on +1/x8 (using this as an example difficulty), I know I wouldn't even entertain the thought.

Edited May 25, 2023 by Seed22

[Akisan]

18 hours ago, Seed22 said:

Let me address this though, if I were forced to PUG with some of the interesting characters(being nice) on Excel I'd delete my account. PUG'ing should never be forced, and solo'ing +1/x8 isn't OP. I always wonder how suggestions like these leave the heads of those making them, tbh.

 

Agreed, PUG'ing shouldn't be forced, and +1x8 isn't OP for a well built character.  The trouble is, the game's balanced around low end characters - someone using just SOs, no P2W, and no incarnates.  While this means that just about any character can solo at +0x1, it does mean that when you stack 6-8 high-end, trigger-happy incarnates there isn't much challenge left...

 

My take on it is this - back on Live, when Incarnates were fairly uncommon (subscription only, plus the time to run the iTrials), and IO'd out builds cost hundreds of billions of inf (so, also quite rare), this imbalance wasn't as noticeable.  The occasional incarnate joining a team usually made the team's run much easier, and if, by some miracle, you got 3 or more, you'd chew through almost anything with ease.  Now though, since *everyone* can easily T4 their incarnate powers, and fully-kitted, "dream build" IOs are readily (and pretty cheaply) available, 50+ teams tend to have 3+ incarnates all the time.  There's really not much to burning through missions any more, and some of us would like the option to preserve that difficulty while we team (because this is an MMO, not a solo game).

 

 

18 hours ago, Seed22 said:

Every time I see post like these I remember it's time to look for a new MMO. Anyone got any suggestions?(Not kidding)

 

I tried a few, while CoH was gone: 

• Warframe & Destiny looked like they could be good, but I never got into them (doesn't help that I really dislike shooters). 
• DDO was fun for a while, but power creep got involved in a serious way, and the specialized builds I liked to play stopped being relevant (that and the Spell Resistance on the Epic critters is... not enjoyable). 
• Tera was enjoyable to play, but while leveling I got the distinct feeling that builds in that game are very cut and dry.  Didn't stick with it long enough to find out if that holds true at the level cap. 
• I also keep drifting back into Mabinogi occasionally, but that's somewhere between an MMO and a Fantasy-Life kinda world.
• And if you're into ARPGs, I'd recommend Path of Exile.  It's got a lot of mechanics though, so you'll have to do quite a lot of tinkering & researching to make your own builds. (There are quite a few good builds online though)

And yeah, I do swap between CoH and other games, but there's something about how CoH flows that keeps me coming back to it.