Focused Feedback: Arsenal Control

[Shin Magmus]

It's a shame that useful feedback about other remaining issues with Arse Control has almost entirely stopped, and now we'll just have pages of discussion about "Wet".  It's like the Powers Team threw down a smoke bomb as a distraction.

 

My feedback on version 3 of Arse Control is that it feels actively antagonistic to the playerbase how this set looks now, and how its new combo mechanic is locked out on people playing Arse/Arse Doms and Arse/Traps (and also Arse/TA) Controllers.  The whole point of getting a Natural Origin Control set was for thematic pairings like this.  Instead of working to make Arse Control be a genuinely good and fun set that works in these obvious, intuitive, statistically more popular pairings, the Powers Team added overcomplicated gimmicks to make weird pairings like Arse/Storm the "good ones".  This set is a failure: it is not worth playing. 

[Maxzero]

4 hours ago, Cheli said:

So the reason folks were given for why the devs can't just copy-paste an AOE immo from another set with a different animation over to Arsenal Control is that the set is just too far along development to make that change, but not far enough along that they can program in a conditional immobilize effect that then requires them to go through and flag who knows how many dozens of powers as triggering a 'wet' condition? Or was this already in the code not being used or something? None of this makes very much sense.

 

I understand not wanting to play to the meta, or add a set that's just copy-paste of the other control sets with a few minor tweaks. I LIKE sets that are a bit weird and different, and I like the idea of power combos (preferably ones you can trigger yourself) but the "immo -> containment" loop for controllers isn't going to go away because you just stubbornly refuse to add any more aoe immo powers. If you're dead-set on killing the reliance on aoe immos, either add something significant to sets without one to compensate for the lack of consistency on containment or change containment. 

 

Especially when you realise the Containment mechanic itself is a stop gap solution for Controllers doing crappy damage.

 

If they don't want Immo to be so important how about increase base Controller damage scaling and change Containment into something to do with CC/support (or anything really) instead of damage?

 

We now have an adhoc solution to an adhoc solution instead of fixing the root problem.

 

Tanker's and Defenders got their passive reworked maybe its time for Controllers to have their turn.

Edited February 2 by Maxzero

[Random Robot]

Would it be possible to have an option to remove the unusual particle FX on cloaking device? (And by extension, on Field Operative for /Devices?) A "No FX" option for both powers would be great.

[BitCook]

Having a niche is really important in determining what set you want to play.  If it doesn't play different than other sets, or worse, plays different and is bad... well... why put it in the game?  I REALLY like the idea of tying sleeps with some other debuff.  That makes them worth a cast or a consideration in any content.

[Lockely]

On 1/29/2024 at 12:29 PM, Player-1 said:

Hello all,

 

I want to reiterate that we do comb through and greatly appreciate the feedback in these threads (and the suggestions forum too!). However, there are certain things we cannot action on either altogether, or in a timely fashion that lines up with the beta cycle at hand.

 

At this time, the powers in Arsenal Control are locked in and we cannot commit to any major swaps such as one type of crowd control to another. That said, if there are suggestions on how the current power framework can be improved we would be happy to look into those! 

 

I wanted to cycle back to this post simply because it kinda bothers me a bit. You guys aren't a corporate dev team having to please investors and rush builds out the door to meet the quota for the next quarter. You're a volunteer team of caretakers and insanely dedicated fans who are keeping the game alive and adding onto it.

There's no need to rush out a build to the live servers. If something needs to rework and bake a bit more based on player feedback, then so be it. So what if the timetable is off. We ain't paying for this in any discernible way but our time. Hold the set back for the next page if you have to to make the needed changes.

[arcane]

It strikes me as trolling to continue advocating for the power selection to change after multiple developers have told us the power selection is fixed. I’m sure they would appreciate if feedback was limited to the current power selection in light of this.

[Frosticus]

I'm a fan of increased debuffs, especially on sleep powers, but I'd take ice slick/nitrogen over an aoe immob every day of the week.

I don't think removing the only sources of damage (sleep nade and nitrogen) is particularly well thought out. Easy containment for your epic aoe is nice, but 35+ levels of zero damage isn't a good trade off imo.

