Focused Feedback: Arsenal Control

[Frosticus]

2 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

 and -kb in canister will go a long way

Cannister should already have this. It was added in a previous patch. I have not seen any feedback on it working/not working yet. 

[Shin Magmus]

Well we'll see what happens, but at this point we're just waiting on a new version to test.  The sad thing is that this set trended pretty objectively in a purely upward direction with Build 3/4 being mostly buffs... and it's still this bad.

[Death2Tyrants]

2 hours ago, ShinMagmus said:

I'm fairly certain that the powers team wants Smoke Canister to be the unique signature power.  The obvious issue is that the power still isn't good enough to beat Arctic Air (0.0s cast time and stronger effects) or Seeds of Confusion (has a cast time but more reliable instant Confuse paired with a lower CD).  So Arsenal's unique signature power is just a worse version of set-defining powers in 2 superior Control Sets.

 

Well that's what I *think* the powers team is trying to go for, since they refuse to explain any of the decisions or release a statement of intent for the set.  Arse Control has an identity now too: it's the Control Set with the most ground patches.  That's a workable identity.  It's just not a workable gameplay plan without stronger slows or an AoE Immobilize.

Clearly you understand what I am getting at and I agree with your response. I think area of denial was also the goal for the set's signature but the mechanics may not be there to support it in real gameplay. Most sets in the game have a signature/identity, it isn't limited to Control sets.

 

I separate delivery mechanic from effect. IMO Why Symphony falls flat is it really only has one unique power, the pet with the echos. The Sleep -DMG is a nice touch but everything else is boiler plate with new eye candy. IMO despite it being a good set it isn't memorable for that reason. The one unique thing about it is the reason why some people hate the pet.

 

One power isn't going to give this set a unique feel nor will the location based activation. Regardless people will play the set since it is gun based; you'll probably have some subset of players that won't play because it is gun based and in their mind guns aren't heroic. For this reason I recommend considering alt wrist launched and/or grenade toss animations.

 

Smoke is close to being a great power, too much adjustment can make it OP.

 

Sleepnade was decent when PROCable but it is just a dressed uo copy of Elec/ sleep patch with some differences. Forcing Controllers to crutch on PROCs for DPS is a subpar solution if we are going to keep Containment as is with its limited scope of triggers (Hold, Sleep. Immob, and Disorient).

 

At this point Liquid Nitrogen is the biggest stinker in the set but hard to justify something else without being too powerful when you look at other Tier 4 powers in Control sets. I liked the Immobilize compromise just not the trigger conditions of wet. One of the earlier versions played better to my liking too.

 

Perhaps that is the best way to approach the discussion by looking at other Tier 4s. IMO the only issue I see is Arsenal's Tier 3 is in some ways better than other Tier 3s.

Comparing Tier 4s:

• Dark/ has a ST confuse Possess
• Earth/ has a Slow (-Run) and -DEF patch with Quicksand
• Elec/ has a spammable KD with Jolthing Chain. It can be PROCed and is basically better than a KD patch if spammed but at the cost of activation time.
• Fire/ has a resistable -To Hit Debuff and -Perception. Usually skipped.
• Gravity/ has Propel as ST DPS attack with splash KD.
• Ice/ has AA multiple controls and debuffs
• Illusion/ gets AoE hold Flash (the other sets get it as a Tier 8
• Mind/ gets a ST confuse. Not so unique anymore since more sets get access to confuse; that is a good thing.
• Plant/ gets an AoE Sleep (not persistent)
• Symphony/ gets a ST confuse with Serenade.

Not limited to LN patch but thinking outside the box, since the set is predominately grenade based, perhaps allowing the option to set up the control like Trip Mine or Poison Trap but at a distance and have the effect activate when an enemy is in proximity. Since we are talking about controls either disallow multiple instances, disallow stacking from the same player or adjust the numbers to allow overlap of multiple instances. The last option pigeonholes folks into +recharge to compete.

 

🤷‍♂️ Wish we had more time to hammer this one out. Still excited to see a new Control Set. I am hopeful something will get worked out.

 

Edit: Maybe have LN start as an Immob and decay into a Slow patch. As an AoD power I liked the version that had the higher KD chances I think it was an Ice Slick clone that was used. I really don't think this will fix anything.

