Less restrictive Power Pools & additional enhancement slots

[Aracknight]

Just now, Rudra said:

Then you still have a pool pick available. If you want, you can still fit Fly in. Not saying you should. Not saying you have to. Not saying anything other than you do have that option.

I know how many pools i have relative to how many i can have.  I would prefer the power pick of something i would use vs the power pick i have to take (because reasons) that i do not and never will use that doesnt even serve a mule purpose (boxing/kick) vs maneuvers which while i do not activate, can hold a useful enhancement.

[SwitchFade]

33 minutes ago, Aracknight said:

I know how many pools i have relative to how many i can have.  I would prefer the power pick of something i would use vs the power pick i have to take (because reasons) that i do not and never will use that doesnt even serve a mule purpose (boxing/kick) vs maneuvers which while i do not activate, can hold a useful enhancement.

Uh, that's not what you said earlier. Now you're saying you could take it, but object. Before you said you can't because no choices left.

 

🐠

[arcane]

I gotta say: telling us you take every last power down to bad ones like Elude and then telling us you just have no options… well, it seems like you might be your own worst enemy when it comes to builds.

[honoroit]

why the poster wants to fly, is something they know. sounds fun.

 

none of their choices diminish what stands alone - fighing kick/punch is in the way, and becomes a dud pick with nearly every time fighting is chosen.

 

its like 'run/fly a little fast' / 'jump a little bit' before health and stamina in that regard.

[arcane]

9 minutes ago, honoroit said:

why the poster wants to fly, is something they know. sounds fun.

 

none of their choices diminish what stands alone - fighing kick/punch is in the way, and becomes a dud pick with nearly every time fighting is chosen.

 

its like 'run/fly a little fast' / 'jump a little bit' before health and stamina in that regard.

They can skip Fighting if it’s breaking the build, I guess. It’s really not that important to have Fighting.

[biostem]

11 minutes ago, honoroit said:

why the poster wants to fly, is something they know. sounds fun.

But in their own evaluation, they'd rather forego taking fly over taking boxing or kick/tough/weave, so I guess it isn't that important to them...

 

13 minutes ago, honoroit said:

none of their choices diminish what stands alone - fighing kick/punch is in the way, and becomes a dud pick with nearly every time fighting is chosen.

But they still value tough & weave enough to take them, so why not change that valuation instead of trying to rewrite the power pool?  Why is the onus on the game/devs/everyone else to accommodate them, instead of them adjusting their builds?

 

14 minutes ago, honoroit said:

its like 'run/fly a little fast' / 'jump a little bit' before health and stamina in that regard.

And back before fitness was made inherent, people often picked ONLY hurdle or swift, not both.  Making "natural builds" was also a thing, where people only took hurdle & cj as their travel power.  Even discounting that, the aspect of fitness that people really chased after was stamina, as there was really no other way of increasing your end recovery, and that is something impacting every character.

[kelika2]

1 hour ago, Greycat said:

... sorry, just found this funny, to be clear 😄

the frequency is going up the older i get

[Aracknight]

29 minutes ago, arcane said:

I gotta say: telling us you take every last power down to bad ones like Elude and then telling us you just have no options… well, it seems like you might be your own worst enemy when it comes to builds.

 

Some people think boxing and kick are great, and (checks notes) vital parts of their attack chain.   I dont.  I think elude is great, specifically for its +recovery.  You clearly dont.  

 

But dont insinuate i dont know how to build.  I built my Scrapper for a specific performance level, and achieved it after many years of trial and error both before and after the blip.

 

You know why you would or would not take a power.   Is it outside the realm of possibility that I can do the same?

 

This is a great example of the gatekeeping i referred to.  I took Elude so i must be stupid/bad/unworthy to understand why things are the way they are.

 

 

To clarify: i am not asking to be able to choose more power pools.  I am agreeing with the sentiment that pre-requisites to power pools could or should be retired, and provided what i hoped was insight into why that requeat didnt involve overtuning and unbalancing the game.

 

However, i see now, again, that it was foolish to do so.  

 

 

 

 

[Luminara]

8 minutes ago, Aracknight said:

I would prefer the power pick of something i would use vs the power pick i have to take (because reasons)

 

Reasons:

Limitations are necessary to create both a minimum expectation of character performance and to restrict maximum character performance.  A common approach to creating this kind of limitation is the "skill tree", in which moving up one branch cuts off access to another branch entirely, or limits how far the player can move on that other branch.  Developers place certain skills/powers/abilities in key locations, thereby guaranteeing that characters will always meet their minimum expectation of performance, which is the baseline they need to create content and ensure that said content will never be "too hard" for anyone.  Correspondingly, this tree structure also allows them to restrict players from accessing all of the "best" powers, which prevents players from trivializing content.

