Please explain how the market works

[Col. Kernel]

I thought the market was supposed to give the lowest priced item to the highest bid for that item, with both offerings and bids kept secret until there is a winner, then only the winning bid is revealed.

[Yomo Kimyata]

 

 

[UltraAlt]

7 hours ago, Col. Kernel said:

I thought the market was supposed to give the lowest priced item to the highest bid for that item, with both offerings and bids kept secret until there is a winner, then only the winning bid is revealed.

 

It's all almost instantaneous. (but there is market lag)

 

The person that is first to post a bid over what a player posted an item for sale for that item gets that item.

Bids remain active until they are filled, so if someone posts an item below a bid on the market then the highest bid on the market gets that item.

 

There are 100 bids on the market for item A. There are bunch bunch of item A that on sale at the same time.

In this case, none of the bids on the market are above the sale price that players have set on item A.

Items stay for sale on the market until they are removed or someone bids at or above the price of the posted item.

 

An item usually sells for 1000. Most players just bid 1 for it.  one player bids 1000 for it. A player posts 2 of that item for 1.

In this case, one of the items sells for 1000 and the other sells for 1.

 

An item usually sells for 1000. Most players just bid 1 for it.  one player bids 1000 for it. A player posts 2 of that item for 5.

In this case, one of the items sells for 1000 and the other sells for the next bid at or above 5 unless someone else has already listed one for 5 or if others were posted at 2,3, or 4.

 

I think that pretty much covers the variations.

 

As Yomo pointed out in the related post, the AH doesn't always display the "last 5 sales" correctly.

That being said, there are situations that happen like in my example above where things are posted for X and other (maybe a lot of) people have bid X and an items sell for much lower than it usually does ... sometimes way lower. So if you post something at too low of a price to avoid auction fees, then it may sell at that low price.

Also some items in the Auction House are seeded (given supply) of an item at some set price. What price is it? The DEVS set the price. You can try to guess what it is, but it is usually over what the item would normally sell for.

 

 

Edited June 17, 2023 by UltraAlt

[Col. Kernel]

Quote

As Yomo pointed out in the related post, the AH doesn't always display the "last 5 sales" correctly.

 

Yeah, I saw that.

 

And that explains why my bid of 7 million Inf appeared to be undercut.

 

 

[Yomo Kimyata]

3 hours ago, Col. Kernel said:

 

Yeah, I saw that.

 

And that explains why my bid of 7 million Inf appeared to be undercut.

 

 

 

Indeed!

[Col. Kernel]

20 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

 

 

So the market works exactly as I thought it did.

[Andreah]

14 hours ago, Col. Kernel said:

 

Yeah, I saw that.

 

And that explains why my bid of 7 million Inf appeared to be undercut.

 

 

When I see a set of history entries for an ATO like that , I know they're bad data entries. If you were to look at the other pieces in the same set, you would likely see the normal range of sales; in this case, generally between 6 and 8 million, sometime a little more.  It would be a rare thing to get a sale far below 6 million, and I would expect that if a player were to bid 8 million, they'd almost certainly get it to fill overnight, and a 9 million bid would likely be an insta-buy.  The bad entries have been around forever, and they're just something we learn to live with. (They look a lot like hash bucket collisions to me.)

 

If a player is keen on getting one right away, I'd put in a bid at, say, 6,000,000 and cancel it after ten second if it doesn't fill. Then re-bid at 6,100,000 and see if that fills within ten seconds. If not, cancel it, and re-bid at 6,200,000, and so on, creeping upwards until you either get it, or the next bid is too high to be worth it to you.

 

Also, keep in mind you can buy any pieces of an ATO, and three converters (worth about 200,000) will re-roll it to one of the other five. You can fill out a set pretty quickly this way, even if only one piece is up for sale at your price-point.

 

And, if you like being clever, buy the other ATO for the same AT (Malice of the Corrupter) and two converters can re-roll it into a random Scourging Blast -- use Out of Set by Category (Corrupter).

