Tanks and Brutes question

[liveevil2000]

From the outside looking in, it seems Brutes are just as tough as Tanks with more offensive capacity. It just seems like Brutes steamroll over everything while tanks struggle to down anything they face. They both have the same sets to choose from (flipping primary and secondary choices).

 

The questions is this ...

Is there a big difference in defensive/resist caps? 

If yes, is it as large of a gap as the damage output between the two?

If no, then why a tank when a brute is just as tough?

 

 

[arcane]

Tankers are better.

[SeraphimKensai]

Tanks and Brutes have the same resistance caps, but tanks have an easier time getting there. Tanks also have a larger HP cap.

 

Tanks do less single target damage than a Brute, but oftentimes do more AoE damage than them due to tank aoes generally being larger in radius or arc.

 

Since tanks can generally get their resistances/defenses higher due to power modifiers, they can also usually make better use of damage procs than Brutes as they might not need the set bonus to get their res/defense to the player's goal.

Edited August 29, 2023 by SeraphimKensai
grammar due to transcription.

[liveevil2000]

Are you saying tanks hit the cap faster because their primary powers give bigger bonuses than a brute's secondary?

[Without_Pause]

2 minutes ago, liveevil2000 said:

Are you saying tanks hit the cap faster because their primary powers give bigger bonuses than a brute's secondary?

Yes. It's similar to why Defender's numbers are better than Corrs or Controllers.

[Without_Pause]

Also, the ATOs for each of the ATs are rather different and aid much more to a Tankers survival rate.

[TheZag]

Brutes have a higher damage cap but it would generally only be reached with team or league buffs.  Tanks have an easier time reaching their defense and resist caps and can use those extra slots to improve their damage.  My tanks generally clear as quickly as my brutes in a solo or team setting but are more durable and have higher hp.  On a league,  my brute has way more damage than my tank.  Clearing monsters for hami,  my brute regularly hits knockout blow for 2800ish.  His personal best hit was 3604.  My tanks cant reach those numbers since their damage cap is 200% lower than on brutes.

 

Their differences in performance arent really that big unless you are trying to squeeze every last bit out of your character.  It depends if your character is meant for specific content or all content but i would pick a tank for most situations and the brute for league content where im not the one tanking.

 

[A Cat]

Other than what other people said, early game solo, brutes have a much better experience. You get your attacks faster since it is your primary, and fury is a way bigger buff to damage proportionally than anything else you can access at low levels. 

[liveevil2000]

I'm pretty sure the toons I've run into with my tank are min/maxed to the hilt. I just hit 50 and need to work on getting incarnates, IOs, etc...

 

They just seemed to have an easier time with general content than I do. Again, my tank is pretty raw so I'm sure I'll catch up.

[Without_Pause]

If you are a newer player using a lower budget, then yeah, you will feel like you aren't on the same playing level as other people who have billions sitting. Just getting to T3 in your Alpha and getting even a budget IO build going will make a world of a difference. Just playing a build to T4 it out will generate a ton of currency. You get a handful of respecs for free. You can play around on beta to see what works for you. 

[Snarky]

There are benefits to both. Tankers AoE has been buffed to ludicrous levels.  Also, Tankers Archetype Enhance PROCs are gold.  Brutes have the crappiest ATO procs in the game.  Brutes have been nerfed over and over since they came out.  Tankers have been buffed over and over.  Are you soaking up what is raining down?  

Edited August 29, 2023 by Snarky

[drbuzzard]

15 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Brutes have the crappiest ATO procs in the game.  

Sentinels raise their hands and ask "Really?"

[Snarky]

1 minute ago, drbuzzard said:

Sentinels raise their hands and ask "Really?"

I said "in the game"  Sentinels are just in training missions, right?

[UltraAlt]

6 hours ago, liveevil2000 said:

From the outside looking in, it seems Brutes are just as tough as Tanks with more offensive capacity. It just seems like Brutes steamroll over everything while tanks struggle to down anything they face. They both have the same sets to choose from (flipping primary and secondary choices).

 

The questions is this ...

Is there a big difference in defensive/resist caps? 

If yes, is it as large of a gap as the damage output between the two?

If no, then why a tank when a brute is just as tough?

 

Several of the CoV archetypes are "inbetweens" of hero archetypes.

Brutes are the inbetween Tanks and Scrappers.

 

Tanks can more easily handle pulling/holding agro than Brutes due to their higher hit points and, generally, better resistance and defense.

This makes Tanks better for protecting teammates if they actually take time to taunt. They also generally require less healing and endurance buffing than brutes.

 

Brutes can keep attacking as long as they have someone to keep them healed and, especially, if they have someone to buff their endurance recovery.

Tanks tend to need less concentrated healing and (other than Dark) are able to manage endurance (keep from running out of end) over a prolonged period of time.

That being said, Brutes aren't expected to have perma-fury by game design. It's a mechanic to mimic the Hulk getting stronger the more angry (in a fight) that he gets.

 

If you want to have more protection than a scrapper and want to do damage heading toward a scrapper, then go with the Brute.

If your goal is to protect a team and are willing to keep taunting so that your teammates can take out opponents with less (or no) risk of falling in battle, then play a tank.

[SwitchFade]

Stalker.

 

The answer is always Stalker.

[liveevil2000]

18 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

If you are a newer player using a lower budget, then yeah, you will feel like you aren't on the same playing level as other people who have billions sitting. Just getting to T3 in your Alpha and getting even a budget IO build going will make a world of a difference. Just playing a build to T4 it out will generate a ton of currency. You get a handful of respecs for free. You can play around on beta to see what works for you. 