 

While we have a more freeform power selection system in Co*, the same basic design model is applied, and applicable.  Our characters are forced to meet minimum performance expectations via mandatory T1/T2 primary/secondary selections (Co*'s minimum performance expectation is "can deal damage").  Maximum performance expectations are restricted in a variety of ways, one of which is "You must have Pool_Power R, S or T before you can select Pool_Power U or V".  Without restrictions like this, developers can't create content which can challenge top performers without instantly crushing bottom performers.

 

Without both minimums and maximums of character performance, content cannot be balanced, and it is that balance that is of utmost importance.  Every other balance metric is measured by this one.  It's not about which archetype has the fastest time on pylons, or which primary, or which secondary, or even which attack chain, it's about the pylons being both defeatable and having the potential to defeat characters.  That's why HC has been selectively bringing the lowest under-performers upward, they've raised the minimum performance expectation and are aligning aspects of the game to match it.  That's also why HC has nerfed the strongest over-performers, the power sets and powers which single-handedly trivialized content in one way or another.

 

The prerequisites gating access to T3-T5 pool powers are one of the limitations which ensure that content balance is possible.  Not to frustrate players, or impinge on creativity, or because devs are dicks, but because they're part of the design approach which allows development of content.

 

Class dismissed.

[honoroit]

1 hour ago, Aracknight said:

...

 

However, i see now, again, that it was foolish to do so.  

 

 

 

 

 

it wasn't, it isn't - its just these conservator folks keep pushing back on all change (except beanbag -> aim, because they like that one)

honoroit - (best) vox populi, who's lungs are filled with honesty

Edited August 12, 2023 by honoroit

[SwitchFade]

1 minute ago, honoroit said:

 

it wasn't, it isn't - its just these conservator folks keep pushing back on all change (except beanbag -> aim, because they like that one)

You should make a toon named...

 

 

Hyperbole

[biostem]

19 minutes ago, honoroit said:

honoroit - (best) vox populi, who's lungs are filled with honesty

Are you trying to position yourself as the voice of the people?

 

[honoroit]

5 minutes ago, biostem said:

Are you trying to position yourself as the voice of the people?

 

 

vox was a good baddie in mobius final fantasy.

 

 

 

[biostem]

2 minutes ago, honoroit said:

vox was a good baddie in mobius final fantasy.

Perhaps, but you didn't just say "Vox", did you?

[honoroit]

Just now, biostem said:

Perhaps, but you didn't just say "Vox", did you?

as far as being super famous and speaking for the people as a whole, ya, probably. I'm honoroit!  you've probably heard of me in game. 

 

kind, magnanimous, noble forest spirit.  all those things.

 

 

 

but ya, kick/punch in the way of tough / weave gotta go, kupo.

[Rudra]

52 minutes ago, honoroit said:

its just these conservator folks keep pushing back on all change

There is only push back on change those pushing back against disagree with. And we even give the reasons why we do. (You may not like those reasons, but that does not invalidate them.)

 

53 minutes ago, honoroit said:

(except beanbag -> aim, because they like that one)

I am still opposed to replacing Beanbag with Aim. And for the exact reason you cited. Because having Beanbag instead of Aim means we have power sets that aren't all clones of each other. As well as the fact there are players that take and use it, even if they are themselves a minority of the players using the power set, so we have no right to take that away from them.

 

(As for your previous comment about things being all about what we want? What about changing things to make it all about what you want and forget those that are already enjoying the game and would be put out by the proposed changes? You talk like you have a moral high ground, except you are doing the exact same thing. Pitching an idea that you want, and anyone that disagrees with that is obviously not fun, part of a cartel, a dinosaur, or... what other things have you called us so far? I've lost track.)

 

57 minutes ago, honoroit said:

honoroit - (best) vox populi, who's lungs are filled with honesty

Seriously? Best voice of the people? Because only you and those that agree with you are the voices of the people and those that disagree are not? Because those of us on the forums aren't a minority voice of the player base regardless of which side of any debate we stand on?

 

And looking back over this post, we have ventured well off topic. Instead of trying to justify a change and debate it, you have deviated into attacking others.

[honoroit]

15 minutes ago, Rudra said:

There is only push back on change those pushing back against disagree with. And we even give the reasons why we do. (You may not like those reasons, but that does not invalidate them.)

