Less restrictive Power Pools & additional enhancement slots

[UltraAlt]

3 minutes ago, Raikao said:

emojis without explanation are not civil.

 

Explain.

 

I see the whole point of the emoji response is to not have to post a full response and better than /jranger

[biostem]

I could go with a compromise, for instance, maybe from level 35, (41 maybe), and above, you can opt to get 3 more slots instead of taking another power, since by that point, some characters are "finished" with their powers, but more slots would be more helpful.

Edited August 10, 2023 by biostem

[honoroit]

25 minutes ago, Raikao said:

 

Where to even start. I'm going to ignore the start for sure. I'm not interested in ad hominem.

 

You also seem to be speaking for the devs. Again you're not a dev. I don't care unless there is a DEV POST explicitely stating "we wont change power pools like that" or "we wont add slots".

 

If I don't speak for the majority, then you don't speak for the devs either. That's a non-starter.

 

You also point to "how it was intended" 20 years ago for one thing in your favor and for another thing not in your favor. Like the IO changes where totally intended, extra slots where not. Was removing Fitness intended? Have we asked the design head from 20 years ago? Can you point me to HC devs confirming this somewhere?

 

We have added TaskForces, powersets, an entire AT, made balance changes. Where is this line of "only intended changes from back in the day"? Is there dev manifesto from 2005 I haven't seen?

 

I just don't find this argument convincing. Clearly the devs do make changes. Clearly they can't know the intent from 20 years ago.

 

And more importantly: At some point you'd stop doing patches or adding things wouldn't you? It's just too vague.

 

they just like arguing it seems, and never complain about fitness, nor a new AT, nor new sets... some of the same ALSO want beanbag to be aim... its about what they want, couched as a grand arguement on balance, typically.

 

fighting dropping prereqs or reordering stupid kick/punch to 3rd would do only 1 thing: free a power choice, replacing something (nearly all) people keep barred as a brawl replacement 1 slotted and use for lols, or simply unbar.

 

kick/punch in fighting is a tax, and in the way of build variety opened by it not being a wasted prereq.

 

the cost balance around making you waste a power to get tough/weave, is silly, in my opinion.

 

and not FUN. 

 

remember, as debated endlessly - its supposed to be fun.

 

it doesnt rock your sock or boat balance wise at all - youd just have the ability to do something useful with what now a power choice you make and dread at the level up screen.

 

'oh hells, fine, its kick/punch now and immediate unbar or... f it'  <-- thats not fun.

Edited August 10, 2023 by honoroit

[Raikao]

5 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

 

Explain.

 

I see the whole point of the emoji response is to not have to post a full response and better than /jranger

 

Usually I find this thinking a little overblown, but getting a "haha" when you didn't post anything funny, comes off a little condescending. Thumbs up or down are already annoying enough. Back in the day we had forums and you had to say something to chime in.

 

Now we have up and downvotes, which don't promote discussion and lead to hivemind mentality. This might be a rather personal feeling of course. And I use them myself, don't get me wrong, but for "I agree" or "I disagree" without posting. I think that's what you mean.

A lot of the other emojis don't fulfil such a purpose though and often used to be snide.

[UltraAlt]

6 hours ago, Raikao said:

That doesn't change the fact I'd like it to be in the game.

 

I don't want the game changed in that way, but that doesn't mean you can't want the changes.

 

My reasoning for both?

They fundamentally changes game design.

Extra slots would be an end-game slap-on that is already dealt with through the Incarnate system.

Removing the power-pick build up structure in pools takes away from a tiering system that was intentionally put into the game by the DEVs.

Want the more powerful power? You need to have these skills in order to get it. It is very much in character conception/development to have the pool powers function this way.

The Power Pools are basically additional skill sets to "flesh out" a character.

 

These are my viewpoints. I understand that you and others have different viewpoints.

[SwitchFade]

3 hours ago, honoroit said:

 

yes. same crew.

For both of you, who seem to have this bias...

 

No one shoots anything down, people speak their mind.

 

Devs don't change it because... Not good ideas.

 

That's it.

[arcane]

Yeah no thank you

[honoroit]

1 minute ago, Raikao said:

 

Usually I find this thinking a little overblown, but getting a "haha" when you didn't post anything funny, comes off a little condescending. Thumbs up or down are already annoying enough. Back in the day we had forums and you had to say something to chime in.

 

Now we have up and downvotes, which don't promote discussion and lead to hivemind mentality. This might be a rather personal feeling of course. And I use them myself, don't get me wrong, but for "I agree" or "I disagree" without posting. I think that's what you mean.

A lot of the other emojis don't fulfil such a purpose though and often used to be snide.

 

lap it up, i get that on mine from 2 particular users who like to support some rather awful sentiment quite regularly.

 

they kind of just mark themselves. 

 

its like how people graffitti tag a thing, or urinate on it for some reason to exercise themselves of a way.