Edited February 12 by Death2Tyrants

[WindDemon21]

3 hours ago, Frosticus said:

Cannister should already have this. It was added in a previous patch. I have not seen any feedback on it working/not working yet. 

You're right I missed the last update YAY! And the upped -to hit on it great! Still seems like it should have a 60s rech for how much you'll be using this as soft control/debuff versus an actual hard control like the aoe stun which is on a 90s timer. Likewise as mentiond for ice slick/e-quake, and nitrogen being on the 60s time instead of 90.

 

Now to also get the -damage and -fly moved/added to sleep grenade, base acc increased on canister, and the tweak to the pet and the set would be looking good!

 

Edit: so the -kb is only the strength of the confused enemies, not applied TO the targets in the field like it is with aoe immobilizes. This should be corrected so that the -kb applies to the targets within the field.

Edited February 12 by WindDemon21

[WindDemon21]

FYI, there is also an inherent issue with the defense not stacking from cloaking device and steamy mist/arctic fog/shadow fall. Even with how other stealth toggles don't stack for some odd unknown reason in pve, being from both your primary and secondary, ie not pools, this REALLY doesn't sit right, and they should stack. It also seems like, for a primary power, that the end cost is a big high on cloaking device. Being the same power basically as stealth from the pool, this power still feels unjustifiably inferior for a primary power pick. If you want to keep this power in the set versus a better option, I'd suggest at least lowering the end cost and maybe adding an additional benefit to the power.

 

Also, the -kb, is for some odd reason only when they're confused for their own powers. This still helps at least, but it would have been a lot nicer with this power having the niche of an aoe field that causes the -kb from all forms, not just the enemies. Would have given the set some really nice synergy to have that, and would be a unique power that would offer a lot of control-ability. It still wouldn't be any much different than what aoe immobilizes do, so it shouldn't be out of the question. That is after all one of the main benefits of the aoe immobilizes (grav/elec's need fixed for this as well) This would also help the set actually synergize better with arsenal assault on doms, changing the kb in the powers to KD instead when enemies are inside the gas, rather than just lowering the KB on the confused enemies themselves. (which tbh would be nice to have this added to ALL confused enemies in the game, especially aoe ones)

 

I've noticed personally as well, to prefer the aoe sleep be target based not location unless the slow it provides is bumped up significantly allowing more use for that, but currently the slow is too little to really use as such. I'm ASSUMING it's a bug, but the sleep as this location patch is also not sleeping the enemies right away and takes 4 seconds for a proc to hit. Which is a BIG reason for the target based so you can use it to start the mob while you set up your other stuff which is one of the main uses for sleeps.

 

I've noticed throwing out both the canister and sleep grenade, that they weren't sleeping at ALL, even if I just stood there doing nothing. It seems like a bug with how the -kb  effects only the confused enemies kb strength. But with just sleep grenade and smoke canister, they won't sleep at all unless they're also confused. This also obviously needs fixed and CAN'T go live like this. The original target based aoe sleep was much better than this current version and should be fixed back (or built properly so it sleeps the whole mob on cast like static field does.

 

There remains a big issue on nitrogen again, needing to take slow/kb ios and sets. Again especially without the aoe immobilize and low-slow effect on the sleep. As annoying as the slow sets are for some reason all having damage in them with none tailored to actual just SLOW powers only, this would be a good power to use slow sets on to actually incorporate damage on the power as well. It would be a good candidate for the ice mistral set. Again, you know, if these powers actually properly let you slot slow/kb sets into them.

 

Overall with further testing it was honestly better before, but a lot of the issues seem like they HAVE to be bugs now though? The confuse also doesn't seem to be working almost at all now. Before it would at least confuse enemies somewhat consistently, but now i'm hardly seeing any confuses as well with the same slotting. Is THIS a bug? Because I didn't notice that many issues with the enemies confusing before with the first build that went on beta.

 

This set can NOT go live as is though. The 2 main every mob powers are effectively doing almost nothing and they actually both seemed to work on my end before this latest beta patch.