 

I am still opposed to replacing Beanbag with Aim. And for the exact reason you cited. Because having Beanbag instead of Aim means we have power sets that aren't all clones of each other. As well as the fact there are players that take and use it, even if they are themselves a minority of the players using the power set, so we have no right to take that away from them.

 

(As for your previous comment about things being all about what we want? What about changing things to make it all about what you want and forget those that are already enjoying the game and would be put out by the proposed changes? You talk like you have a moral high ground, except you are doing the exact same thing. Pitching an idea that you want, and anyone that disagrees with that is obviously not fun, part of a cartel, a dinosaur, or... what other things have you called us so far? I've lost track.)

 

Seriously? Best voice of the people? Because only you and those that agree with you are the voices of the people and those that disagree are not? Because those of us on the forums aren't a minority voice of the player base regardless of which side of any debate we stand on?

 

And looking back over this post, we have ventured well off topic. Instead of trying to justify a change and debate it, you have deviated into attacking others.

 

you should watch 'moxxie's bad trip song' and think about how wound up you get 🙂

 

45 minutes ago, honoroit said:

but ya, kick/punch in the way of tough / weave gotta go, kupo.

 

[Rudra]

21 minutes ago, honoroit said:

 

you should watch 'moxxie's bad trip song' and think about how wound up you get 🙂

 

 

Okay, I watched it. And my response is... what... the hell... was that?!

 

(Edit: Don't get me wrong. It was a fun watch, but what the hell was it?!)

Edited August 12, 2023 by Rudra

[honoroit]

3 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Okay, I watched it. And my response is... what... the hell... was that?!

 

(Edit: Don't get me wrong. It was a fun watch, but what the hell was it?!)

 

helluva boss - a youtube show. its quite good. its about assassins for hire, who live in hell, and kill other demons for cash.

[biostem]

36 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Okay, I watched it. And my response is... what... the hell... was that?!

Helluva Boss and Hazbin Hotel are quite good - but definitey not for children.  

[biostem]

44 minutes ago, Rudra said:

It was a fun watch

The fight scenes are quite good as well:

 

 

[Zect]

There were already 5 thumbs down by the time I came round to add mine. Great work, everyone!

 

For the OP, I suggest exploring build design principles a little. Once you're more familiar with the constraints that builds operate under, you'll appreciate a lot more why this change would be significantly imbalancing.

[BrandX]

6 hours ago, arcane said:

They can skip Fighting if it’s breaking the build, I guess. It’s really not that important to have Fighting.

 

Make a Peacebringer and never need the Fighting Pool! 🙂

[PeregrineFalcon]

12 hours ago, honoroit said:

as far as being super famous and speaking for the people as a whole, ya, probably. I'm honoroit!  you've probably heard of me in game.

You know, if you have to keep telling people how famous you are, then you aren't famous.

[Raikao]

On 8/11/2023 at 7:03 PM, Greycat said:

No, your assumption is incorrect.  I do mostly solo or small group stuff. I'll join in on an mothership raid (for instance) since, frankly, it's usually time spent BSing with up to 47 other people - the raids are mostly an excuse to get together. Also, I think you missed the "I'll be off mowing through enemies when the team turn left five minutes ago."

 

As mentioned, I don't "do builds." I'm not in any way a min/maxer. And yet I can still sit there and fight a team's worth of enemies solo for a while. That's a sign it's too easy.

 

As far as "before level 50?" You talk about taking a MM through Mercy... what would your suggested changes do to fix that? You definitely DON'T want tough/weave (for instance) at super low levels - the END cost on them is too high for nearly no benefit. And, frankly... yes, the game *is* still easy at that level if you pay the slightest bit of attention. It's more annoying than difficult, since you don't have many powers and might sit there waiting for *something* to recharge... but that's why we have Brawl and the P2W vendor's attacks.

 

It's not that "it takes 3 minutes less" (and tough/weave wouldn't affect that, by the way - hami's attacks ignore that. You need the inspirations that drop from fighting monsters beforehand... which I counted in that time.) You seem to have missed the point that *they're run twice in 30ish minutes, three times a day,* when they used to actually take time and have risk. It's trivial now. It's not "put an hour aside for a single run."  Hami was the end game raid. Now he's a merit/hami-o/incarnate component vending machine. That's the point which you seem to have missed.

 

Content has *already* been trivialized, it doesn't need to be trivialized further. Especially for people who want to min/max, which isn't needed to begin with.