[UltraAlt]

1 minute ago, Raikao said:

but getting a "haha" when you didn't post anything funny

 

I was just told in another thread - that something I replied to seriously - was apparently meant as a joke that I didn't consider to be a joke based on how it was written.

There could have very well been something you said that someone else felt to be funny for whatever reason.

 

4 minutes ago, Raikao said:

Now we have up and downvotes, which don't promote discussion and lead to hivemind mentality. This might be a rather personal feeling of course.

 

I think you are taking it a bit hard. 

I have one player that still stalks me and down votes whatever I post if they run into it ... even though I have them on ignore.

 

6 minutes ago, Raikao said:

A lot of the other emojis don't fulfil such a purpose though and often used to be snide.

 

When I first joined Homecoming, I'm pretty sure it was just the "like" and "thanks". I'm not sure when the laugh, sad, and confused were added. Then the thumbs-up and thumbs-down were added. There was a discussion at that point.

 

Personally, I feel like the thumbs-down is just a /jranger without the post.

But it remained and people have been using it to express their disagreement with something.

Each person shouldn't always have to post a detailed response if they are against something. It isn't a personal attack against you when they disagree with you ... until it turns into a personal attack ... and then I suggest putting them on ignore.

I currently have far more players on ignore than I ever did on the CoH forums before the Sunset. That being said - I have rarely ever (if ever) put someone on ignore simply because they thumbs-downed me frequently.

 

People are going to disagree. The emoji keeps it from becoming a personal attack unless you consider emojis to be a personal attack. I believe that a 99% of the forum posters aren't using the emojis as personal attacks against anyone.

[SwitchFade]

11 minutes ago, honoroit said:

 

lap it up, i get that on mine from 2 particular users who like to support some rather awful sentiment quite regularly.

 

they kind of just mark themselves. 

 

its like how people graffitti tag a thing, or urinate on it for some reason to exercise themselves of a way.

Or post in very weird grammar and sentence structure, so that no one exactly knows what they are trying to say?

 

Or post a metric crap-ton of gifs?

[SwitchFade]

1 minute ago, UltraAlt said:

 

I was just told in another thread - that something I replied to seriously - was apparently meant as a joke that I didn't consider to be a joke based on how it was written.

There could have very well been something you said that someone else felt to be funny for whatever reason.

 

 

I think you are taking it a bit hard. 

I have one player that still stalks me and down votes whatever I post if they run into it ... even though I have them on ignore.

 

 

When I first joined Homecoming, I'm pretty sure it was just the "like" and "thanks". I'm not sure when the laugh, sad, and confused were added. Then the thumbs-up and thumbs-down were added. There was a discussion at that point.

 

Personally, I feel like the thumbs-down is just a /jranger without the post.

But it remained and people have been using it to express their disagreement with something.

Each person shouldn't always have to post a detailed response if they are against something. It isn't a personal attack against you when they disagree with you ... until it turns into a personal attack ... and then I suggest putting them on ignore.

I currently have far more players on ignore than I ever did on the CoH forums before the Sunset. That being said - I have rarely ever (if ever) put someone on ignore simply because they thumbs-downed me frequently.

 

People are going to disagree. The emoji keeps it from becoming a personal attack unless you consider emojis to be a personal attack. I believe that a 99% of the forum posters aren't using the emojis as personal attacks against anyone.

I formally request attack emojis. So I can use them on ultra.

[Luminara]

Let's see...

• Sense of entitlement ✔️
• Easily offended ✔️
• Issuing rules for how others can speak ✔️
• Demands an answer from the developers ✔️

[Luminara]

19 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

I formally request attack emojis. So I can use them on ultra.

🔪

[Saiyajinzoningen]

1 hour ago, biostem said:

I could go with a compromise, for instance, maybe from level 35, (41 maybe), and above, you can opt to get 3 more slots instead of taking another power, since by that point, some characters are "finished" with their powers, but more slots would be more helpful.

 

this is an interesting idea. I've never been in the situation you describe but being able to choose between slots and powers might be neat.

[Greycat]

4 hours ago, Raikao said:

Hyperbole much? Then are you ok with Fitness being gone? The game's not hardcore enough man. Are you doing no inspiration +4/x8 ITF solo then? I've seen a guy on youtube to that. Looked impressive.

 

See we can all go there or we can have a civil disussion? Why would this change make the game easier? Are you ok with other changes that made the game easier? Explain your position so we can actually talk.

1. It's a touch hyperbolic, sure. But that's because the suggestion is silly with the state of the game.  So it's only a touch.

 

2. Fitness is not "gone." If you open up your enhancement window, you'll see it *right there,* all four powers. Fitness was *very* hard to get around not needing (actually needing - let me tell you about my BS/SR Scrapper or Fire/Storm controller running out of END *every fight* on SOs... with endurance reduction slotted frequently,) and getting TO that required two other power picks from a pool, so it was made inherent. Given IOs, I half wonder if it could be made non inherent. That said, yes, I had characters at shutdown from before that change was made that still had a build with non-inherent Fitness. They could have gone another route - like massively reducing or rebalancing END costs and/or adjusting recovery - but the route they took was taken on live, and it's part of the game.