Thats pretty much me.

I just slotted my AT sets, and yes that made a difference.

 

I just started looking at incarnates and what to slot there. Alpha Musculature and Resilient both sound good, Just deciding which way to go. Double down on defense or help out with damage output.

[ZemX]

46 minutes ago, liveevil2000 said:

I just started looking at incarnates and what to slot there. Alpha Musculature and Resilient both sound good, Just deciding which way to go. Double down on defense or help out with damage output.

 

Always prefer Musculature on Tankers myself.  But there's no reason to sweat this decision since you can eventually build up both and switch between them in down-time between TFs.  Start with Musculature and if you later notice problems in some content with survival, you can build up something else like Resilient.  Maybe use your early threads to build Musc alpha and just keep accumulating shards, favors, and drops of the well running weeklies to use to craft a second alpha later on.

 

You have a similar decision with Hybrid Melee vs Assault for example.  Hybrid Melee can be kind of another "T9"-like defense panic-button but whenever I've taken it, it tends to sit unused more often than not.  And then I end up building Assault.  Again, build both and eventually you have some customization possible for different kinds of content if you want it.  

[Without_Pause]

Shards are annoying to collect and don't drop from Incarnate content. They also are only used for the Alpha slot. I find by the time I get my Alpha slot to T4 for the rest of the build is almost T4ed as well. There are options for leveling up your Incarnates using currency, don't do that.

 

EDIT: I forgot to add, you can go into Mids and select what Incarnates you want to pick and see what the numbers look like. 

Edited August 30, 2023 by Without_Pause

[liveevil2000]

12 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

Shards are annoying to collect and don't drop from Incarnate content. They also are only used for the Alpha slot. I find by the time I get my Alpha slot to T4 for the rest of the build is almost T4ed as well. There are options for leveling up your Incarnates using currency, don't do that.

 

EDIT: I forgot to add, you can go into Mids and select what Incarnates you want to pick and see what the numbers look like. 

Is there a way to directly import my build to Mids or do I have to do it step by step in the program?

[ZemX]

31 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

Shards are annoying to collect and don't drop from Incarnate content. They also are only used for the Alpha slot. I find by the time I get my Alpha slot to T4 for the rest of the build is almost T4ed as well. There are options for leveling up your Incarnates using currency, don't do that.

 

Right.  That's why I suggested building Musc alpha first with threads.  You may find later on if you choose to build up a second alpha slot tree that you have enough shards by then to do it "for free" or mostly so.   Depends what content you are running.   Tends to work out that way for me.

[Without_Pause]

5 minutes ago, liveevil2000 said:

Is there a way to directly import my build to Mids or do I have to do it step by step in the program?

I don't know what the current options are for Mids. I always do it by hand, but I am getting more and more with planning out the build before I even play it. Since some sets need to be slotted at 27/50, I just put in other ones until I can slot what I really want and keep the ones I respec out of in my base for the next character who can use them.

 

Make sure to pay attention to what drops as you level characters. You can craft and attuned IOs worthy of doing such as you go along or store in your base for future characters. My current goal for a final build is 500 million. Slotting purples and other high end IOs will change that, but it is still a good goal. The good news is you have a tank. Crank up the diff to what you can handle and mobs size is more important than mob level since bigger mobs means more drops(purples), and solo that stuff until the cows come home and go back out. Also, depending on if you don't mind mind-numbing stuff, grab Unai Kemen as a contact and run through his missions without completing them, exit, pick a different mission, repick his mission, and go again. That's so old school farming right there. That dude has tons of maps which a bunch of mobs. Add in using the Market and it won't take long to feel like you are past the point of being broke and paying it forward instead.

[tidge]

[liveevil2000]

13 hours ago, tidge said:

lol!

more of an observational question than a debate, but I get the misunderstanding

[Saiyajinzoningen]

On 8/29/2023 at 8:37 PM, SwitchFade said:

Stalker.

 

The answer is always Stalker.

 

1000x this

controlled crits are so addicting

[catsi563]

On 8/29/2023 at 11:53 AM, liveevil2000 said:

From the outside looking in, it seems Brutes are just as tough as Tanks with more offensive capacity. It just seems like Brutes steamroll over everything while tanks struggle to down anything they face. They both have the same sets to choose from (flipping primary and secondary choices).

 

The questions is this ...

Is there a big difference in defensive/resist caps? 

If yes, is it as large of a gap as the damage output between the two?

If no, then why a tank when a brute is just as tough?

 

 

This is a long held debate that started back when brutes were first introduced 

the key is that brutes were not actually intended to be the tanks of the villain side that was actually the job of Masterminds who would use their expandable pets to take the alpha strike and use their healing and area control abilities to either heal their pets or slow and debuff the enemy
 

Brutes were designed to be bulldozers bigger tougher scrapper who the longer the fight went on would hit harder and harder 

 

tanks at the time had an issue in that they were doing as much damage and while tough didnt have as much crowd control as they do now

 

so brutes were basically more offensive tanks at that time

 

Tanks would eventually get a big QOL change where they were not only tougher but could now deal a bit more damage and EVERY attack they fired off was a mini taunt combined with taunt auras and taunt being an auto hit aoe now tanks had their niche as crowd control agro magnets

 

brutes were still the offesnive bulldozers they were always intended to be with the philosophy of the best defense is SMASH SMASH  and more SMASH

 

So in conclusion tanks are meant to stand up to the hardest of hits and just keep coming tanks are the juggernaut Nothing stops the Juggernaut'

 

Brutes are like the Hulk the angrier Brute gets the stronger brute gets and the longer brute fights the stronger brute gets