[golstat2003]

10 hours ago, Andreah said:

When I see a set of history entries for an ATO like that , I know they're bad data entries. If you were to look at the other pieces in the same set, you would likely see the normal range of sales; in this case, generally between 6 and 8 million, sometime a little more.  It would be a rare thing to get a sale far below 6 million, and I would expect that if a player were to bid 8 million, they'd almost certainly get it to fill overnight, and a 9 million bid would likely be an insta-buy.  The bad entries have been around forever, and they're just something we learn to live with. (They look a lot like hash bucket collisions to me.)

 

If a player is keen on getting one right away, I'd put in a bid at, say, 6,000,000 and cancel it after ten second if it doesn't fill. Then re-bid at 6,100,000 and see if that fills within ten seconds. If not, cancel it, and re-bid at 6,200,000, and so on, creeping upwards until you either get it, or the next bid is too high to be worth it to you.

 

Also, keep in mind you can buy any pieces of an ATO, and three converters (worth about 200,000) will re-roll it to one of the other five. You can fill out a set pretty quickly this way, even if only one piece is up for sale at your price-point.

 

And, if you like being clever, buy the other ATO for the same AT (Malice of the Corrupter) and two converters can re-roll it into a random Scourging Blast -- use Out of Set by Category (Corrupter).

 

Yeah I've had to do this with a few purples that are simply not on the market, at the times I needed them.

[Raikao]

On 6/17/2023 at 7:07 AM, UltraAlt said:

 

It's all almost instantaneous. (but there is market lag)

 

The person that is first to post a bid over what a player posted an item for sale for that item gets that item.

Bids remain active until they are filled, so if someone posts an item below a bid on the market then the highest bid on the market gets that item.

 

There are 100 bids on the market for item A. There are bunch bunch of item A that on sale at the same time.

In this case, none of the bids on the market are above the sale price that players have set on item A.

Items stay for sale on the market until they are removed or someone bids at or above the price of the posted item.

 

An item usually sells for 1000. Most players just bid 1 for it.  one player bids 1000 for it. A player posts 2 of that item for 1.

In this case, one of the items sells for 1000 and the other sells for 1.

 

An item usually sells for 1000. Most players just bid 1 for it.  one player bids 1000 for it. A player posts 2 of that item for 5.

In this case, one of the items sells for 1000 and the other sells for the next bid at or above 5 unless someone else has already listed one for 5 or if others were posted at 2,3, or 4.

 

I think that pretty much covers the variations.

 

As Yomo pointed out in the related post, the AH doesn't always display the "last 5 sales" correctly.

That being said, there are situations that happen like in my example above where things are posted for X and other (maybe a lot of) people have bid X and an items sell for much lower than it usually does ... sometimes way lower. So if you post something at too low of a price to avoid auction fees, then it may sell at that low price.

Also some items in the Auction House are seeded (given supply) of an item at some set price. What price is it? The DEVS set the price. You can try to guess what it is, but it is usually over what the item would normally sell for.

 

 

 

Hold up. So if I post an item for 1 inf, it will sell to the highest bidder? Even if that's a 14mil bid?

 

I've seen people mention putting up something for 1 inf to save on market fees. And thought this could backfire because "what if someone has a 50 inf bid on that item?". But if I "skip" those lowball bids to sell to the best offer. Shouldn't I literally sell everything at 1 inf?

 

 

[UltraAlt]

2 hours ago, Raikao said:

Hold up. So if I post an item for 1 inf, it will sell to the highest bidder? Even if that's a 14mil bid?

 

Yes. That is true.

But many of us know that people will try that in order to cheap out on the auction prices.

 

 

2 hours ago, Raikao said:

I've seen people mention putting up something for 1 inf to save on market fees. And thought this could backfire because "what if someone has a 50 inf bid on that item?".

 

exactly.

Don't be shocked if you put something up for 1 inf that usually sells for 14 million and you end up get 250 infl for it.

Just because the most recent bids are at 14 million doesn't mean that there are still 14 million bids still waiting for the product.

 

Look at the number that are for sale. Look at the number that are trying to buy. look at the price. see the dates.

Now the kicker. That information isn't always correct. 

 

Generally, the lower the number for sale, the close you should post it to the amount you want to make off the product (and include the price for posting and selling the product in your price point).

 

2 hours ago, Raikao said:

But if I "skip" those lowball bids to sell to the best offer. Shouldn't I literally sell everything at 1 inf?

 

It will always sell to the current highest bid above your posting price.