 

3. Never said anything about "not hardcore enough." That is the exact opposite of (a) what I said (it's already sleepwalk-easy) and (b) isn't something your suggestion would move the game towards, anyway.

 

4. "Are you doing no inspiration +4/x8 ITF solo then? I've seen a guy on youtube to that. Looked impressive."

 

Given how *simple* it is for people to farm up a character and run +4/x8 ITFs, especially with incarnates and level boosts? No, that's not particularly impressive these days. Look around some. The ITF *used* to take time to run. It *used* to be difficult. People, even at 50, *used* to have a hard time fighting Romulus.  Hell, even respecs had an even-odds chance of having team wipes at every level. Now? They're run in, what, 15 minutes? 20? They might as well have a Romulus vending machine at the end that just dispenses merits.  Apex/Tin Mage is run as a duo in less than an hour - less than half an hour, as I recall, to finish both in total. Hamidon? Big end game raid that used to threaten team wipes? Everlasting runs pairs of them three times a day, day in day out (with, I believe, another one earlier on Saturday.) They're usually done in about half an hour. There's almost never a problem with them, certainly not with *finishing* them. Usually the biggest problem is Hami taking longer to spawn than usual.

 

*The game does not need to be made EVEN EASIER.*

 

5. " Why would this change make the game easier? " ... are you *even serious* asking that? Have you thought through what these suggestions would do?  "Oh, no, I have to take Boxing or Kick and probably not slot it." And take... what, Adrenal Booster with no prerequisites, as well as Hasten? (+Tohit +Dmg +Rech +Special.) That took all of two seconds to think of. No prerequisite, after all. Rune of Protection? Quick one pool, one power pick.  One pick Fold Space.

 

Of course, then we'd "have to" get rid of the limitation on the number of power pools, I'm sure. And no, I'm not reaching or making that up. That's *already* been suggested a few times.  I'm sure we'd get people complaining about "wasted picks because there's nothing else good in the pools" once they've taken the "must have" (hint, they're not) powers.

 

6. " Are you ok with other changes that made the game easier?"

 

Depends which changes. Some, sure. Stone Armor's movement penalties were thematic, but overdue to be reexamined and/or removed, for instance (or have them be granted an inherent teleport, because that was pretty close to a must-take.)  Frankly, I'm not with quite a few of them. I positively hate the power level availability change that was put in recently. It's made leveling *less* fun to me, because... surprise surprise, I'm able to take top tier powers and wipe out enemies that weren't designed with them in mind.  I think set bonuses should be reduced to a "rule of 3" from a rule of 5 to try to veer back into having *some* semblance of default challenge. I think Incarnate powers should be toned down outside of Incarnate content. But, I've pretty much resigned myself to the state of the game. I know those changes won't happen, so I play in the reality that the game that exists is the game in the current state.  I don't make "builds," I don't really use Mids, I don't aim to perma-this-cap-that, and I'll still find myself going "Oh, wait, the team turned left five minutes ago" while blasting through mobs without much of a care.

 

I *Prefer* the game having people have to make choices, yes. I feel *much* more satisfied if I have a good build knowing I had to decide "is power X worth a pick of a pool and these other powers?" and that I'm not just cramming every nuke, shield and godmode trick in that I can. Yes, I even prefer having dangerous Cysts and unresistable Nictus damage from Quantums and Voids on my Kheldians. It made me have to pay attention. And yes, I preferred actually having crashing nukes and T9s, so using them was something you had to think about - instead of just ignoring the T9 armors because you're already untouchable thanks to set bonuses and don't need them.

 

The game's already sleepwalk easy. It's certainly not any sort of *challenge* that keeps me logging in. It's because I love the world, the character creator, and the RP with my friends. And yes, I know there are "hard modes" for some TFs. I don't care. I don't need the rewards, and the ones I've done have been more tedious than challenging or fun. Prismatics? I don't care about the costumes, and don't generally need the INF. Merits? For what? I used to chase those (or, before, recipe drops from TFs) because, again, there was *some* challenge that needed them. There isn't now. And merits drop freely. And yes, I *do* have characters on SOs only - with other restrictions. I know how they used to play. Even with that, the game's nowhere near as challenging and requires nowhere near the thought. (No, I don't run them with characters with IOs. It'd make the point of running them that way moot.)

 

(Edit) Or, hell. How about soloing GMs? First person that did it, it was an *accomplishment.* Illusion controller - I *believe* on SOs. Took a long time (though they were tackling Lusca.) It was something to brag about. Now? You can probably point out multiple people who do it regularly when bored. A team - not even a full team - can go GM hunting and rack up a pile of merits without much effort, a few minutes per GM.

