I am so glad this game does not have this in canon.

[LegionAlpha]

So really do not how to start this so I will get to the point, I am so glad we do not stories that have a pissing contest between cosmic entities on who created the multiverse and we have to for some reason fight them because (insert reason here). Oh wow, found my intro.  Why does this come up? Blame youtube random recommendations. Anyways so there was this thing of Marvel and DC most powerful cosmic beings list, now my knowledge of entities of both franchise are a bit dated since the 90's back when there was clear idea of who was who in both universes. However since then many new critters have popped up all saying they were around before creation and it very confusing. 

 

Now this games does have Ralarru and his annoying siblings as cosmic entities go, but they are not a Galactus or Forger of Worlds who found the Anti-Life equation to lure the Endless in a trap to wake Perpetua and unleash the Annihilation wave upon us all in an attempt to court Death to reform the universe in their new image.

 

Huh, guess it was a slight rant. Sorry.  

[Snarky]

You missed the whole Well thing then huh?

[LegionAlpha]

20 minutes ago, Snarky said:

You missed the whole Well thing then huh?

Yep. I am guessing I did.  Wait, you mean the well of the furies? Nahh. Not cosmic enough. I mean Infinity Gauntlet, Galactic Storm, The Korvac Sega,  Dark Phoenix,  just found out about the Cancerverse in Marvel. And lets not get started in DC. There seems to be a new invasion of the week these days especially when the Lanterns are involved. 

 

I mean, can you imagine the devs creating a pantheon of new ultra powerful characters from outer space or other realms that are older than this reality in a year long storyline that has us stuck in the middle of who is the "most powerful" and we are stuck in the middle of that fight? 

 

That actually sounds interesting. 

Edited July 30, 2023 by LegionAlpha

[Snarky]

12 minutes ago, LegionAlpha said:

Yep. I am guessing I did.  Wait, you mean the well of the furies? Nahh. Not cosmic enough. I mean Infinity Gauntlet, Galactic Storm, The Korvac Sega,  Dark Phoenix,  just found out about the Cancerverse in Marvel. And lets not get started in DC. There seems to be a new invasion of the week these days especially when the Lanterns are involved. 

Okay, perhaps my reply was a bit short…and Snarky.  
 

But seriously, the Well is responsible for creating a few (at least) Godlike (small g?) beings on Multiple dimensions.  Then an army of incarnates.  And that is just what we KNOW?!?   Now, as brilliant as I am…..   I just think I may be missing a few details and there might be a little bit more happening…. Other than multiple godlike beings being created and a multidimensional conflict with an army of demi god incarnates that is

[BlackSpectre]

Didn't they make The Well of the Furies sentient? I liked it better when the Well was a force of nature without intelligence guiding it. But I agree... the Well itself is a cosmic entity. Rhularu maybe. Isn't DJ Zero a creator of universes, even if they are pocket universes?  That's pretty cosmic.

 

Us lowly humans drink from the Well of the Furies... but who drank from the well originally? Who was the well "dug" by? Dun, dun, duuuuuuun!

 

 

[Marine X]

Mott from the Dark Astoria Arcs and Hamidon are probably the closest besides Rularu to a cosmic or Godlike Villain, although the clearly omnipotent Mapserver is definitely in the running.

 

The Intension before shutdown was for them to pretty much go there with Battalion. Seems like the only part of that to exist in game is the Shivans, as they were the first wave. The current developers seem to have little interest in continuing in that direction, but I think Kallisti Wharf was to be the focus of that Invasion. Not sure if any other aspects had been developed, guess a thorough look at the i24 Beta game data would show if other work had been done.

Edited July 30, 2023 by Marine X

[SeraphimKensai]

What about Mot?

[huang3721]

8 hours ago, LegionAlpha said:

Not cosmic enough.

 

The devs planned those cosmic entities according to the 2014 Lore AMA. They wouldn't be a factor until issue 32 or after. Sadly (or luckily?), NCSoft shuttered City of Heroes long before it could go there. Even the name (Primordials) was still a placeholder. 