[Shin Magmus]

11 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

FYI, there is also an inherent issue with the defense not stacking from cloaking device and steamy mist/arctic fog/shadow fall. Even with how other stealth toggles don't stack for some odd unknown reason in pve, being from both your primary and secondary, ie not pools, this REALLY doesn't sit right, and they should stack. It also seems like, for a primary power, that the end cost is a big high on cloaking device. Being the same power basically as stealth from the pool, this power still feels unjustifiably inferior for a primary power pick. If you want to keep this power in the set versus a better option, I'd suggest at least lowering the end cost and maybe adding an additional benefit to the power.

That's consistent with the useless redundancy of Superior Invisibility on any Illusion paired with Storm, Cold, or Dark.  Your secondary Stealth toggle provides slightly more Def in combat, infinitely more Res (to types valuable against most enemies), some tertiary effect like a weird mez resist, and it benefits the entire team as well as your pet.  So on those characters, the primary Invis power is useless to ever run, and only taken as a 1 slot mule.  That's an issue that would need to simultaneously be addressed on Illusion... but it hasn't yet so I don't think the dev team sees an issue with the redundancy.  That relegates Cloaking Device to being a dead pick on 3 possible pairings for Controllers.  But hey, whatcha gonna do?

[ExeErdna]

11 hours ago, ShinMagmus said:

See, I wish there was no escape, but if you watch any of the footage of my Arse/Traps the reality is that it's very easy for enemies to escape.  Do you have a video of you pausing all attacking for 10s, then walking up and successfully toe-bombing (and the enemies not leaving the area)?

It must be a gameplay difference since I'm either Fold Space-ing them into a minefield then cleaning up whatever's left with poison trap and flashbang. It's why I said the Tri-Cannon should be hitting in a Cone. A reason why I'm able to get away with things is because the Cloaking Device lowers my threat. The Stealth here is nice, you can restealth it's why I don't like choosing the "no-fade" option because the fade is a visual cue. If you don't like it don't pick it, yet it works so you don't need to go into Stealth section. What I said about it, it wasn't worth slotting because the other powers are already hungry for slots since pretty much everything wants to be maxed or at 5. Others might enjoy having a free stealth. It fits in Illusion, it works here too.

[ExeErdna]

Spoiler

1 hour ago, WindDemon21 said:

FYI, there is also an inherent issue with the defense not stacking from cloaking device and steamy mist/arctic fog/shadow fall. Even with how other stealth toggles don't stack for some odd unknown reason in pve, being from both your primary and secondary, ie not pools, this REALLY doesn't sit right, and they should stack. It also seems like, for a primary power, that the end cost is a big high on cloaking device. Being the same power basically as stealth from the pool, this power still feels unjustifiably inferior for a primary power pick. If you want to keep this power in the set versus a better option, I'd suggest at least lowering the end cost and maybe adding an additional benefit to the power.

 

Also, the -kb, is for some odd reason only when they're confused for their own powers. This still helps at least, but it would have been a lot nicer with this power having the niche of an aoe field that causes the -kb from all forms, not just the enemies. Would have given the set some really nice synergy to have that, and would be a unique power that would offer a lot of control-ability. It still wouldn't be any much different than what aoe immobilizes do, so it shouldn't be out of the question. That is after all one of the main benefits of the aoe immobilizes (grav/elec's need fixed for this as well) This would also help the set actually synergize better with arsenal assault on doms, changing the kb in the powers to KD instead when enemies are inside the gas, rather than just lowering the KB on the confused enemies themselves. (which tbh would be nice to have this added to ALL confused enemies in the game, especially aoe ones)

 

I've noticed personally as well, to prefer the aoe sleep be target based not location unless the slow it provides is bumped up significantly allowing more use for that, but currently the slow is too little to really use as such. I'm ASSUMING it's a bug, but the sleep as this location patch is also not sleeping the enemies right away and takes 4 seconds for a proc to hit. Which is a BIG reason for the target based so you can use it to start the mob while you set up your other stuff which is one of the main uses for sleeps.

 

I've noticed throwing out both the canister and sleep grenade, that they weren't sleeping at ALL, even if I just stood there doing nothing. It seems like a bug with how the -kb  effects only the confused enemies kb strength. But with just sleep grenade and smoke canister, they won't sleep at all unless they're also confused. This also obviously needs fixed and CAN'T go live like this. The original target based aoe sleep was much better than this current version and should be fixed back (or built properly so it sleeps the whole mob on cast like static field does.

