Officially Unofficial Weekly Discussion #36: Mastermind behind it all (discussion of Mastermind Primaries)

[SeraphimKensai]

Welcome back and sorry I meant to get this out a little earlier this week but it's been a bit hectic at home with a sick baby this week.

 

Continuing the the series of powerset discussions we've had recently, this week we look into mastermind primaries.

 

What mastermind primaries do you like, which ones don't you like? What do you enjoy or dislike about them? How do rate the various groups of henchmen? What do you think about the concept of pet less masterminds? What's your thoughts about primary power end costs? How do you feel about the henchmen negative level shifts? After the recent updates to MM primaries are there any sets that stand out as severely underperforming? Or overpowered?

 

As always thanks for playing.

[Greycat]

It's not so much "Which primaries do you like/not like" for me, as much as "Which combinations are fun/not fun?" Back on live, I had a bots/FF mastermind. That was so *mind numbingly boring* and "sit back and watch" it just about put me off the entire AT all together. (The AOE buffing made it even worse, as I had even LESS to do.)

 

I mentioned it on the (live) mastermind forum, and with some discussion, a Thugs/Poison was suggested. It's very active... and the only set I've ever accidentally soloed an AV with. (Forgot my settings, ended up with an AV countess crey, if I remember right, and decided "what the heck, go for it.") SO, these days it's (a) picking a concept and (b) figuring out which primaries and secondaries work well together - which secondaries keep you in melee range if you have a melee set, which are good for ranged, etc.

 

As far as petless masterminds? It's not my place to tell anyone else how to play. If that's how they're having fun, then they've succeeded with a petless MM. If someone doesn't like that they're playing one, they can keep their opinions to themselves.

 

END costs... for both primary and secondary could still have a look taken at them. (I keep thinking of the poison heal being (a) slow and (b) expensive feeling.) *shrug*

 

Level shifts... I get why they're there. I think I'd like to have my minions have a bit more of a ... "spawn protection" phase, though. It's annoying to recast minions and have them completely wiped out before you can finish clicking the first upgrade button. That would be more welcome, to me, than level shift changes for most content. Though given they have a hard time hitting some things, perhaps MMs should have a bit of a minion-only inherent leadership - not at full strength, but at least enough to help them with hitting and doing damage.

[Clave Dark 5]

I have a few MMs, but it's been awhile and I may not make any more.  As an AT, they suffer the worst possible insult in that being attacked renders you unable to hit back as hard.  Hold and Confuses can affect anyone but there's a number of tools to mitigate that, but have some of your henchies get dropped (often one-shotted)?  Now you can't attack with anywhere as much force.  Resummoning them of course takes time when you might be aiding the remaining ones or affecting the foes... and the situation spirals further... it's a rather bad place to get caught in.  Maybe people who build super-tanky and also do binds etc. can play more... tactically? and avoid some of that, but that's a level of technical expertise that not many (if any) other AT requires to be viable. 

 

I sure like the idea of the MM AT, but I find it too irritating to play.

Edited July 15, 2023 by Clave Dark 5

[rolandgrey]

Oh boy, oh boy...

 

So, Masterminds are an interesting joy for me.  Tex of the Black Pants Legion tried to explain them to some of his associates on their podcast, but he didn't quite convey the difference between a City of Heroes Mastermind and the average MMO's "Summoner" class.

 

In other games, the Summoner gets ONE creature.  They can then improve the creature over time or replace it with better ones.  The one franchise to defy this has been Diablo, but it does it with summons that are laughably flimsy compared to City of Heroes's Mastermind pets.  Even more, City of Heroes's Masterminds were designed with controls so a player can send their minions ahead of them rather than always moving like a mob from fight to fight.  Give it some time, and you can start to set up devious ambushes.

 

Masterminds really made City of Villains stand out when they were introduced.  Crowd control, but shockingly tanky and scrappy crowd control, the Mastermind filled multiple roles simultaneously on a team.  It was truly a gem of a design, which only improved as time went on.

 

So, that said...  My favorites...

 

I know there are a lot of people who despise them, but I love Mercenaries.  Six rough-and-tumble troopers who put the other military types to shame.  They throw damn near everything at the enemy, from so many bullets you'll stop walking on the floor with all the ejected brass around, to bombs, to poison gas to flamethrowers...  They've got nukes, they've got knives, sharp sticks...  The mercenaries are just vicious, and the enemy learns that lesson fast.