 

Spoiler

Summary:
Everyone in existence generates "power". It accumulates and becomes "the source". Anyone who obtains enough "power" can challenge the Primordials. So, Primordials created the wells as safety valves. They grant "power" to the trustworthy and keep the crazy omnicidal from getting it. Primordials also assign Dimensionless to control those wells.

 

[Mopery]

Wait until you hear about the Well of the Furries...

[JasperStone]

1 hour ago, SeraphimKensai said:

What about Mot?

 

I got the Motts

 

[El D]

1 hour ago, huang3721 said:

 

The devs planned those cosmic entities according to the 2014 Lore AMA. They wouldn't be a factor until issue 32 or after. Sadly (or luckily?), NCSoft shuttered City of Heroes long before it could go there. Even the name (Primordials) was still a placeholder. 

 

  Hide contents

Summary:
Everyone in existence generates "power". It accumulates and becomes "the source". Anyone who obtains enough "power" can challenge the Primordials. So, Primordials created the wells as safety valves. They grant "power" to the trustworthy and keep the crazy omnicidal from getting it. Primordials also assign Dimensionless to control those wells.

 

 

I'd say luckily. The whole 'Normal Hero -> Incarnate -> Dimensionless -> Primordials' progression chain the devs revealed in the AMAs was going to be a massive headache at the very best. Totally understand it as a 'promoting continual subscription grinding mechanic' to give players The Next Thing To Do for their max level characters but given how many arguments the HC forum gets right now about power creep/progression just with IOs and AE (and the added Hardmode content)... I'd really loathe to see a version of CoH that has multiple tiers of endgame OP nonsense further beyond what we've already got.

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, El D said:

 

I'd say luckily. The whole 'Normal Hero -> Incarnate -> Dimensionless -> Primordials' progression chain the devs revealed in the AMAs was going to be a massive headache at the very best. Totally understand it as a 'promoting continual subscription grinding mechanic' to give players The Next Thing To Do for their max level characters but given how many arguments the HC forum gets right now about power creep/progression just with IOs and AE (and the added Hardmode content)... I'd really loathe to see a version of CoH that has multiple tiers of endgame OP nonsense further beyond what we've already got.

As much as I wanted (want?) all those other nifty incarnate powers.... I agree.  Not profitable but the game (in my opinion) would benefit from a broader range of ITF and BAF level content.  The Magisterium level is daunting for casuals.  The ITF is popular, and more "beginning" Incarnate content with good rewards would have been quite a blessing.  

 

But, as you say, chasing dollars

[Greycat]

1 hour ago, El D said:

 

I'd say luckily. The whole 'Normal Hero -> Incarnate -> Dimensionless -> Primordials' progression chain the devs revealed in the AMAs was going to be a massive headache at the very best. Totally understand it as a 'promoting continual subscription grinding mechanic' to give players The Next Thing To Do for their max level characters but given how many arguments the HC forum gets right now about power creep/progression just with IOs and AE (and the added Hardmode content)... I'd really loathe to see a version of CoH that has multiple tiers of endgame OP nonsense further beyond what we've already got.

 

*nod* and you'd have fewer and fewer people to do each tier of this subscription-grind content - and/or quite a few people getting PLd up who have no idea about the game, used to the "the game begins at the end" model of other MMOs.

 

Honestly, especially given how scabbed-on it feels, I wouldn't have been surprised if that ended up killing off the game if it had gone the way it was described. (I *already* wasn't fond of what I'd heard with the Battalion storyline.)

[BlackSpectre]

The Battalion storyline would have been interesting I suppose, but how would the   “What? ANOTHER alien invasion???”  reaction be avoided?

 

The death of statesman in my opinion was the major turning point in a game that was basically defined by Statesman… well at least the narrative behind it.  There’s a vacuum, narratively speaking, left in the game. Not in villains, but in Icons. A singular ideal or hero to follow. Although Ms. Liberty is trying to fill her grandfather’s shoes, to date she hasn’t Inspired much. 
 

That’s where I would take the game next. Either give Ms. Liberty the chance to shine or some other hero. 
 