 

 

 

[Shin Magmus]

19 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

I'm a fan of increased debuffs, especially on sleep powers, but I'd take ice slick/nitrogen over an aoe immob every day of the week.

I don't think removing the only sources of damage (sleep nade and nitrogen) is particularly well thought out. Easy containment for your epic aoe is nice, but 35+ levels of zero damage isn't a good trade off imo.

 

 

 

For Doms, a Control set not dealing damage is a complete non-issue.  However, for Controllers... I'm not sure how much you play them but I play them a lot.  It's pretty common for a Controller to take a pool attack as their 3rd single target attack in the chain if they aren't using an Epic attack like Fire Blast: and please note that the vast majority of Control sets only have 2 single target "attacks" as a standard.  So a Controller who wants an attack chain will just take Arcane Bolt at lv4, or maybe lv6, and then you have your 3 attacks; in Arsenal Control this would look like Cryo -> Tranq -> Arcane.  As for dealing damage beyond that, you'd be able to slot 4 damage procs into Flash Bang (or 5 if you also use the ATO proc and cut back on Mez slotting), and can also deal moderate AoE dmg during some fights with Tear Gas Canister but not every fight.  Those both come way before lv35, with the pet at lv26 as the last main source of damage.  This is all very standard for Controllers by the way.  The ability for them to deal more damage hardly ever comes from their primaries, and instead comes from their secondary and epics.  So if I make an Arsenal / Traps Controller I'll probably take Toxic Dart instead for theme, try to fit in Corrosive Vial as well for the procs it can slot, and add in good ole Caltrops as my AoE damage.  I can have all of that before lv35 as well.

[Cyclone Jack]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

It strikes me as trolling to continue advocating for the power selection to change after multiple developers have told us the power selection is fixed. I’m sure they would appreciate if feedback was limited to the current power selection in light of this.

Feedback has been given, and much of it has been ignored.  The fact is, you can't really balance an AoE Sleep as a L2 power.  There is a reason almost every other set has an AoE Immobilize there.  It gives players almost immediate access to some form of AoE control that is still balanced even though its perma right out of the box.  You *cannot* balance an AoE Sleep with an 8s recharge, because either the Sleep would be so short as to be useless, which is what we saw in Beta 2, or the Sleep starts out perma, just like the Immobilize, which would make leveling beyond trivial (ie: overpowered).

 

The sets that don't have a Tier 3 Immobilize have a 3rd single-target attack or mez, such as Levitate or Deceive, but they seem unwilling to go this route as well, because they don't want to make any meaningful changes to the set.  For example, Beanbag would be fitting here.

 

[Frosticus]

Maybe we are playing a different version of the game, but the low damage primaries for both controllers and doms tend to be less popular than the ones that contribute considerable damage.

 

looks at sig, there is a chance I have no experience with trollers and doms, but it isn't an argument I'd lead with myself. 

Anyway, it's not up to me what powers get implemented, I'm just testing what the devs put in front of us and highlighting the proficiency/deficiencies of those powers. 

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

Hello friends and neighbors!

 

I have moved some posts over to a new thread created just for you:  "What I wish Arsenal Control looked like."

 

There you can discuss to your hearts content how you would have made it.

 

Please keep the feedback threads to actual feedback on what is on the Beta test server.  For example, I like X because . . . or I hate X because . . . or even better, I did this test on X and found . . . 

 

Thanks! 

[Player-1]

Hello again everyone, 

 

With the latest build, we request to see if anyone can record tests of knock-back heavy enemies inside of Smoke Cannister attacking one another. Council or 5th Column rocket launcher enemies, Trolls, and so on would be great candidates to see how the patches hold up in such situations!

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Lockely said:

 

There's no need to rush out a build to the live servers. If something needs to rework and bake a bit more based on player feedback, then so be it. So what if the timetable is off. We ain't paying for this in any discernible way but our time. Hold the set back for the next page if you have to to make the needed changes.