 

Their distant cousin, the Thugs, isn't that impressive in terms of variable threat response (it's mostly smashing and lethal damage, with a little fire from the Arsonist Corrupter-lite), but their strength lies in tactics and overwhelming numbers.  Gang War is probably one of the absolute favorite powers in the game:  A group of disaffected thugs bust out of the woodwork to beat super soldiers and plant monsters to death with nothing more than six-shooters, baseball bats and sledgehammers.

 

Ninjas used to be quite terrible.  They were as tough as a wet paper bag and had barely any fighting strength.  Then Homecoming found out a bunch of their powers were locked for no discernible reason.  After the Ninja update, they've become a genuine threat on the battlefield.  Now the ninja are hacking and kicking enemies to death.  Probably one of my favorite memories of these guys was when the Jounin threw carpets of caltrops onto Odysseus in the museum warehouse mission of the Mortimer Kal Strike Force.  On top of that, they can finally heal themselves and prepare for the next fight without the constant thought of "Well, looks like I better get the next batch of Ninjas 'R Us ready..."  The Oni kind of stands out, though.  You have this group of smooth operators, but then you've got a weird-faced demon...  And more fire.  Don't get me wrong, I like the help, but I would have figured a big, badass ronin would have fit the bill better.

 

Beast Mastery takes some getting used to.  It encourages "In the thick of it" play as the beasts are like 80% melee fighters.  Having seen Savage Assault, I kind of wish we had some of the melee attacks rolled into this set to make for Beast Masters who are one of the pack with their beasts.  Still, there's nothing quite like watching your wolves and lions pounce on and tear apart an enemy.

 

Robots are the machine, high-tech version of mercenaries.  Fully kitted out, they throw almost everything at the enemies, so they're not really vulnerable to anything.  On top of that, the Protector Bots put force fields on the crew, and if you're a FF Secondary, then most enemies won't be able to hit you.  The new Repair Bot is a welcome upgrade from the slow-recharging Repair power.  Another good secondary is Sonic, as the Mastermind is able to boost the resilience of the robots while the Protectors make them harder to hit.

 

Necromancy is still a bit flimsy to me...  But then you engage the Soul Extraction and for a brief moment, you're volleying grim death at everything around you.  It's not quite the same as Gang War and doesn't last nearly as long, but it hits HARD, making the set damn effective.

 

Finally, Demon Summoning is...  Clunky.  The demons look kind of goofy (especially the Demonlings, with those weird blocky mask-like heads), they're surprisingly squishy despite the Demons putting armors on everybody in the group (and even slapping Thermal Radiation armors on them only helps a little more).  They hit okay, but it's still weird to me how little "impact" they seem to have.  They're serviceable, but they're not that impressive.

[furniturepolish]

Love MMs. I was averse to them all the way up until the changes on Page 5. Ninja/TA is now my most played single character and Necro/Dark Miasma isnt too far behind. I'm not the best build maker but I got the Necro pretty tanky and the Ninjas are just pure damage and debuff. Very squishy, myself especially, but between Flash Arrow and the new defense slotting opportunity for them everything is still very doable. The chain of crits you can see while maintaining the MM attack buffs is always wild. That Ninja build was the first I tried soloing certain things. Crimson Prototype +4/x8, Kronos Titan, etc. I have plenty more to try to solo but the damage output and happy feet of new ninjas mixed with all the crazy stuff TA does kicks ass. I plan to try other primaries eventually due to how much I've enjoyed those two. 

End costs... when I said the Ninjas were slotted for "pure damage and debuff" I am mentally including the ability to keep firing as a part of that. I gave up on so many defense set bonuses to grab more max end and recovery. Brutal. The Necro doesnt feel it at all because of Theft of Essence in Twilight Grasp, however. The costs are high but the solution was easy. 

Petless MM? Can anyone make a MIDS for "Bee Thrower Man" real quick? It can be any secondary but I just want Call Swarm from BM as my only power from the primary. 

[kelika2]

Bots - assault swarm missiles(regular) still do hefty knockback

Thugs - Enforcers need larger ranges on their leadership.  Bruiser is generally left out in the cold most of the time

Beasts - not enough aoe. 