I know one proposed storyline by the devs was to fill this vacuum temporarily by bringing Statesman back to rally the people against the Batallion, except it would be revealed after that it really wasn’t statesman but his other reality double, Tyrant, who was asked to step in and give the people hope. As a result he started having a change of heart. So it may have been that Marcus Cole took up Statesman’s role, and we’d have Statesman once again as the leading principle, the iconic hero we can all look up to and rally behind. In traditional comic book “no one ever dies” fashion, this makes sense to me. 
 

But the devs today do not have to follow that storyline. In fact, to do it would be a huge undertaking… and that’s the rub. With a team composed entirely of part time volunteers, there is just not the manpower or resources to do anything like that. 
 

Still… there’s that vacuum. Maybe we could do something about that, but on a much smaller scale?  It’s all a matter of public opinion, faith, and inspiration anyway. It could be Ms. Liberty, or someone new, or even a group that would inspire the game? Instead of a world-ending threat to make the iconic hero, maybe something else could happen?  Something that would require less work from the devs? Maybe. 

[Snarky]

32 minutes ago, BlackSpectre said:

 

The death of statesman in my opinion was the major turning point in a game that was basically defined by Statesman…

Statesman died?  I never did those stories.  (No rewards).  Wow. Could have given a spoiler alert. 
 

Now you ruined it

[lemming]

RNG is the most powerful cosmic entity

[Vic Raiden]

42 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Statesman died?  I never did those stories.  (No rewards).  Wow. Could have given a spoiler alert. 
 

Now you ruined it

Hard not to spoil it when he's always been dead since the introduction of the story where he dies. MMORPG worlds just be like that.

[Greycat]

1 hour ago, BlackSpectre said:

The Battalion storyline would have been interesting I suppose, but how would the   “What? ANOTHER alien invasion???”  reaction be avoided?

 

 

Well, we'd just been through praetoria, praetoria, praetoria...

 

That said, it's not the "another alien invasion" - at least for me. It's the bunch of nonsensical "AND THEY WERE A VILLAIN ALL ALONG!" side switching (ok, Scirocco would eventually go hero...ish, I suppose) with lady Grey, the whole "the Kheldians are all being used for fuel" (um, between them also being an interstellar, even intergalactic, species, easy travel away, allies and *other dimensions,* on top of being player ATs... no,) and having it dig into more ("play this subscription to reach them!") Incarnate levels...

 

Bleccch.

[A Cat]

2 hours ago, BlackSpectre said:

The Battalion storyline would have been interesting I suppose, but how would the   “What? ANOTHER alien invasion???”  reaction be avoided?

 

The death of statesman in my opinion was the major turning point in a game that was basically defined by Statesman… well at least the narrative behind it.  There’s a vacuum, narratively speaking, left in the game. Not in villains, but in Icons. A singular ideal or hero to follow. Although Ms. Liberty is trying to fill her grandfather’s shoes, to date she hasn’t Inspired much. 
 

That’s where I would take the game next. Either give Ms. Liberty the chance to shine or some other hero. 
 

I know one proposed storyline by the devs was to fill this vacuum temporarily by bringing Statesman back to rally the people against the Batallion, except it would be revealed after that it really wasn’t statesman but his other reality double, Tyrant, who was asked to step in and give the people hope. As a result he started having a change of heart. So it may have been that Marcus Cole took up Statesman’s role, and we’d have Statesman once again as the leading principle, the iconic hero we can all look up to and rally behind. In traditional comic book “no one ever dies” fashion, this makes sense to me. 
 

But the devs today do not have to follow that storyline. In fact, to do it would be a huge undertaking… and that’s the rub. With a team composed entirely of part time volunteers, there is just not the manpower or resources to do anything like that. 
 

Still… there’s that vacuum. Maybe we could do something about that, but on a much smaller scale?  It’s all a matter of public opinion, faith, and inspiration anyway. It could be Ms. Liberty, or someone new, or even a group that would inspire the game? Instead of a world-ending threat to make the iconic hero, maybe something else could happen?  Something that would require less work from the devs? Maybe. 