 

So, no. The game does NOT need to be made even easier, which yes, this would do, you shouldn't even have to pretend to have to ask that. You do NOT need even less standing in the way of a beyond-godmode build. And no, from someone who *does* do RP builds and makes non-optimal choices (for instance - picking Leviathan mastery because of a character's backstory... or because they're a cat and a cat throwing fish around amuses me)  and still can sleep through missions, RP is not a reason for it either and I'm personally insulted that that was even thrown in as a reason.

 

If I want the sort of godmode this'll give access to, I'll create an AE, throw the toughest mobs I can in, go in in test mode, turn invincibility on and walk around clicking the "Kill target" button. I've done it. It's amusing for about a minute. Maybe two if I've had a particularly annoying day. As far as I'm concerned, the game's about a quarter inch away from that as it is.

 

 

 

Aren't you glad you asked for my position? Trust me, *this is toned down and not even close to everything I think.*

 

 

 

Oh. Yeah. You had a thing on extra slots.

As I'm recalling, it was tested and broke things badly. Though at one point, there was a bug in respecs for Kheldians that one person took advantage of back in the day - as I'm remembering (might be slightly mistaken on exactly what they did as far as slotting,) they put all their slots in one power and one-shot Hamidon. That - obviously - got fixed.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Greycat

[honoroit]

19 minutes ago, Greycat said:

Oh, no, I have to take Boxing or Kick and probably not slot it.

 

ya, its awful isnt it.

 

think of the build diversity we miss out on because punch.

 

(and no dont drop all prereqs... but on fighting yes, or reorder away punch and kick)

Edited August 10, 2023 by honoroit

[Rudra]

49 minutes ago, Greycat said:

(for instance - picking Leviathan mastery because of a character's backstory... or because they're a cat and a cat throwing fish around amuses me) 

How did I never think of doing that with my felines?!?!?!?! 😆

 

50 minutes ago, Greycat said:

Oh. Yeah. You had a thing on extra slots.

As I'm recalling, it was tested and broke things badly

If I recall correctly, that was for adding a 7th slot to a power. I may be wrong though.

[Greycat]

1 hour ago, honoroit said:

 

ya, its awful isnt it.

 

think of the build diversity we miss out on because punch.

 

 

None.

[Raikao]

14 hours ago, Luminara said:

Let's see...

• Sense of entitlement ✔️
• Easily offended ✔️
• Issuing rules for how others can speak ✔️
• Demands an answer from the developers ✔️

 

Let's see

 

faithful conversation? Nope. Just ad honimen and spouting bullshit, yup must be a troll.

 

It's hilarious that you think I would ever be "offended". You're barking up the wrong tree so hard it's just comical.

 

I didn't "issue" rules either, I just tried to remind you of them. 

And I didn't demand answers from the devs, I told you I don't believe your shitty arguments when you "speak for the devs" unless you link a dev post saying exactly that.

 

Are you cappable of having a conversation about this without being this riled up?

Edited August 11, 2023 by Raikao

[Raikao]

11 hours ago, Greycat said:

1. It's a touch hyperbolic, sure. But that's because the suggestion is silly with the state of the game.  So it's only a touch.

 

2. Fitness is not "gone." If you open up your enhancement window, you'll see it *right there,* all four powers. Fitness was *very* hard to get around not needing (actually needing - let me tell you about my BS/SR Scrapper or Fire/Storm controller running out of END *every fight* on SOs... with endurance reduction slotted frequently,) and getting TO that required two other power picks from a pool, so it was made inherent. Given IOs, I half wonder if it could be made non inherent. That said, yes, I had characters at shutdown from before that change was made that still had a build with non-inherent Fitness. They could have gone another route - like massively reducing or rebalancing END costs and/or adjusting recovery - but the route they took was taken on live, and it's part of the game.

 

3. Never said anything about "not hardcore enough." That is the exact opposite of (a) what I said (it's already sleepwalk-easy) and (b) isn't something your suggestion would move the game towards, anyway.

 

4. "Are you doing no inspiration +4/x8 ITF solo then? I've seen a guy on youtube to that. Looked impressive."

 

Given how *simple* it is for people to farm up a character and run +4/x8 ITFs, especially with incarnates and level boosts? No, that's not particularly impressive these days. Look around some. The ITF *used* to take time to run. It *used* to be difficult. People, even at 50, *used* to have a hard time fighting Romulus.  Hell, even respecs had an even-odds chance of having team wipes at every level. Now? They're run in, what, 15 minutes? 20? They might as well have a Romulus vending machine at the end that just dispenses merits.  Apex/Tin Mage is run as a duo in less than an hour - less than half an hour, as I recall, to finish both in total. Hamidon? Big end game raid that used to threaten team wipes? Everlasting runs pairs of them three times a day, day in day out (with, I believe, another one earlier on Saturday.) They're usually done in about half an hour. There's almost never a problem with them, certainly not with *finishing* them. Usually the biggest problem is Hami taking longer to spawn than usual.