Ninjas - player pets creating pseudo pets is not working right at all.  caltrops and rain of fire disappear when the target they use them on dies.  scrap caltrops, give them Lotus Drops and all attacks have a minor -speed/rech and toxic dot.  scrap rain of fire and give them fireball or fire sword circle.  also maybe combustion.  or maybe have the said powers linger on corpses.  if anyone reading this remember how Radi Emission toggles used to work vs how they work now this is what I am trying to convey

Necromancy - t1 pets are still too slow and im shocked there is not a Zombie Bite ability.  thats like.. zombies thing.

Demons - they are ok, maybe add a cold damage aura to the prince.

Mercs - wider cones, slightly shorter cooldown on spec ops flashbang and gas

 

Mastermind's poison needs a reworking:

Envenom and Weaken need to be toggles, you can put them on pets or players.  Mastermind only because this would require the other ATs to group all the time

Nox Gas should get turned into others nox gas where its a pbaoe toggle coming from you.

Neuro Breath should get turned into Neurotoxic Vial.  PBAOE and the animation changed to whatever Elixir of Life groundpoundlite does.  maybe give it extra effects and work with venom/weak/nox

Alkaloid should get "splash" healing.  strong primary, 50% area

 

Love Bots/mercs, hate necro/beast

universally slow pets and the level shifts holds them back from some content.

petless masterminds only work for demon/pain fetish characters

Beasts wolves need a pbaoe Piercing Howl ability at level 6 for a performance boost and maybe a target increase cap on dire wolfs aoes. 

 

[KC4800]

I have played Thugs, Bots, Beasts, Mercs, and Ninjas. That is the order of my preference as well.

 

I agree that MM /Poison secondary needs looked at.

 

Knowing what style of play works best with your choice of Primary and Secondary leads to the best success.  At range, in melee, that sort of thing. Also, some need the advantage of Bodyguard Mode, while others don't. Experimenting with different scenarios is what I like best about playing a MM.

[Herotu]

I love masterminds, but for me I have an issue wrapping my head around the combination of Primaries with Secondaries. Getting a concept that works is really hard.

 

Personally, I think the Secondary selection is really meh, I dislike them all. I don't do Defender sets. There are NO fun options - can we have assault instead of support?

 

That said, I recognise that this discussion is specifically about Primaries and so I will say this:

 

Things I love about MM:

• Thugs,
• Robots,
• Mercenaries,
• Whips in Demons,
• The IDEA behind Ninjas.

 

There's an old trope/adage that goes, "Keep it Simple Stupid". This is something that I'd HIGHLY recommend people who are creating a hero designer/costume creator. There's a reason Lego is so successful - it started with a simple brick. The point I'm trying to make is that the onus for being creative should be on the PLAYER not the developers.

 

And the conclusion is my suggestion: Men in Suits. Simple, elegant and can be used by a HUGE variety of character concepts. 

This contrasts with Ninjas. Complex, off-the-wall design that is admirable from a creativity point-of-view but lacks versatility - who has a Ninjas MM? Too complicated, not compatible with players' concepts.

 

Demons audio could do with a pass. I think the triggers need to be reduced in their frequency and the sounds themselves made less jarring.

 

 

[UltraAlt]

16 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

What mastermind primaries do you like, which ones don't you like? What do you enjoy or dislike about them?

 

Like

Beast Mastery: fits several of my character conceptions. Fun to run around with a pack of animals. Would be nice to have more pet customization, but it's fun as it is.

Mercenaries: I can't say that I have been overly thrilled with mercenaries, but I have characet conceptions that require it.

Necromancy: Fits some of my character conceptions. One was conceived to be a zombie mastermind as I hadn't played one since before the sunset. I think I have 2 or 3 of them at this point

Ninjas: Well what isn't not to like about ninja?!

Robotics: Like Doctor Steel says "Build the robots!"

Thugs: Probably only have one character with thug ... and it sort of fits their character conception

 

Dislike

Demon Summoning: I have a couple of Demon Masterminds, but I only play the primary for the whip. I don't want to start summoning demons. The demons are too noisy, and the graphics are too busy.

 

16 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

How do rate the various groups of henchmen?

 

Obviously, I have to rate them for character conception and "fun to play" based on those character conceptions in this order (highest rating first)

 

Robotics

Ninjas

Beast Mastery

Necromancy

Thugs

Mercenaries

Demon Summoning (Petless mastermind only) [so on a 5 star scale for henchmen rating, it comes up with no stars]

 

16 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

What do you think about the concept of pet less masterminds?