 

There remains a big issue on nitrogen again, needing to take slow/kb ios and sets. Again especially without the aoe immobilize and low-slow effect on the sleep. As annoying as the slow sets are for some reason all having damage in them with none tailored to actual just SLOW powers only, this would be a good power to use slow sets on to actually incorporate damage on the power as well. It would be a good candidate for the ice mistral set. Again, you know, if these powers actually properly let you slot slow/kb sets into them.

 

Overall with further testing it was honestly better before, but a lot of the issues seem like they HAVE to be bugs now though? The confuse also doesn't seem to be working almost at all now. Before it would at least confuse enemies somewhat consistently, but now i'm hardly seeing any confuses as well with the same slotting. Is THIS a bug? Because I didn't notice that many issues with the enemies confusing before with the first build that went on beta.

 

This set can NOT go live as is though. The 2 main every mob powers are effectively doing almost nothing and they actually both seemed to work on my end before this latest beta patch.

 

 

The canister's effect doesn't trigger unless somebody is aware it's just normal "smoke" which must suppress the sleep as well, I've noticed this too. The confusion is still as potent, what I noticed at +4/8 the smoke isn't suppressing at all at times and just confusing that's not good. Also, I agree a lot of the slow sets seem to be good with slow patches that do damage like Blaster's glue arrow and anybody that can take Caltrops, if you can see the ticks of damage it works amazing. In other places it seem better to just take basic slows, which is something I'm seeing with nitrogen that it's hitting hard yet I'm not seeing damage at times just enemies falling over.

[Neogumbercules]

Edit: Okay I went onto test and made a completely maxed out ArseFire Dominator to play around with. Doing +0/x8 Council's in PI. I removed my previous comment as I wanted to provide more direct feedback.

 

There are too many location powers in the set. It makes it hard to play. Yes I could do the whole powerexec location whatever thing but I don't like doing that because those power macros don't show cooldown status on the tray, which I need. I know I can put them on another tray and look at them there, but I'd rather see it all in the same place. Call it old age, but this set  has enough things to keep track of already. I would take at least 1 of the location powers, probably the big AoE hold, and make that a targeted AoE.

 

I felt like the set was pretty strong, actually. Between the big AoE hold, flash bang, liquid nitrogen, and sleep grenade, I was able to keep two enemy groups pretty much locked down. It's a very busy playstyle and requires the player to click a lot. I will chock it up to first-time experience, but trying to remember which powers were locations and which were clicks was kind of a lot. Then juggling in my other powers such as sleet, ice storm, combustion, etc...I have to click on the ground so much it becomes difficult.

 

I will point out, to the people worried about the lack of an AoE immob, I know this is not exactly useful for 90% of your playtime with the character, but you do eventually get access to that incarnate which provides a good immob proc on most of your attacks. It's not Fire Cages, but it's something.

 

Also this was my first time playing a maxed out /Fire dominator. That's a pretty good powerset!

 

Overall, the set is not as bad as I thought, I just think the playability needs improving. Again, this was on a completely maxed out, permadom, perma-hasten, fully incarnated purpled out super build. I feel that using this set under regular build situations or leveling with it would be very different and I would really miss the lack of a more spammable control, as these 90 second timers are kind of killer. I would also like to see more variety in the player animations, as not every power needs to be shot from the rifle. We can throw grenades, etc...

 

My two suggestions boil down to this:

• Put Liquid Nitrogen on a 60 second timer and maybe increase the kd chance/pulse rate.
  • This will make LN a solid early leveling power that will carry players through the whole game.
• Change Tear Gas to a Targeted AoE that creates the patch.
  • There are too many location powers in the set as-is.

Edited February 13 by Neogumbercules

[Arcadio]

I tried making a AC/TA controler and worked on some +4/x8 missions. This is a very strong thematic pairing. I had no problem of enemies running out of patches. Smoke canister is a huge area and a very strong control, especially with -def debuffs. And liquid nitrogen on its own is enough to keep most enemies in the area while it's up, and a secondary with a slow like glue arrow is pretty helpful and effective too. Absolutely tore through the infernal mission.

 

I think the set is mechanically strong with good synergy, eg damage in nitrogen activating the confuse and cloaking device allowing you to properly place your patches. To me the set has a good identity of tactically controling areas and passage ways with patches, which is fitting. I originally wasn't sold on the concept of the set, but I really like the way it plays. Although I never really took/used the AoE immobilizes in the first place.