 

*The game does not need to be made EVEN EASIER.*

 

5. " Why would this change make the game easier? " ... are you *even serious* asking that? Have you thought through what these suggestions would do?  "Oh, no, I have to take Boxing or Kick and probably not slot it." And take... what, Adrenal Booster with no prerequisites, as well as Hasten? (+Tohit +Dmg +Rech +Special.) That took all of two seconds to think of. No prerequisite, after all. Rune of Protection? Quick one pool, one power pick.  One pick Fold Space.

 

Of course, then we'd "have to" get rid of the limitation on the number of power pools, I'm sure. And no, I'm not reaching or making that up. That's *already* been suggested a few times.  I'm sure we'd get people complaining about "wasted picks because there's nothing else good in the pools" once they've taken the "must have" (hint, they're not) powers.

 

6. " Are you ok with other changes that made the game easier?"

 

Depends which changes. Some, sure. Stone Armor's movement penalties were thematic, but overdue to be reexamined and/or removed, for instance (or have them be granted an inherent teleport, because that was pretty close to a must-take.)  Frankly, I'm not with quite a few of them. I positively hate the power level availability change that was put in recently. It's made leveling *less* fun to me, because... surprise surprise, I'm able to take top tier powers and wipe out enemies that weren't designed with them in mind.  I think set bonuses should be reduced to a "rule of 3" from a rule of 5 to try to veer back into having *some* semblance of default challenge. I think Incarnate powers should be toned down outside of Incarnate content. But, I've pretty much resigned myself to the state of the game. I know those changes won't happen, so I play in the reality that the game that exists is the game in the current state.  I don't make "builds," I don't really use Mids, I don't aim to perma-this-cap-that, and I'll still find myself going "Oh, wait, the team turned left five minutes ago" while blasting through mobs without much of a care.

 

I *Prefer* the game having people have to make choices, yes. I feel *much* more satisfied if I have a good build knowing I had to decide "is power X worth a pick of a pool and these other powers?" and that I'm not just cramming every nuke, shield and godmode trick in that I can. Yes, I even prefer having dangerous Cysts and unresistable Nictus damage from Quantums and Voids on my Kheldians. It made me have to pay attention. And yes, I preferred actually having crashing nukes and T9s, so using them was something you had to think about - instead of just ignoring the T9 armors because you're already untouchable thanks to set bonuses and don't need them.

 

The game's already sleepwalk easy. It's certainly not any sort of *challenge* that keeps me logging in. It's because I love the world, the character creator, and the RP with my friends. And yes, I know there are "hard modes" for some TFs. I don't care. I don't need the rewards, and the ones I've done have been more tedious than challenging or fun. Prismatics? I don't care about the costumes, and don't generally need the INF. Merits? For what? I used to chase those (or, before, recipe drops from TFs) because, again, there was *some* challenge that needed them. There isn't now. And merits drop freely. And yes, I *do* have characters on SOs only - with other restrictions. I know how they used to play. Even with that, the game's nowhere near as challenging and requires nowhere near the thought. (No, I don't run them with characters with IOs. It'd make the point of running them that way moot.)

 

(Edit) Or, hell. How about soloing GMs? First person that did it, it was an *accomplishment.* Illusion controller - I *believe* on SOs. Took a long time (though they were tackling Lusca.) It was something to brag about. Now? You can probably point out multiple people who do it regularly when bored. A team - not even a full team - can go GM hunting and rack up a pile of merits without much effort, a few minutes per GM.

 

So, no. The game does NOT need to be made even easier, which yes, this would do, you shouldn't even have to pretend to have to ask that. You do NOT need even less standing in the way of a beyond-godmode build. And no, from someone who *does* do RP builds and makes non-optimal choices (for instance - picking Leviathan mastery because of a character's backstory... or because they're a cat and a cat throwing fish around amuses me)  and still can sleep through missions, RP is not a reason for it either and I'm personally insulted that that was even thrown in as a reason.

 

If I want the sort of godmode this'll give access to, I'll create an AE, throw the toughest mobs I can in, go in in test mode, turn invincibility on and walk around clicking the "Kill target" button. I've done it. It's amusing for about a minute. Maybe two if I've had a particularly annoying day. As far as I'm concerned, the game's about a quarter inch away from that as it is.

 

 

 

Aren't you glad you asked for my position? Trust me, *this is toned down and not even close to everything I think.*

 

 

 

Oh. Yeah. You had a thing on extra slots.

As I'm recalling, it was tested and broke things badly. Though at one point, there was a bug in respecs for Kheldians that one person took advantage of back in the day - as I'm remembering (might be slightly mistaken on exactly what they did as far as slotting,) they put all their slots in one power and one-shot Hamidon. That - obviously - got fixed.

 

Thanks for clarifying your position and reasons. First of all. You're still clearly passionate about it, but I appreciate the actuall arguments and reasoning.

 

It seems like you think the game is easy on one hand, but then also do a lot of content in groups. Can we agree that the game isn't actually easy when going solo? Especially before lvl 50?

 

I've never felt "op" on a low level Mastermind running around Mercy Island / Port Oakes. Or on a Stalker, or a Blaster. Granted I have not played every AT or every powerset. But the only times I felt the game was "easy" was in groups. 

