Shield Defense for Sentinels!

[biostem]

As the topic title says, I'd love to be able to take shield defense as a sentinel.  A few restrictions would probably have to be put in place, (perhaps not allowing dual pistols, assault rifle, beam rifle, or archery), but otherwise there really shouldn't be any issues - Tankers, Scrappers, and Stalkers can get various blast attacks via their APPs/PPPs, so that precedent already exists.  The set would probably have to be modified, like others, though - as much as I'd love to keep shield charge, this would probably be dropped in favor of some sort of end recovery power, and I could see grant cover or phalanx fighting getting replaced with some absorb click power.  Your thoughts?

[Rigged]

I suspect the justification for leaving off Shield Defense from Sentinels was likely animation-related. I can't imagine any mechanical or balance reason, barring AAO normally needing to be in melee range to get bonuses. Why not just give a fixed damage buff for sentinels instead, the way Invincibility works for Sentinels and Stalkers?

 

If this is indeed the case, could we possibly explore using a different set of animations? Like, maybe Force-field Defense, where instead of shield charge you have "Overload Shield"? We could use the Force Field animations the way Thermal used Fiery Aura animations. This is just a suggestion; we could just as easily pick something else like Sonic Defense and use the Sonic Resonance animations.

 

We could even proliferate this set so people could use the Shield Defense mechanics without actually having to carry a shield, or to use it in melee powersets that do not allow you to pick Shield Defense, like Titan Weapons and Staff Melee.

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Rigged said:

I suspect the justification for leaving off Shield Defense from Sentinels was likely animation-related.

I disagree.  Tankers, Scrappers, and Stalkers get blast powers from their APPs and PPPs, so that's a non-issue.  Against all odds could be reworked to be a click power with a longer range, but fewer targets, like how dark armor was modified for Sentinels.  Just to be absolutely clear, I specifically want to have my character wield a physical shield.  Sentinels can already access energy aura, which is basically what you suggested... 

[Major_Decoy]

I was able to create a Shield Defense/Dual Blades tanker on test when they changed the power attainment levels and the weirdest animation is Blinding Feint.

[Rudra]

I thought Dual Blades and Shield Defense were mutually exclusive.

[Major_Decoy]

21 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I thought Dual Blades and Shield Defense were mutually exclusive.

They are, but the way it was done with shield defense for tankers was "If you take Shield Defense you can't take Nimble Slash" So when they opened up Power Slice at level 1, there was a period on test when you could make a Shield Defense/Dual Blades character. You could only ever take one of the first two tanker powers, so you either miss out on Ranged and AoE defense or Melee Defense and Smashing/Lethal resistance, but it was possible to create them and see what the animations were like. Blinding Feint looks a bit like a left handed Soul Drain, you kind of bring your shield arm in and then get a build-up flash. If I knew how to screen record, I'd try to get a video sample of the animations.

[Greycat]

On 5/31/2023 at 8:34 PM, biostem said:

I disagree.  Tankers, Scrappers, and Stalkers get blast powers from their APPs and PPPs, so that's a non-issue.

 

Eh, I'd say it is an issue. There are several attacks that use both hands - Thunderous Blast and .. .what is it, flares that's the two handed effect from Fire, that's shared with Dark and several other sets? Two handed isn't an issue for *all* two-handed-animation attacks, granted (most of the PBAOE nukes, I believe, mostly have you pointing your arms at the ground) but there are quite a few blasts that would probably look distinctly odd. Most of the "hold my arm and aim" snipes would look odd, but I *believe* most have a single-arm animation you'd probably just be forced into.

 

I'd think most of Assault Rifle and Beam Rifle would look strange, so they'd probably get the set-exclusivity setup.

 

I'm not against it, but... yeah, I could see animation being an issue.

[Starforge]

On 5/31/2023 at 7:07 PM, biostem said:

As the topic title says, I'd love to be able to take shield defense as a sentinel.  A few restrictions would probably have to be put in place, (perhaps not allowing dual pistols, assault rifle, beam rifle, or archery), but otherwise there really shouldn't be any issues - Tankers, Scrappers, and Stalkers can get various blast attacks via their APPs/PPPs, so that precedent already exists.  The set would probably have to be modified, like others, though - as much as I'd love to keep shield charge, this would probably be dropped in favor of some sort of end recovery power, and I could see grant cover or phalanx fighting getting replaced with some absorb click power.  Your thoughts?

I’d love Shield Defense as a Sentinel option, provided all the animation issues were able to be fully worked out.

[FupDup]

Every time this comes up, I have to shake my head and marvel at just how incredibly janky shield's animations were handled. I admit I don't know much about goes on "under the hood" in this game, but I would think that the live devs could've handled shields as an extension of the left glove costume piece where it just gets mounted onto the side of your wrist so both hands are free to hold stuff. 