 

Without going into the weeds as it were, we have a lot of features planned out for 2024 and beyond and in order to devote resources to each we need to stick to a schedule. Like with Storm Blast this page, there can always be tweaks made in a following patch after time has passed to review more data.

[Frosticus]

24 minutes ago, Player-1 said:

Hello again everyone, 

 

With the latest build, we request to see if anyone can record tests of knock-back heavy enemies inside of Smoke Cannister attacking one another. Council or 5th Column rocket launcher enemies, Trolls, and so on would be great candidates to see how the patches hold up in such situations!

Can I show a video of Phantasm knocking a spawn out of range of Illusions (troller) only aoe control - Spectral Terror? /s

 

If anyone hasn't had the chance to try it. Sleep nade pretty easily double stacks with a mid-tier build. I was consistently seeing mag 9 sleep (3 stacks of mag 3) under domination. Interestingly, I don't think it ever jumped up to mag 12. Obviously each application wakes them all up, but it ramps up again pretty quickly.

[Shin Magmus]

Phantasm is pain without KBtoKD, it's rough.

[UrbanHound]

Played around a bit on a 40 Arse/Poison Controller. For context, I am far from the most optimal or efficient player. I mostly duo with the wife, so I'm not a big endgame TF player either. I rarely play meta builds, love underdogs, and my favorite control set (for better or worse) is Electric. In other words, casual AF. With that safely out of the way I feel most will go on to the next reply or bravely linger, but this is my take. It's ... fun? While things do tend to scatter and sometimes the Tri-Cannon does TOO good of a job and holds court with a portion of the mob while I'm huddled with another cluster... Being able to reliably (w/ basic IO slotting, core controls felt peppy and something in my toolbox was consistently available) layer multiple soft control effects with persistent patches made me felt safe to dive into reasonable groups with my stank noxious Arse and feel reasonably confident I'd come out OK. I'll have to play more with the 'Wet' interaction to see how it's functioning, I chose the Leviathan epic pool with Bile Spray and it didn't feel consistent. But I'm likely doing something wrong.

 

And I really have to sing a praise for Tri-Cannon. Sure, it's pure, basic DAKKA, but it can take a ridiculous amount of punishment and the damage wasn't too bad. It's ability to taunt and peel aggro in addition to the set's innate controls really contributed to the perception of safety when leaping into combat. I honestly felt like I was just debuffing and laying down controls to soften targets for the Cannon to take out. Since I dove in at a higher level I think I would want to test more at lower brackets to see how the pace of combat and missions flows there as the Cannon felt so essential to my flow and damage. I would be loathe curious to find out how I'd fare without it.

 

I love Electric Control, so it is probably no shocker that I dig this set. But perhaps it's my years of built up masochism for an extremely low damage control set that makes me open minded to what feels like an alternative interpretation? And a pet that absolutely curbstomps Gremlins? I'll take it.

 

I would lastly like to echo the request, if possible, of a grenade alternate throwing animation. This could really broaden the natural hero/villain appeal.

[Maxzero]

The thing is Arsenal Control as it is now is actually in an okay position. The problem isn't the set itself but the Immobilize Containment meta that its trying to fit into.

 

The same way you didn't fix Defender and Tanker damage issues by giving them new OP attack sets you are not going to fix the reliance on Immobilize by adding new sets (unless those new sets are crazy OP which just causes new problems).

 

No other AT is so critically reliant on their passive for damage as Controllers are and it has and will continue to hamper design until its solved. Control sets are cookie cutter because Containment makes them so.

 

This was never fixed on live but you guys now have the power to finally solve it.

Edited February 4 by Maxzero

[victusfate]

Got a chance to kit out an arsenal control/arsenal assault character on beta. 

 

So far I found the Tri-Gun could use some proc love, its base damage vs +3s felt minimal. The aoe smoke + confuse is great, really enjoyed it although I think I'd prefer the confuse kick in. I'm just not used to it yet

 

[WindDemon21]

1 hour ago, victusfate said:

Got a chance to kit out an arsenal control/arsenal assault character on beta. 