 

 

 

Because the "hard" content isn't interesting, *as I said,* and the rewards for it aren't particularly interesting to me either, *as I said.* I don't need merits. I'm not interested in prismatics for either costumes or money. It'd be a tedious grind (or rushing along following someone on a speed run, which I also don't find fun) for something I don't care about.  I'll bump up rep regularly. But that doesn't make general content harder. Just more tedious.

 

Content that's interesting to me? Even that's been made trivial. For instance, the "Prevent 30 fir Bolg from escaping" mission. I have an actual *goal* there. I used to feel good about zero escapes there - which, granted, I got fairly regularly. Now, with the power level availability changes? I get top tier powers from my primary to deal with it, which makes them even easier.  Now I just expect zero escapes, because that's what happens.

 

"More HP" or "More stuff piling on you" isn't that interesting. Most of the little gimmicks  that get added... aren't that interesting. Oh, you now have four whatevers buffing? Take 30 seconds to wipe those out, keep beating on the bag of HP you need to take out to finish the mission. 

 

And you're also ignoring part of what I said in my *original* post. I *want* content that I have to pay attention to. I play Kheldians. We *used* to have to pay attention to Quantums and Voids. We *used* to have Cysts spawning - live ones, as in they'd spit out Nictus in quantities related to team size. *THAT WAS TAKEN AWAY.* I no longer *have* my actually interesting, throughout-the-game hard mode, because people didn't want to actually have to pay attention. Voids and Quantums are now basically "oh, look, some extra XP from an extra mob." Even at low levels. Khelds used to *be* a hard mode - an actual one. Now they're just slightly trickier to slot than a normal AT.

 

 

 

"Which buffed certain powersets..." Are you sure that's an argument you want to make in *favor* of these when talking to someone who says the game is *already* too easy? And other than FF (with personal FF,) I've never really understood anyone saying the T1s on MM secondaries would be "useless," especially low level where they tend to be healing (typically the AOE, so you're healing yourself and your pets,) slowing/stopping enemies and/or debuffing them. Single target, sure, but they're still quite useful.  But, no, they're not as good for "I need to min/max and need to fit a LOTG in and ..."

 

And stalkers... the T1 in the secondary is *hide.* Part of the trio of powers that define a stalker. Part of what gives you the ability to control what and when you want to crit. You skip *that?* Let me reiterate... as someone who played stalkers from the COV beta on, you skip *hide.* At that point, make a brute or scrapper instead. You'll have your armor powerset then.

 

 

Tough/weave is not required. People like bringing up fitness to compare. It's not even apples and oranges. It's apples and lug nuts. Tough/weave is not required. Tough/weave is a "I want I want I want" to min/max. Which isn't something that's needed to be done by default for anything in this game. So there 's *zero* reason to make it easier to get by skipping powers. So don't hold your breath.

 

Also I see the nice, insulting "Are you playing at -1" nonsense in other replies.  Such as...

 

Mayhem missions on low level are insanely easy. I don't know how to even start thinking of them as difficult. Mayhem missions at *high* level are insanely easy. Even on a stalker, yes. Yes, even with ambushes that "know where you are." (Are you aware there are three types of ambush "logic?" There's go-to-location, go-to-player-location-at-spawn, and the player tracking one. Takes me moving all of a few feet to see which it is. It's *hilarious* to watch a "rescue" ambush run past you because you moved a few feet down the hall, in plain sight.) All you have to do is pay attention to what's going on. The people I see having trouble with them tend to just expect to rush through and ignore *all the clues about what's happening.*

 

There are almost no missions "At appropriate diffilculty" (have to throw that bit of insult in, huh) that are "tricky" in any real way. Ambushes are not "tricky." Controlling your aggro is not "tricky," it's a basic game skill. Protip: Put your NPC dialog in another window. Ambushes are almost never stealth ambushes, and will typically announce themselves with a line or more of dialog, which can give up to *several minutes* warning.  For my own amusement on mayhem missions, I'll often do exactly what Longbow says - "Stop right there, villain!" So I'll stop. And wait. And let them take the first shot. Then tell them "Thanks, that video footage of my compliance and you shooting anyway will be appreciated by my lawyer" before beating them down in "self defense." Which I can do without a min/max build at "appropriate difficulty" because the game's just not that hard to require one for that.

 

 

But if your response is this sort of nonsense, you don't want a conversation.

 

I want a conversation. Why are you saying my "are you playing on -1" is insulting? I literally started my post saying we seem to be playing different games.

My experience is not the same as yours. Obviously. Wtf is up with all this vitriol on these forums?