Personally I like the idea of a Tyrant redemption arc. I am a big fan of Praetoria in general though. IIRC, there was even an idea of the reformed Rikti showing up with a mothership or two to help out in the invasion, which would be kino af. Now that would be one hell of a redemption arc. You'd go from all "The only good Rikti is a dead Rikti" and "If they run they're Rikti, if they don't, they're well disciplined Rikti" in RWZ to cheering them on. Maybe involving a space battle, and crashing the Rikti mothership into the Batallion mothership at the end for a daring and desperate boarding action that starts in the Rikti ship interior and ending in the Batallion ship.  

 

If Battalion ever gets made, and given that everyone seems to not feel a need for further power expansion, the HC devs could make the story arc involve cutting further access for the PC to the Well in some way. 

[Glacier Peak]

There's no one lead hero that is revolved around anymore - since the death of the old man, it was a game designed to make the player feel like they're the center of the universe and only they can stop the mcguffin.

[Mopery]

2 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

There's no one lead hero that is revolved around anymore - since the death of the old man, it was a game designed to make the player feel like they're the center of the universe and only they can stop the mcguffin.

Now I just gotta have t4 Immaculate Radial MacGuffin!

[Rigged]

9 hours ago, Greycat said:

 

*nod* and you'd have fewer and fewer people to do each tier of this subscription-grind content - and/or quite a few people getting PLd up who have no idea about the game, used to the "the game begins at the end" model of other MMOs.

 

Honestly, especially given how scabbed-on it feels, I wouldn't have been surprised if that ended up killing off the game if it had gone the way it was described. (I *already* wasn't fond of what I'd heard with the Battalion storyline.)

 

The same AMA revealed that the plan was for earlier tiers to become a new baseline you get for automatically. They did not intend for people to grind upwards from nothing for every character.

 

The idea was to produce a content treadmill, much like most MMOs have these days. It's actually a very good idea for game longevity, because progression content and goodies are what motivate the majority of customers. People who play MMOs solely for story are actually a minority, and the giants like WoW and FF14 know this - the majority of their actual gameplay content is a progression treadmill that they disguise using story. There are in fact a lot of people who skip through cutscenes in those games because they just want to get to the killing.

[Glacier Peak]

22 minutes ago, Rigged said:

 

The same AMA revealed that the plan was for earlier tiers to become a new baseline you get for automatically. They did not intend for people to grind upwards from nothing for every character.

 

The idea was to produce a content treadmill, much like most MMOs have these days. It's actually a very good idea for game longevity, because progression content and goodies are what motivate the majority of customers. People who play MMOs solely for story are actually a minority, and the giants like WoW and FF14 know this - the majority of their actual gameplay content is a progression treadmill that they disguise using story. There are in fact a lot of people who skip through cutscenes in those games because they just want to get to the killing.

I'd say this is pretty much my view of how I enjoy games - the story either has to be fantastic (I think Plague Tale, Long Dark, or Fire Watch quality) to get me to keep playing and replaying. Or the soundtrack has to be fire like Final Fantasy 15. Or there needs to be an incentive that's driven by progression, especially if it's an RPG. That's my cup of tea. 

[Yomo Kimyata]

I'm certainly not going to gatekeep, but I always found it a bit distracting from immersion that there are just so bloody many incarnate characters.  "Fartknocker27 defeats Hamidon!"

 

Personally (and I am NOT suggesting this!) I'd feel better if you could only have a small number of incarnates on any given account, like 2 or something, and you had to choose to "demote" one of your all powerful characters to promote another.  But instead I'm going to get Fartknocker28 up and running.

[Owl Girl]

3 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

I'm certainly not going to gatekeep, but I always found it a bit distracting from immersion that there are just so bloody many incarnate characters.  "Fartknocker27 defeats Hamidon!"

 

Personally (and I am NOT suggesting this!) I'd feel better if you could only have a small number of incarnates on any given account, like 2 or something, and you had to choose to "demote" one of your all powerful characters to promote another.  But instead I'm going to get Fartknocker28 up and running.

it's a weird thing about this universe: there aren't really any 'street level' heroes because they all end at the point of bending reality and getting something close to 'ultimate power'. you might have conceived the character as a Natural Dual Pistols/Martial Arts guy with a kevlar vest... but you're going to end up shooting lightning bolts and bringing people back from the dead!