 

It didn't work so well with Beast Mastery. I wanted a character with just the bird powers in the set. I tried, but it wasn't going well. Someone directed me to Dominators with Savage Assault as a secondary and that fit much better (thanks again to whomever that was).

 

I have great fun with my 3 petless demon masterminds. It's the only way you can get whip attacks in the game.

 

The main trick with a petless mastermind is to replace your missing pets with teammates.

 

I doubt it works at level 50, and I won't bother to try.

My plan in general with these characters is to level-lock them once I'm able to six slot all the whip powers.

 

Character conception is the fun for me, so they don't have to level all the way to 49 (where I would be level-locking them anyway) in order for me to have fun playing them.

 

16 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

What's your thoughts about primary power end costs?

 

 

I don't think about it. I just deal with it.

 

16 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

How do you feel about the henchmen negative level shifts?

 

I don't feel anything about it. I just deal with it.

 

17 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

After the recent updates to MM primaries are there any sets that stand out as severely underperforming?

 

Not sure. I've only been playing robots, zombies, ninjas, and beasts recently.

I don't notice any really underperforming.

 

17 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Or overpowered?

 

We would have to talk about secondaries in order for that to become a factor.

[blue4333]

Masterminds are great as a concept but are severely handicapped by several things

 

1) Pet Level Penalty - Spawning at +0, -1 , -2 just makes Masterminds less viable in end-game content. All Pets spawning at +0 (excluding Incarnate shifts) will reduce the feeling of powerlessness at +4 difficulty levels.

 

2) Pet Movement and AI - Pets are slow, AI isn't that great. This makes them stuck in random places or lag behind in most types of content that focus on objectives. We need a Teleport to Me ability to make sure the Pets stay with the Mastermind at all times. It is ridiculous having to wait 10 seconds for the pets to move and then begin their attack animations and cycles. Imagine playing a Ranged AT and the projectiles take 10 seconds to travel from your character to the enemy.

 

3) Endurance tax - Not sure why this is still in place but Masterminds are already using lower buff/debuff values and with the changes to personal attacks, wouldn't you want Masterminds to be more active? Scrap this endurance tax.

 

I get that Masterminds can fulfil a lot of roles e.g. damage, buff/debuff and tanking but all of the above are just handicaps in a meta where other support ATs like Defenders, Corruptors or Controllers can perform better in every aspect that a Mastermind can do; except Tankermind stuff but pets are so unreliable anyways.

 

The recent changes to the Primaries are a step in the right direction but with the above fundamental setbacks, no matter what kind of revolutionary changes, Masterminds will always feel like a chore to play.

Edited July 15, 2023 by blue4333

[Coyotedancer]

I still say the Beast set's boss pet ought to have been a bear or a gorilla using the semi-upright demon rig instead of an ugly-ass armadillo-wolf thing.

[WindDemon21]

On 7/14/2023 at 4:19 PM, SeraphimKensai said:

Welcome back and sorry I meant to get this out a little earlier this week but it's been a bit hectic at home with a sick baby this week.

 

Continuing the the series of powerset discussions we've had recently, this week we look into mastermind primaries.

 

What mastermind primaries do you like, which ones don't you like? What do you enjoy or dislike about them? How do rate the various groups of henchmen? What do you think about the concept of pet less masterminds? What's your thoughts about primary power end costs? How do you feel about the henchmen negative level shifts? After the recent updates to MM primaries are there any sets that stand out as severely underperforming? Or overpowered?

 

As always thanks for playing.

Nothing on MM even stands out as remotely overpowered to me, that said, it's not a surprise to ANYONE that MMs could use some buff/fixes.

 

Starting with the number 1 biggest issue: not just MM pets, but really all pets in general should be even level. The purple patch just hurts too much for really no reason. It's just an extra hurt that absolutely zero pet in the game would be OP by being even level versus -1 or -2. They'd just be a little more accurate with a little more damage, but VERY far from anything in the OP range by doing so.

 

2: Across the board really, ever since pets stopped being affected by recharge, pet attacks were never adjusted to account for this. Non-MM pets depending on the pet this doesn't affect as much, but this does REALLY affect imps, and gremlins still too who only have 1 and 2 attacks, but MM pets especially get really affected by this. Especially for those with powers that are anything over 30 seconds. Especially the long and weak powers like Wild charge on beasts, a 90s rech that can't be affected for just a 33% damage boost and some slow/immob resist?