 

Like seriously, look at this cheater over here with his AR/Shield Sentinel: 

 

[kelika2]

AaO is the biggest reason to play shield def

how would that work without stepping on bio or fire?

 

[FupDup]

16 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

AaO is the biggest reason to play shield def

how would that work without stepping on bio or fire?

 

This isn't an issue on any of the other 4 armored ATs, so I don't think it would really present a problem for Sents either. 

 

Judging by how Willpower got changed for Sents, I'm guessing that the Sent version of Shield would just give a flat bonus instead of scaling based on nearby enemies. Or possibly get replaced with something else like a sustain power (since Sent armors that lack sustain on other ATs are always given some).

 

Bio is definitely not in any danger here because of just how bonkers of a set it is, and Fire is just kinda weird since it has less damage than Bio with less armor too...

[biostem]

7 hours ago, kelika2 said:

AaO is the biggest reason to play shield def

how would that work without stepping on bio or fire?

It would work similar to how dark armor got obscure sustenance instead of dark regeneration or how bio armor got parasitic leech instead of parasitic aura.  Heck, those weren't the only changes - compare death shroud and tenebrous regeneration or genetic contamination vs genomic evolution.  My guess is it would be turned into a click power with a larger radius, (or a cone), but a lower target cap, or an auto power with a flat bonus.

[Wavicle]

I'm pretty sure the real reason is they are not going to make a Sentinel secondary that gets another nuke.

So IF they gave Shields to Sentinels you would most likely LOSE SHIELD CHARGE.

Do you still want it?

[Major_Decoy]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

I'm pretty sure the real reason is they are not going to make a Sentinel secondary that gets another nuke.

So IF they gave Shields to Sentinels you would most likely LOSE SHIELD CHARGE.

Do you still want it?

Yeah. I think Shield Charge would probably be replaced with an Endurance power like Durability. It'd be cool.

[Major_Decoy]

Alternatively, they might take the Stalker set (which loses Phalanx fighting) put [Durability] in place of Hide, and turn Shield Charge into Shield Press, which you use to knock enemies out of melee range.

[Wavicle]

I liked the idea of “Shield Bash”, a single target, or maybe slight splash zone, Teleport attack. Shield Charge but small.

[Rudra]

Wouldn't a shield bash just be a use in place ability?

[Wavicle]

Just now, Rudra said:

Wouldn't a shield bash just be a use in place ability?

Doesn’t have to be.

[Rudra]

I'll leave it at I disagree because that would still be a charge, and move on.

[biostem]

Just remove the teleport effect, change it into a short range, but wide cone, and change the knockdown into knockback, and you've got yourself an effective "get out of my face" or area denial power that still fits with the theme...

[twozerofoxtrot]

SC on melee ATs is really important for a host of reasons that don't carry as much weight with Sentinels.

 

I agree that adjusting it to be a sustainment tool (give it the Rebuild DNA treatment) would be the optimal fix.

 

On the flip side, powers like Phalanx Fighting and Grant Cover would help /SD sents stand out as backline battle buddies, encouraging positioning close to the ranged support players.

[Major_Decoy]

9 minutes ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

SC on melee ATs is really important for a host of reasons that don't carry as much weight with Sentinels.

 

I agree that adjusting it to be a sustainment tool (give it the Rebuild DNA treatment) would be the optimal fix.

 

On the flip side, powers like Phalanx Fighting and Grant Cover would help /SD sents stand out as backline battle buddies, encouraging positioning close to the ranged support players.

I agree that I'd like to keep Phalanx Fighting if possible (losing the defense works for Stalkers because hide is better), but it'd be nice if the range was more than eight feet.

[kelika2]

9 hours ago, Wavicle said:

I'm pretty sure the real reason is they are not going to make a Sentinel secondary that gets another nuke.

So IF they gave Shields to Sentinels you would most likely LOSE SHIELD CHARGE.

Do you still want it?

Throw shield.  one of those new fancy chain attacks.

[Wavicle]

5 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

Throw shield.  one of those new fancy chain attacks.

I like the idea, but it seems like it belongs in a Sentinel Primary not a secondary. I don’t think we’re ever going to get a Shield attack set.

[Cobalt Arachne]

Everyone who's saying this won't happen because of animations is spot on.

The Shield animation sequencers are one of the hackiest in the entire game, a game which is already notoriously clunky...

Adding new animations to it is extremely unlikely given how difficult it is for us to make new animations currently, on-top of we would be adding them to arguably one of the most volatile animation control systems in the game.

The majority of complex animation-related enhancements or features fall under "technically possible, but is too difficult/time consuming with the tools available to our team for us to be able to realistically commit to."

Plugins and scripts need to be written to add full compatibility to modern 3D/animation tools that allow them to output to City of Heroes' unique data formats if any major ground-breaking animation work is to occur.