 

Which is also a good argument against the changes I want, interestingly enough. Because even a change that I think is small (I mostly play solo) would be x8 worse when everyone in a group could take a one slot Assault/Fold Space/Tactics/whatever instead of Kick (assuming they all use Tough/Weave).

 

So I will concede that point. Yes it will make the game easier overall. But you also seem to think it's too easy now anyway. If the hami raid takes 3 minutes less, why is that so bad? You don't seem to be doing any hardmode or challenge stuff either.

 

It's just weird to me, that people shout powercreep so vehemently, and then don't do any content that's hard either.

 

It feels like when people are super pissed about class changes (buffs or nerfs) in FFXIV and don't even savage raid. Like does it matter for PUGs doing FDB or ITF?

 

Then we have the changes where you don't have to pick the T1 power in your secondary anymore. Which buffed certain powersets A LOT in my opinion. And it's the same idea. I don't need to pick a (to me) useless T1 and can pick the T2 instead. It's massive on MMs and Stalkers at least from what I made builds for.

 

Skipping a T1 attack in your secondary, picking a movement skill at lvl 4, fitness being inherent. 

 

But having to pick Punch to get Tough/Weave just can't be done.

 

Seems to me like it would only be a matter of time.

Edited August 11, 2023 by Raikao

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, Raikao said:

Can we agree that the game isn't actually easy when going solo? Especially before lvl 50?

Except it is. I'm almost always playing solo. The game is easy. It was meant to encourage team play, yes, but it also had to be designed so that solo players can play too. And that was before all the power creep. The game is very easy.

 

1 hour ago, Raikao said:

I've never felt "op" on a low level Mastermind running around Mercy Island / Port Oakes. Or on a Stalker, or a Blaster. Granted I have not played every AT or every powerset. But the only times I felt the game was "easy" was in groups. 

Mastermind: Leave pets in Defensive Follow, and they absorb part of the damage meant for you. While still smacking everything to kingdom come. Stalker: Assassin Strike and Placate are your friends. Blaster: is mez immune with their basic attacks, so blast your opponents into oblivion. I don't play Controllers because they bore me and I don't play Tankers because I prefer to get my attacks faster. (And I still won't play Kheldians.) However, every AT I've run has had absolutely no problems clearing anything. Now if you're trying to solo +4/x8 at low levels before you've fully slotted your character at level 50? Yeah, that's not going to happen.

 

1 hour ago, Raikao said:

It's just weird to me, that people shout powercreep so vehemently, and then don't do any content that's hard either.

The game is not balanced around Hard Mode content. So that argument is completely irrelevant to the discussion. Edit: In fact, Hard Mode content was added specifically because players were complaining the game was too easy.

Edited August 11, 2023 by Rudra

[Raikao]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Except it is. I'm almost always playing solo. The game is easy. It was meant to encourage team play, yes, but it also had to be designed so that solo players can play too. And that was before all the power creep. The game is very easy.

 

Mastermind: Leave pets in Defensive Follow, and they absorb part of the damage meant for you. While still smacking everything to kingdom come. Stalker: Assassin Strike and Placate are your friends. Blaster: is mez immune with their basic attacks, so blast your opponents into oblivion. I don't play Controllers because they bore me and I don't play Tankers because I prefer to get my attacks faster. (And I still won't play Kheldians.) However, every AT I've run has had absolutely no problems clearing anything. Now if you're trying to solo +4/x8 at low levels before you've fully slotted your character at level 50? Yeah, that's not going to happen.

 

The game is not balanced around Hard Mode content. So that argument is completely irrelevant to the discussion. Edit: In fact, Hard Mode content was added specifically because players were complaining the game was too easy.

 

I know how bodyguard mode works. I'm not sure we play the same game. I play mostly solo too, doing Mayhem MIssions on low level isn't easy. As a Stalker you suddenly get ambushed by mobs who know where you are. As a MM they come straight at you as well.

 

If you play on -1 then sure, the game's easy. But if you play at an appropiate difficulty, you sometimes get missions that are rather tricky. 

 

I just did a run through Praetoria on a Necro/Nature MM. I had it on -1/1 since I just wanted to get through missions faster, and was overlevelling anyway (I had to disable XP to do all the arcs). That was easy. But I also know the game, use the P2W Vendor.

 

I don't think you can generally call the game easy for new players. And as veteran players you can scale the difficulty. So the game is as easy as you make it. Same for challenge modes and hardmode content.

 

I just don't get it. Are you running missions on -1 and then complain about powercreep making the game too easy? What's the baseline here for this argument?

[Saiyajinzoningen]

[Greycat]

7 hours ago, Raikao said:

It seems like you think the game is easy on one hand, but then also do a lot of content in groups. Can we agree that the game isn't actually easy when going solo? Especially before lvl 50?