[stryve]

Decided to try out a Posi 1 with my existing test build, so fully slotted.  0x4 because I wasn't sure how much I could handle at that level and didn't want to be at it all day.  Quickly found that Sleep Grenade isn't very effective slotted for Slow when Exemplared down like that, as the Sleep pulse duration tends to be too short to keep most mobs asleep natively.  Also, Attuned Slow sets don't enhance Slow enough at that level;  the difference between -50% and -60% Run Speed is pretty negligible.  Swapped Ice Mistral out for Call of the Sandman midway (both chosen for Global Recharge), and got a lot more utility.  In retrospect SOs or plain IOs might have done better, since 15 is below the cutoff for most set bonuses.  Did have trouble with runners in large groups, especially the ambushes at City Hall; fortunately they all came back.  Oddly, the Shadow Simulacrum seemed to use a lot more Traps than Arsenal powers.  Overall conclusion:  Clockwork have annoying interactions with Knock, Ruin Mages suck, and 3 Eidolons at once is too many. 

 

Did notice some interesting interactions between Sleep Grenade and Smoke Canister, so I went back to PI and ran a few more Radios at +3x4, +4x4, and +4x8.  Ended up with Council once and CoT twice.  End Result:  the initial damage from Sleep Grenade will consistently trigger Confusion on enemies in the Smoke cloud (Minions and Lieutenants; Bosses tend to have more Mez Protection).  Many mobs start fighting each other before falling asleep, which results in them staying in the Gas long enough for the ~4 second delay on the first Sleep pulse.  Some just fall asleep, but some get woken up by their own damage and attack each other in a chain reaction.  Also doesn't matter so much if Tri-Cannon starts waking mobs up, since they tend to attack whatever is closest (each other).  This can be effective, but I find I still prefer Liquid Nitrogen and Flash Bang for the extra damage.

 

Also tested out Sleep Grenade by itself for thoroughness: just about anything that stays in the Gas long enough will eventually fall asleep.  This obviously works better with ranged mobs, since they stand there shooting instead of charging out of the Gas.

 

On another note, as best I can tell Liquid Nitrogen was pretty much a straight clone of Ice Slick in Build 1:  30 second duration with 151 ticks with each tick having 8% chance for KD and 75% chance for around .5 damage.  Even checked City of Data to make sure, and that's what Ice Slick is doing on Live.  Since Wet was rolled back, the only change to Liquid Nitrogen in Build 4 is greatly increasing the base damage per tick, but setting it to only trigger if the KD does.  8% chance to KD does seem low, until you consider the check happens 5 times per second.  Generally should see around 12 flops over the duration for individual mobs (barring KB Protection; darn Shield Generator Shadow Simulacrum).

 

Further thoughts on the set in general:

• Could use more Slow to help thing stay in patches.
• Flying mobs can zip off for parts unknown more or less at will without specific attention.
  • Oddly, if they're near the ground they still take damage from Liquid Nitrogen; Stunned enemies tend to not go straight up, so Flash Bang helps there.
• Of the five AoE powers, only Sleep Grenade can reduce cool down enough to match duration without extensive Global Recharge bonuses.
  • Tear Gas probably can't at all, but that's no different than other AoE holds on Control sets.  In some ways it's better off, since it's a 45 second duration patch.
• Can be a very safe set when things go well, but that can turn very quickly with bad rolls or choosing the wrong time to use a power.  When it does, there's a fair chance all AoE controls will be on cooldown.  Secondary powers will have to fill the gaps there.
  • I find Liquid Nitrogen to be safer than Arctic Air just because it can be used from beyond most mobs aggro range (at least it can with Cloaking Device).  Seeds of Confusion isn't as clear a choice: more powerful Confuse in exchange for a 50 foot cone, as opposed to a 80 foot range ground patch.
• Damage potential is on the low end for Controllers, short of abusing procs.  Which would likely lower the effectiveness of the various soft controls, and therefore general survivability.  Not my usual build style, so I can only speculate here.
  • Another argument for high Global Recharge.  Solo large groups will probably take more than a minute to whittle down, requiring multiple casts of 30 second duration powers.  In teams you'll probably need to stagger activations just to have SOMETHING available every group, much like Traps.