 

Posting something for 1 inf is a gamble. Is losing the amount you could make worth the amount you save on posting fees?

 

In most cases you aren't going to have hundreds of bids at 50 inf on something worth 14 million, but I wouldn't put it past some of the Ebil Marketeers.

 

Because as P. T. Barnum supposedly said "There's a sucker born every minute". - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There's_a_sucker_born_every_minute

 

Edited August 3, 2023 by UltraAlt

[AboveTheChemist]

3 hours ago, Raikao said:

I've seen people mention putting up something for 1 inf to save on market fees.

 

The market fee is determined by the final sale price, not the listing price. Assuming an item sells, the market fee is collected in two steps. The first is the listing fee, which is 5% of the listing price and non-refundable. The second is the transaction fee, which is 10% of the final sale price minus whatever was paid as the listing fee, and is only collected if the item sells. Listing items at low amounts of inf does save on listing fees, but the difference is made up at the back end when/if the items sells.

 

Assume an item sells for 1 million inf. The total market fee for that item is 100,000 inf (10% of 1,000,000 inf) regardless of the list price.

 

If that item is listed for 100 inf, the listing fee is 5 inf (5% of 100) and the transaction fee is 99,995 inf (100,000 inf - 5 inf), for a total fee of 100,000 inf.

If that item is listed for 100,000 inf, the listing fee is 5,000 inf (5% of 100,000) and the transaction fee is 95,000 inf (100,000 inf - 5,000 inf), for a total fee of 100,000 inf.

 

Listing at lower fees can be advantageous (and sometimes downright necessary) if one doesn't have the inf on hand to pay a higher listing fee, otherwise there is no benefit in terms of market fees of listing at a lower price assuming all one's items sell. If the items don't sell, that's a slightly different story due to the non-refundability of the listing fee, but I won't pursue that tangent here.

 

Edited August 3, 2023 by AboveTheChemist
typo

[UltraAlt]

19 minutes ago, AboveTheChemist said:

The market fee is determined by the final sale price, not the listing price. Assuming an item sells, the market fee is collected in two steps. The first is the listing fee, which is 5% of the listing price and non-refundable. The second is the transaction fee, which is 10% of the final sale price minus whatever was paid as the listing fee, and is only collected if the item sells. Listing items at low amounts of inf does save on listing fees, but the difference is made up at the back end when/if the items sells.

@Raikao

Great.

I always thought it was posting and selling fees and calculated that into my posting prices.

 

I see that https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Wentworth's_Fine_Consignments words it close to your wording (essentially the same meaning);

"....Now this consignment house is not free and we do have two types of fees. There is a Listing Fee, which is 5% of the price you sell your item for. The minimum listing fee is 5 influence. You get this fee back if you sell your item. There is also a Transaction Fee of 10% of the final sale price, which is deducted at the time of purchase. The 5% you paid when you listed the item is subtracted from the Transaction Fee. You will use your Influence to pay for these transactions...."

 

The influence you pay from listing the items comes from the influence you have on hand at the time.

Transaction Fee - Listing Fee comes out of what the items sell for before you pull the influence from the market on a completed sale.

 

I guess this should be included as well as it is the next paragraph ...

"....Please be aware that you will lose your listing fee if your item does not sell. Also, you may put up a 'looking to buy' order. Your items will stay up for sale indefinitely, as long as you are active in the community. If you disappear for 60 days or more, your items will be lost."

I have been miscalculated and had characters that had not logged in within 60 days (within the last week or two) and they did not lose the items that they had up for sale (or, more correctly, still had the inf waiting from sold items). So it is a 60-day account log-in versus 60-day character log in.

 

 

 

 

[AboveTheChemist]

14 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

If you disappear for 60 days or more, your items will be lost.

 

I had not heard of this restriction before, but after a little digging on the wiki it looks like the 60-day inactivity restriction was removed in Issue 14. (source: https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Issue_14#Other_Changes, second bullet down). The current Auction House wiki page (https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Auction_House) does not mention the 60-day inactivity window, and simply states "Inventories, bids and items for sale remain in the Auction House indefinitely until claimed or acted on, even if the account is inactive for a long time."