No, your assumption is incorrect.  I do mostly solo or small group stuff. I'll join in on an mothership raid (for instance) since, frankly, it's usually time spent BSing with up to 47 other people - the raids are mostly an excuse to get together. Also, I think you missed the "I'll be off mowing through enemies when the team turn left five minutes ago."

 

As mentioned, I don't "do builds." I'm not in any way a min/maxer. And yet I can still sit there and fight a team's worth of enemies solo for a while. That's a sign it's too easy.

 

As far as "before level 50?" You talk about taking a MM through Mercy... what would your suggested changes do to fix that? You definitely DON'T want tough/weave (for instance) at super low levels - the END cost on them is too high for nearly no benefit. And, frankly... yes, the game *is* still easy at that level if you pay the slightest bit of attention. It's more annoying than difficult, since you don't have many powers and might sit there waiting for *something* to recharge... but that's why we have Brawl and the P2W vendor's attacks.

7 hours ago, Raikao said:

So I will concede that point. Yes it will make the game easier overall. But you also seem to think it's too easy now anyway. If the hami raid takes 3 minutes less, why is that so bad? You don't seem to be doing any hardmode or challenge stuff either.

 

It's not that "it takes 3 minutes less" (and tough/weave wouldn't affect that, by the way - hami's attacks ignore that. You need the inspirations that drop from fighting monsters beforehand... which I counted in that time.) You seem to have missed the point that *they're run twice in 30ish minutes, three times a day,* when they used to actually take time and have risk. It's trivial now. It's not "put an hour aside for a single run."  Hami was the end game raid. Now he's a merit/hami-o/incarnate component vending machine. That's the point which you seem to have missed.

 

Content has *already* been trivialized, it doesn't need to be trivialized further. Especially for people who want to min/max, which isn't needed to begin with.

 

 

7 hours ago, Raikao said:

It's just weird to me, that people shout powercreep so vehemently, and then don't do any content that's hard either.

 

Because the "hard" content isn't interesting, *as I said,* and the rewards for it aren't particularly interesting to me either, *as I said.* I don't need merits. I'm not interested in prismatics for either costumes or money. It'd be a tedious grind (or rushing along following someone on a speed run, which I also don't find fun) for something I don't care about.  I'll bump up rep regularly. But that doesn't make general content harder. Just more tedious.

 

Content that's interesting to me? Even that's been made trivial. For instance, the "Prevent 30 fir Bolg from escaping" mission. I have an actual *goal* there. I used to feel good about zero escapes there - which, granted, I got fairly regularly. Now, with the power level availability changes? I get top tier powers from my primary to deal with it, which makes them even easier.  Now I just expect zero escapes, because that's what happens.

 

"More HP" or "More stuff piling on you" isn't that interesting. Most of the little gimmicks  that get added... aren't that interesting. Oh, you now have four whatevers buffing? Take 30 seconds to wipe those out, keep beating on the bag of HP you need to take out to finish the mission. 

 

And you're also ignoring part of what I said in my *original* post. I *want* content that I have to pay attention to. I play Kheldians. We *used* to have to pay attention to Quantums and Voids. We *used* to have Cysts spawning - live ones, as in they'd spit out Nictus in quantities related to team size. *THAT WAS TAKEN AWAY.* I no longer *have* my actually interesting, throughout-the-game hard mode, because people didn't want to actually have to pay attention. Voids and Quantums are now basically "oh, look, some extra XP from an extra mob." Even at low levels. Khelds used to *be* a hard mode - an actual one. Now they're just slightly trickier to slot than a normal AT.

 

 

7 hours ago, Raikao said:

Then we have the changes where you don't have to pick the T1 power in your secondary anymore. Which buffed certain powersets A LOT in my opinion. And it's the same idea. I don't need to pick a (to me) useless T1 and can pick the T2 instead. It's massive on MMs and Stalkers at least from what I made builds for.

 

"Which buffed certain powersets..." Are you sure that's an argument you want to make in *favor* of these when talking to someone who says the game is *already* too easy? And other than FF (with personal FF,) I've never really understood anyone saying the T1s on MM secondaries would be "useless," especially low level where they tend to be healing (typically the AOE, so you're healing yourself and your pets,) slowing/stopping enemies and/or debuffing them. Single target, sure, but they're still quite useful.  But, no, they're not as good for "I need to min/max and need to fit a LOTG in and ..."

 

And stalkers... the T1 in the secondary is *hide.* Part of the trio of powers that define a stalker. Part of what gives you the ability to control what and when you want to crit. You skip *that?* Let me reiterate... as someone who played stalkers from the COV beta on, you skip *hide.* At that point, make a brute or scrapper instead. You'll have your armor powerset then.

 

7 hours ago, Raikao said:

But having to pick Punch to get Tough/Weave just can't be done

 

Tough/weave is not required. People like bringing up fitness to compare. It's not even apples and oranges. It's apples and lug nuts. Tough/weave is not required. Tough/weave is a "I want I want I want" to min/max. Which isn't something that's needed to be done by default for anything in this game. So there 's *zero* reason to make it easier to get by skipping powers. So don't hold your breath.