 

Really anything over 30s should be around 30s of course dependent on power, some are super specialized and could perhaps be a little longer depending on duration, or shorter even based on power etc, but generally you get the point. Many pet powers need to be on shorter recharges since that change occurred. (pretty much any pet aoe especially, single target while some should be looked at is less of an issue as at least for MMs most get a few ST attacks which leaves less gaps). The self heal on ninja pets for one on a 60s timer is a glaring example as well, it's a nice addition, but 60s is really bad.

 

3: Demons/beasts/thugs should have their pet resist/defenses in the upgrade powers to be slottable. Bots should also have the protector bot defense shield moved to the upgrade power as well IMO.

 

4: For pet IO's slotability also, would still be good to get a way to slot those def/res uniques into the upgrade powers as well. Otherwise always thought that those sets without a 4th pet power, should get a 4th pet power, by having only the final upgrade power, and just have pets have the powers from the first upgrade already on the pets. This gets complicated now by having the armor powers in the upgrades to slot. I imagine spaghetti code is an obstacle to both allow the pets to already have their armors, but still be slottable in that final upgrade power (perhaps this could be done by replacing their armor when an upgrade is cast on them?)

 

This it would make sense to homogenize the pets all having a 4th pet for those uniques and slotting alleviation, and then in the extra power on those classes that already have a 4th pet, they'd get a unique power that the other sets have like fortify pack, serum, etc. Then all pet classes would have one final upgrade power, 4th pet, and a unique buff/control type power. This is a more extensive fix but would greatly help out all pet sets. Or as mentioned at the very least, find a way to allow those unique IO's into the upgrade power.

 

For the upgrades, they really should be automatic anyway, but in regards to that i know the devs considered it (and may again in the future) but at the very least, the upgrade powers should be pbaoe cast, so you don't have to target a pet first to cast it. This becomes a huge annoyance if casting pets in battle, and waiting for them to even be targettable before you can upgrade them. At least a pbaoe cast, means you could cast it as soon as the animation is done for summoning the pets and they'd get the buff faster, and less annoyance targetting them (or the specific one as the pets may be spread around too far in battle to try to target a not-dead pet to cast the upgrade on.)

 

5: not that it also couldn't even take the number 2 slot even, or shouldn't have a number, cause it just plain shouldn't exist in the first place, but all MM powers, should have a normal end cost compared to controller/corruptor support powers, or their attacks, etc.

 

6: They also need to make MM debuffs from the support sets the same value as controller/corruptors. There is no justification for them doing less, especially when buffs/heals are the same values. It just unnecessarily hurts the debfuff sets.

 

 

 

 

[OverkillEngine]

On 7/20/2023 at 2:13 PM, WindDemon21 said:

For the upgrades, they really should be automatic anyway, but in regards to that i know the devs considered it (and may again in the future) but at the very least, the upgrade powers should be pbaoe cast, so you don't have to target a pet first to cast it. This becomes a huge annoyance if casting pets in battle, and waiting for them to even be targettable before you can upgrade them. At least a pbaoe cast, means you could cast it as soon as the animation is done for summoning the pets and they'd get the buff faster, and less annoyance targetting them (or the specific one as the pets may be spread around too far in battle to try to target a not-dead pet to cast the upgrade on.)

Or just say screw the cottage rule and turn the upgrades into aura toggles instead of clicks. Did a Posi 1 TF a while back with a team that cranked it up to +4, and I was stuck as the primary healer/support as a Demon/Dark, and splitting my attention to replace pets and keep them at full power so I didn't die while also keeping the tank with paper armor from dying with my other powers was getting pretty obnoxious. Too much animation lock to keep up with everything.
 

Edited July 23, 2023 by OverkillEngine

[WindDemon21]

On 7/23/2023 at 12:36 AM, OverkillEngine said:

Or just say screw the cottage rule and turn the upgrades into aura toggles instead of clicks. Did a Posi 1 TF a while back with a team that cranked it up to +4, and I was stuck as the primary healer/support as a Demon/Dark, and splitting my attention to replace pets and keep them at full power so I didn't die while also keeping the tank with paper armor from dying with my other powers was getting pretty obnoxious. Too much animation lock to keep up with everything.
 

I mean i agree 100000%, just saying devs thought about it at one point and then decided against that. Hopefully they have learned the error of their ways since then and will make it an auto at least when the big MM fix comes.