[Booper]

1 hour ago, Neogumbercules said:

Yes I could do the whole powerexec location whatever thing but I don't like doing that because those power macros don't show cooldown status on the tray, which I need.

Thank you for the feedback. In regards to the quoted section, when you play are you using your mouse to select powers, or your keyboard? Personally, I use my keyboard (numpad, specifically), and I set up binds that executes a location AoE on my target. The power still goes on cooldown like normal and shows the countdown.

 

Just a suggestion if it works for you, but I understand if that change is too drastic. It would be nice if macros could be hooked into the power, and the cooldown shows for them. Maybe someday Six can cook up that kind of magic.

[nzer]

2 hours ago, Neogumbercules said:

There are too many location powers in the set. It makes it hard to play. Yes I could do the whole powerexec location whatever thing but I don't like doing that because those power macros don't show cooldown status on the tray, which I need.

 

I'm ready to lobby for a way to show cooldowns on macros, but in lieu of that, you can accomplish this currently by changing your binds to activate slots in two different trays, and putting the powexec_location macro in the second tray.

 

For example, with this as a bind file you could place the actual ability in tray 1, which you would have visible, and the powexec_location macro in tray 5, which would not be visible, and pressing the hotkey would activate the macro while showing the actual ability on the hotbar.

1 "powexec_tray 1 1 $$ powexec_tray 1 5"
2 "powexec_tray 2 1 $$ powexec_tray 2 5"
3 "powexec_tray 3 1 $$ powexec_tray 3 5"
4 "powexec_tray 4 1 $$ powexec_tray 4 5"
5 "powexec_tray 5 1 $$ powexec_tray 5 5"
6 "powexec_tray 6 1 $$ powexec_tray 6 5"
7 "powexec_tray 7 1 $$ powexec_tray 7 5"
8 "powexec_tray 8 1 $$ powexec_tray 8 5"
9 "powexec_tray 9 1 $$ powexec_tray 9 5"
0 "powexec_tray 10 1 $$ powexec_tray 10 5"

 

Hopefully this is not too off-topic.

[Frosticus]

• Arsenal Control > All Pseudopets should now be spawned with the caster's current buffs. As usual, they will last for about the same time as the buff lasts in the caster.

The devil is in the details. Most caster buffs are typically much shorter lived than players might think.

global acc still has no impact. 

Tactics will last about 2 seconds

Targeting drone I dunno 1-2 seconds?

kismet worked well though

 

It helps for powerup and buildup though as appropriate, so it is definitely better. Same if you fulcurm shift, sleep nade can actually do a bit of damage now. 

 

I'd be lying if I wasn't disappointed that the set has almost no slotting diversity because it is neutered for procs by virtue of the power designs. I think that will hurt its longevity and replayability. 

 

Overall I think this set has some weaknesses and some niche strengths (like shooting around corners). It will not appeal to everyone and some pairings will do much better than others. For instance arse/ta looks like it has a lot of synergy and I'm liking my arse/thorn dom quite a bit.

[Shin Magmus]

Release Candidate 1:

 

Thanks for adding -Fly to 1 single target power.

Anti-Thanks for not adding -Fly to any AoE power: this is just another way that Arse Control will be glaringly inferior to good Control sets.  Seriously, have fun playing this on Katie Hannon TF.

 

...and that's it.  There were no other meaningful buffs to the set.  Welp, this is what we're getting: it's better than nothing but worse than all other available choices.  Now that we have the next round of patch notes, I will conclude with the statement I made while I was testing Arse Control in Build 4...

 

All of my lv50 characters "work" (as in function).  If my team literally wipes on something like the Ambush Waves on Posi1 TF or the Toxic Sewer of Apex TF, I can pop some insps (and maybe also Demonic Aura), and win the fight anyways... solo.  My Melees can do this, my Supports can do this, and all of my Controllers can do this.  As a general rule of thumb, I can insp up and be powerful enough (for a brief window) to win any fight solo.  This is true even on hard support Defenders with full Leadership, who lack the Fighting pool at all, and whose kits are focused on buffing allies.  It's just how this game works and how functional most sets are.  Arse control dis-functional.  My Arse Controller will be my one and only character who doesn't work.  I'll need both a solid Brute or Tanker ahead of me to taunt enemies to hopefully reduce scatter, and also a real Controller or Dom to apply better slows -or- an AoE Immob (some sort of AoE -Fly) to enable my terrible character to perform at an adequate level: sad.  Thanks to everyone else who tried.