 

So far I found the Tri-Gun could use some proc love, its base damage vs +3s felt minimal. The aoe smoke + confuse is great, really enjoyed it although I think I'd prefer the confuse kick in. I'm just not used to it yet

 

It won't proc. It's only attack is on a 2 second timer. The pet is AWFUL as is. Sturdy sure, but does almost nothing with that basic attack even fast. Unslotted for damage one hit only took out 1/3 of a minus SEVEN minnion without lethal resistance. The pet design/sturdiness (taunt radius and target cap is so tiny i'ts not THAT good) is fine, but it NEEDS more attacks. At least that smaller full auto cone and another ST attacks on a longer timer.

[Shin Magmus]

I think the pet is pigeon-holed now, because if it's tanky and can Taunt, then it de-facto must also not be too strong offensively.  This is a classic case of sliding scale balance giving up offense for defense, or else it's just the best pet in both offense and defense.

 

But that's not feedback, that's just why I think they won't buff its damage much.  On that note: I highly doubt the set gets any significant changes now (not just the pet) because nobody is listening to feedback in this thread unless it's 100% positive.  We're getting Arse Control with both anti-synergy with Traps, and now with this new "Wet" mechanic that makes you want to pair it with Freezing Rain etc. just to have an Immobilize.  There's nothing else to be said, it's hopeless.

[WindDemon21]

10 minutes ago, ShinMagmus said:

I think the pet is pigeon-holed now, because if it's tanky and can Taunt, then it de-facto must also not be too strong offensively.  This is a classic case of sliding scale balance giving up offense for defense, or else it's just the best pet in both offense and defense.

 

But that's not feedback, that's just why I think they won't buff its damage much.  On that note: I highly doubt the set gets any significant changes now (not just the pet) because nobody is listening to feedback in this thread unless it's 100% positive.  We're getting Arse Control with both anti-synergy with Traps, and now with this new "Wet" mechanic that makes you want to pair it with Freezing Rain etc. just to have an Immobilize.  There's nothing else to be said, it's hopeless.

That is a given, why we're saying SOMETHING added, cause the tanky taunt it does isn't anywhere near enough to have such crap damage, which is also dumb tenfold given the set doesn't really get containment/aoe immobilize to proc. Tbh, this is the LEAST efficient pet for this control set, where it needs more damage than the other pets to round out how the rest of the set works. It's also dumb cause the pet doesn't even go into melee where the taunt is useful, so it just either does nothing, or prevents enemies from going back to where the actual fight is. It's a shit show without question, and the pet needs fixed.

 

I'd much rather without question have it's taunt removed in favor of having actual attacks and it doing actual damage. Or at least make it go in melee with a damage aura and a melee attack added. The pet is absolutely terrible as is with this set.

Edited February 3 by WindDemon21

[EnjoyTheJourney]

Arsenal control and traps can work together well if fold space is part of the build. Strong AOE control patches, a pet that seems to stay where it is and taunts mobs into swarming it, and the location-based nature of traps can all work together well then. That's a bit of a narrow niche, admittedly, and the pet is a mixed blessing for other kinds of arsenal / traps builds. 

For doms, it's unfortunate that arsenal assault has anti-synergies with arsenal control. Testing them out made that clear. Not completely sure how that happened or why it wasn't corrected.  

 

In a sense, both of the sets across two ATs that would thematically fit best with arsenal control are functionally awkward. And, the "wet" mechanic doesn't help those anti-synergies at all. 

 

The hypothesis that comes to mind is that arsenal control and arsenal assault were designed for a kind of internal consistency for how the powers functioned within each powerset, with possible synergies across powersets given low priority. It's a pretty complex undertaking to design a powerset, with a *lot* of detail involved, so it's understandable that those involved would want to narrow down the number of variables to consider. Wasn't part of those conversations, though, so that's just speculation on my part. 

Arsenal control has the virtue of being a very good set for newer players using SOs and playing on lower difficulty levels both while teamed and (especially) when solo. The patch-based AOE controls are easy to understand and it would be intuitive to stack them together. The pet is an absolute gem for soloing on +0x1 notoriety levels because its taunt and toughness will reliably bring entire spawns over to the dom and it won't be easily defeated while doing that. So, it does have that going for it.