 

Also I see the nice, insulting "Are you playing at -1" nonsense in other replies.  Such as...

5 hours ago, Raikao said:

I know how bodyguard mode works. I'm not sure we play the same game. I play mostly solo too, doing Mayhem MIssions on low level isn't easy. As a Stalker you suddenly get ambushed by mobs who know where you are. As a MM they come straight at you as well.

 

If you play on -1 then sure, the game's easy. But if you play at an appropiate difficulty, you sometimes get missions that are rather tricky. 

 

Mayhem missions on low level are insanely easy. I don't know how to even start thinking of them as difficult. Mayhem missions at *high* level are insanely easy. Even on a stalker, yes. Yes, even with ambushes that "know where you are." (Are you aware there are three types of ambush "logic?" There's go-to-location, go-to-player-location-at-spawn, and the player tracking one. Takes me moving all of a few feet to see which it is. It's *hilarious* to watch a "rescue" ambush run past you because you moved a few feet down the hall, in plain sight.) All you have to do is pay attention to what's going on. The people I see having trouble with them tend to just expect to rush through and ignore *all the clues about what's happening.*

 

There are almost no missions "At appropriate diffilculty" (have to throw that bit of insult in, huh) that are "tricky" in any real way. Ambushes are not "tricky." Controlling your aggro is not "tricky," it's a basic game skill. Protip: Put your NPC dialog in another window. Ambushes are almost never stealth ambushes, and will typically announce themselves with a line or more of dialog, which can give up to *several minutes* warning.  For my own amusement on mayhem missions, I'll often do exactly what Longbow says - "Stop right there, villain!" So I'll stop. And wait. And let them take the first shot. Then tell them "Thanks, that video footage of my compliance and you shooting anyway will be appreciated by my lawyer" before beating them down in "self defense." Which I can do without a min/max build at "appropriate difficulty" because the game's just not that hard to require one for that.

 

 

But if your response is this sort of nonsense, you don't want a conversation.

[Rudra]

6 hours ago, Raikao said:

I know how bodyguard mode works. I'm not sure we play the same game. I play mostly solo too, doing Mayhem MIssions on low level isn't easy. As a Stalker you suddenly get ambushed by mobs who know where you are. As a MM they come straight at you as well.

 

If you play on -1 then sure, the game's easy. But if you play at an appropiate difficulty, you sometimes get missions that are rather tricky. 

On an MM character? The mayhems are stupid easy at low level. I don't even plan a route to limit the ambushes on my way to the bank like I do with some other ATs. (Edit: Specifically my Dominators. I'm not very good at running support ATs.) I don't need to drop the difficulty to -1. I play at default difficulty. And if I'm feeling a little bold on my level 7 MM? I may even increase the difficulty. I absolutely never drop the difficulty when on a MM. However, I also don't skip my T1 secondaries on MMs since those are typically my AoE heal to keep myself and my pet in the fight. So yeah, I guess we are playing different games, because I find MMs to be easy mode for playing the game. All it takes is paying any attention at all to your pet(s) and giving your pet(s) support. Stalkers are definitely more annoying since the ambushes ignore your Hide ability. So when I see a notice of an ambush spawning, I make sure I'm not next to any other spawns and just butcher the ambushes when they get to me. Yes, some missions can get rather tricky, but that is mostly from multiple spawns being almost on top of each other in my experience, because I'm suddenly fighting an EB and still have 0 enhancements of any kind slotted, or because I have to find something that isn't showing on the map with lots and lots of little crannies the objective can be hidden in.

 

6 hours ago, Raikao said:

I just don't get it. Are you running missions on -1 and then complain about powercreep making the game too easy? What's the baseline here for this argument?

On my starting characters, I play at the default difficulty. (Game shows +0/x0, but it is really +0/x1). I typically leave my difficulty at that level unless I'm on a character I want greater rewards on per fight, at which point I increase the difficulty. My high level characters are run at +2/x4, +3/x2, or +4/x8 depending on the character AT and build unless the character is one I'm not interested in dealing with the slog with. My Praetorian characters used to have difficulty because the ambushes in Praetoria like to stack and quickly, but I haven't seen that happen any more even on the Resistance betrayal mission from Chloe or the Destroyers attack on TPN. Without those layered ambushes? Those missions are as easy as every other.

 

6 hours ago, Raikao said:

I don't think you can generally call the game easy for new players.

Any new player that may struggle with the game can find help on how to deal with the various situations the game throws at us in the Help channel, the Broadcast channel, the forums, the Discord, their teammates, and even just reading the tips that appear on the loading screen. As soon as they find out what the game does, they suddenly find themselves no longer struggling. And even if they don't avail themselves of the available tips and help? The game automatically loads Twinshot and Dr. Graves at level 6 so new players can run through yet another tutorial in case they skipped the starter tutorials and learn how things like current enhancements makes the game easier.

Edited August 11, 2023 by Rudra