[Sovera]

11 hours ago, Neogumbercules said:

There are too many location powers in the set. It makes it hard to play. Yes I could do the whole powerexec location whatever thing but I don't like doing that because those power macros don't show cooldown status on the tray, which I need. I know I can put them on another tray and look at them there, but I'd rather see it all in the same place. Call it old age, but this set  has enough things to keep track of already. I would take at least 1 of the location powers, probably the big AoE hold, and make that a targeted AoE.

 

Instead of macros use binds. It'll be annoying to rebind your whole tray, but you get to see the cooldowns. Something like /bind lshift+1 "powexeclocation target Tear Gas"

[Shin Magmus]

I'm going to embed 2 videos side-by-side and not use the Forum Link option, for ease of viewing and make this point.  You guys be the judges.  2 different builds, one on Beta with Arse Control and the other on Live with Fire Control: both vs Yin TF at +0/x8.

 

 

 

[Bionic_Flea]

So this terrible, horrible Arsenal Control at 2:10, is about at the same place, against the same foes, without the pet as your super-awesome fire/FF with imps out.  Did I miss something?

[Shin Magmus]

2 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

So this terrible, horrible Arsenal Control at 2:10, is about at the same place, against the same foes, without the pet as your super-awesome fire/FF with imps out.  Did I miss something?

Yes you did.

[Bionic_Flea]

Care to elaborate?

 

Oh!  Is it that critters are running away from caltrops because you have no immob, but are still killing everything just as fast as your fire with an awesome immob?

 

Edited February 13 by Bionic_Flea

[Frosticus]

Not sure what feedback you are looking for?

Traps has always scattered spawns to the corners of the earth and arsenal has limited ability to prevent it. But if I were on an arse/traps I'd:

-spawn seekers in the middle of the spawn (not an exact science) to help collapse it

-follow with confuse canister to further encourage collapse*

-jump in and in your prefered order: caltrops, acid mortar, nitrogen, poison trap.

 

*having those spawns move like 25% closer together makes aoe controls/powers much more effective.

I'd hold my aoe stun for when needed as I think the aoe confuse is the more useful tool in most situations personally. 

 

*bonus points if you continue the TF and show your arsenal troller fold the AV Clamor with near zero risk/effort while the fire troller would probably need a few handfuls of insp. 

[Arcadio]

I think I like Arse/Pain better than TA, and it doesn't even have any suplementary slow. Again no problem without immobilizes, just takes some self-herding to draw enemies into the nitrogen. Blew through 54/x8 council radios very safely.

 

20 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

*bonus points if you continue the TF and show your arsenal troller fold the AV Clamor with near zero risk/effort while the fire troller would probably need a few handfuls of insp. 

I remember you taking down Clamor with animate stone tanking, but this pet is something else. Any ammount of healing on the pet makes it almost unstoppable it's insane. Arse/Pain took out a 54 AV Infernal (with daggers and lore) after a couple tries. I'd imagine /Thermal would be much stronger with heat exaustion for taking out AVs.

[WindDemon21]

15 hours ago, Booper said:

Thank you for the feedback. In regards to the quoted section, when you play are you using your mouse to select powers, or your keyboard? Personally, I use my keyboard (numpad, specifically), and I set up binds that executes a location AoE on my target. The power still goes on cooldown like normal and shows the countdown.

 

Just a suggestion if it works for you, but I understand if that change is too drastic. It would be nice if macros could be hooked into the power, and the cooldown shows for them. Maybe someday Six can cook up that kind of magic.

I mean, i like location powers, but unless the slow is increased enough to be used for the, and the big one, is the initial hit ACTUALLY works when it's cast ie you don't eat the alpha because they're slept then it's fine. But as is, the power was much better as just a click power that placed the sleep patch. For one it actually worked to sleep the mobs without getting return fire, on another, it's not a hefty enough power as is to warrant the location placement versus just a click power that leaves the patch below.