 

I have not interacted with the Wentworth Representative in-game to my knowledge, but I'll have a chat with her next time I am on and will amend the wiki if her dialogue is different from what is shown on the Wentworth's wiki page (and will bug report it if she still mentions the 60-day inactivity window).

[lemming]

7 hours ago, Raikao said:

Hold up. So if I post an item for 1 inf, it will sell to the highest bidder? Even if that's a 14mil bid?

 

I've seen people mention putting up something for 1 inf to save on market fees. And thought this could backfire because "what if someone has a 50 inf bid on that item?". But if I "skip" those lowball bids to sell to the best offer. Shouldn't I literally sell everything at 1 inf?

See above fee discussion from ATC.

 

It's just a risk if all the bids are lowball bids.

 

I normally dump my salvage at 11 inf and sometimes will see a progression of payouts going out and then cratering into the teens eventually.  For enhancements, I post at a minimum that it cost me to craft at.   I know a lot of people post at much lower and on average, they still pull a profit.

Edited August 3, 2023 by lemming
should have had coffee before comments

[UltraAlt]

18 minutes ago, AboveTheChemist said:

The current Auction House wiki page

 

...doesn't match up to the Wentworth's page for some reason.

 

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Wentworth's_Fine_Consignments vs https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Auction_House

 

I guess the term Wentworth's, Black Market, and whatever the "Market" on the side-that-shall-not-be-named was was named became outdated when the influence, infamy, and information all merged into one currency (which is influence or just inf ... as far as I know).

 

23 minutes ago, AboveTheChemist said:

I have not interacted with the Wentworth Representative in-game to my knowledge, but I'll have a chat with her next time I am on and will amend the wiki if her dialogue is different from what is shown on the Wentworth's wiki page (and will bug report it if she still mentions the 60-day inactivity window).

 

Thanks. 

I haven't checked out the info at a Wentworth's rep since back on live.

I have only talked to them a few times on Homecoming. I can't remember if it was before or after I found out about /ah or not.

 

 

[UltraAlt]

19 minutes ago, lemming said:

It's just risk if all the bids are profitable.

@Raikao

 

I think you intend to mean that placing an item at 1 (or 5 to avoid loss due to the transaction fee) influence is only a risk if you intend to make a profit off of the item.

 

That is to say, if you are just trying to get something out of inventory, and you don't care what it sells for, you might as well put it at a lowest sales price.

That is done to not only get it out of your character's inventory but also to move it through the auction house slot as quickly as possible.

 

 

[lemming]

yea, communication without coffee is hard.

 

I'll add if you look at the history (which isn't always accurate), but if you see a lot of for sale, and a bunch of bids.  There's probably a bunch of lowball bids.

[Raikao]

13 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

@Raikao

Great.

I always thought it was posting and selling fees and calculated that into my posting prices.

 

I see that https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Wentworth's_Fine_Consignments words it close to your wording (essentially the same meaning);

"....Now this consignment house is not free and we do have two types of fees. There is a Listing Fee, which is 5% of the price you sell your item for. The minimum listing fee is 5 influence. You get this fee back if you sell your item. There is also a Transaction Fee of 10% of the final sale price, which is deducted at the time of purchase. The 5% you paid when you listed the item is subtracted from the Transaction Fee. You will use your Influence to pay for these transactions...."

 

The influence you pay from listing the items comes from the influence you have on hand at the time.

Transaction Fee - Listing Fee comes out of what the items sell for before you pull the influence from the market on a completed sale.

 

I guess this should be included as well as it is the next paragraph ...

"....Please be aware that you will lose your listing fee if your item does not sell. Also, you may put up a 'looking to buy' order. Your items will stay up for sale indefinitely, as long as you are active in the community. If you disappear for 60 days or more, your items will be lost."

I have been miscalculated and had characters that had not logged in within 60 days (within the last week or two) and they did not lose the items that they had up for sale (or, more correctly, still had the inf waiting from sold items). So it is a 60-day account log-in versus 60-day character log in.

 

 

 

 

 

Well that changes it. I'll list at a reasonable minimum then, to avoid lowball bids, at least on items that aren't hot-seller.s

[UltraAlt]

8 hours ago, lemming said:

yea, communication without coffee is hard.

 

I'm there with you on that one.