 

I'd much rather it work as it did in build 1 as the click power that left the location patch after and actually worked to sleep the mobs. Edit: if it stays location that's fine enough but it HAS to actually sleep on the initial hit and keep them slept (Still feels like the slow should be upped and -fly added though)

 

Regarding the canister as well, bump to 15% helped and the -kb, even though only to the enemies definitely helped a lot (this should be done for all confuses IMO), was hoping it would be on the enemies themselves in the field like how the -kb applies to them with aoe immobilizes. I think that would have helped to set define the set too as well as helped pairings like the thematic one on doms with arsenal assault letting you use the field to keep KD'd for buckshot/trip mine. Would have been really nice especially with the set not having the aoe immobilize to do that.

 

I'd still see the canister and nitrogen patches (and ice slick/earthquake) as 60s powers being soft control instead of a full stop-attacking hard control like aoe stuns are, which are on 90s timers as well. You still CAN get them perma yeah so it wouldn't OP them or anything but would help QoL on those out a lot especially in the earlier levels.

 

Regarding the confuse as well. If you don't have a set that inflicts damage especially consistently there is an issue with the confuse actually working I've noticed, Seems like the powe would work much better as just a proccing patch like static field mechanics, only confuse. Because if you're not attacking, like if you get held or something, its not doing ANY confuse, and that's a problem. The duration feels like it's too short for what it's doing a lot of the time too, would be fine at 90s if the duration was bumped to 45s.

 

The drone also still keeps staying at range and pulling the mobs apart, which is also very bad. Even if nothing else changes, if the ai could at least be changed to go into melee that would help a lot, though giving it shocking aura or something as a small aoe would help when it does that too.

 

But yeah, largest thing here is making, well regardless of the other parts of the power, making the sleep in sleep grenade actually sleep on the first hit. Right now it kinda does for about .03 seconds and then they're woken up, it didn't do this when it was a target based power. Likewise bumping up the slow to slot-worthy levels would help a lot, right now the slow is just too low. Should be standard slow-levels like caltrops, quicksand, tar patch etc, and have some -fly added cause that REALLY hurts having enemies just fly right out of these in .05 seconds flat.

 

Don't forget as well to fix nitrogen/ice slick/ice patch to accept slow/kb IOs and sets as well. This would also of course help the power out a lot to get more slow and such on the field or use to be a slow + kb power to create a barrier wall. (this should have been corrected a couple patches ago when powers were looked at for their sets they take)

 

Also the Tricannon, still feels a bit too weak as is, but even it's taunt, it says it is 4 targets max, but with testing, it's only taunting 2 enemies at a time max.

Edited February 13 by WindDemon21

[Captain Powerhouse]

Hello everyone, thank you all for the feedback provided so far. 

 

We understand this set wont make everyone happy, either performance wise or conceptually. No set will ever be able to fulfill that. This is not the first, nor will be the last, new control set we add, so there will be future opportunities to fulfill different themes.

 

As was noted at some point by other devs, we intentionally don't post about the "vision" of sets because we want to see the set get on players hands and them go wild without pre-established expectations. 

 

Throughout the testing cycle we have seen some of you make this set work very well, and others have a harder time with it. Some of it has been addressed, some of it can't be addressed at this time due to current limitations that we hope will improve in future updates. Other things are simply not compatible with some of your play styles.

 

For the most part, we try to make every new set play somewhat differently, and require different approaches to maximize their potential. This is true with most sets, but it's especially so with control sets where the combat loop is a lot more reactive than it is with standard damage focused sets.

 

Honestly, if every set we introduce can be easily approached using the same tactics as any other set, then we feel that is a big failure. 

 

We do have some internal concerns with the set ourselves, I cant talk much about what we see in the future for it, but things like Controller Containment are things that have not escaped us. That is more of an AT design issue than a set one, and not something we will be able to tackle this page.

 

We are on a release candidate now, but we are not done. We still need to find some bugs, and some additional quality of life features may still make it into the live build. Just please, cope with us, this is a gigantic jenga tower of a game, and modifying any one brick can make the whole tower collapse, so we just cant do everything at once.

 

Do please continue reporting any issues you have with the set, but we ask you remain polite in doing so. 

- Captain Powerhouse

[Frosticus]

2 hours ago, Arcadio said:

I think I like Arse/Pain

I'm not one to judge :)