Edited February 3 by EnjoyTheJourney

[stryve]

A third build, and a third toon taken from 1-10.  Again, just the Prestige Enhancements and SOs, no 2XP, etc.  

 

The first few levels are pretty much the same as build 2:  increasing the damage of Tranquillizer and moving Cryo Freeze Ray to T2 definitely feels like the right choice for very low levels.  Tranquilizer is still showing the wrong damage numbers in Power Details, but I already reported that in Beta Bug Reports last build.  Then I hit level 4 and could pick up that most controversial of powers, Sleep Grenade.  It took me a while to parse what's going on with this power now, and the Power Details column wasn't a huge help.  Here's the Details for the power a level 4 Controller, unenhanced:

What I've managed to put together is that there are actually three separate areas of effect. 

• First, the power must be targeted at a single enemy, and that target gets hit by a large amount of Smashing Damage (presumably to represent being clocked by the grenade).  This really is a high damage attack, doing nearly four times the base damage of Tranquilizer and Cryo Freeze Ray, and does proc off of Containment. 
• Next is a low radius (best guess is under 8 feet) AoE for a small amount of Smashing Damage, which does seem to also hit the initial target.  This also procs off of Containment
• Third and last is the outer radius (maybe 15-20 feet?  Seems to be less than Liquid Nitrogen, anyway) which creates Slow and pulsing Sleep patch.  The total duration of the patch seems to be ~30 seconds, with the Slow lasting a little longer.  The patch also has a chance of Confuse on subsequent hits, which I have seen be activated by the small radius damage AoE in a single cast of the power.

I suspect the Sleep pulse is on a 4-second cycle, so one each of Recharge and Sleep SOs at +3 get it right to the edge of recasting before the patch times out, in theory.

Unfortunately in practice, there is a hiccup.  As mentioned by others, the patch seems to time out when the body of the initial target despawns.  This happens even if the target has run out of the patch, though the patch itself remains stationary.  I'm not certain this is intended, but I've started leaving the initial target alive to maximize patch uptime. 

The other problem is that it can take mobs in the cloud up to 4 seconds from the impact of the grenade to fall asleep (I timed it; this combined with the listed Base Sleep duration is why I think it's on 4-second pulse cycle).  This is not a case of Sleep being canceled by Damage, as enemies outside the damage radius show the same behavior.  Even with the Slow, 4 seconds is plenty of time for a significant chuck of a group to run out of the patch.  Enhancing Accuracy and Sleep did seem to help with that a bit, and both the time to Sleep and the tendency to run varies by enemy type.  Some types seem to be affected more quickly, and some are inclined to fire off a ranged attack before charging into melee, which leaves them in the patch longer.

 

Next up is Liquid Nitrogen.  I'm somewhat conflicted on this implementation.  Thematically, it makes sense that enemies take Smashing Damage while falling over, and only while falling over.  Mechanically, it's unreliable with only 8% chance to KD.  On a very fast tick, sure, but still.  The listed damage is quite misleading, since you're extremely unlikely to see anywhere near a full 151 ticks of damage.  Really, Liquid Nitrogen is in an odd place (much like the obvious inspiration, Ice Slick).  The main reason to take and use the power is for soft control through Slow and KD, which cannot be enhanced.  The damage was always a nice bonus, but not worth investing into.  Now the potential damage is a lot higher, and it might be worth it to boost it further just so things get hit harder in the brief moments damage procs, but anything with KB resistance is going to be affected a lot less overall.  As is it's disproportionately effective against Minions, so I guess it works well to clear out chaff while you concentrate on the harder targets.

There's also a certain amount of anti-synergy with other powers in the set.  Generally Slows work better when stacked, but everything else about both Sleep Grenade and Liquid Nitrogen disincentives using them together.  Traps lets me get around that a little with Caltrops if I have a tight grouping I want extra Slowed, and if a Boss happens to be Held/Slept the single target damage from Sleep Grenade with Containment can be worth it.  The fact both Tranquilizer and Cryo Freeze Ray disable the KD, and therefore any extra damage on targets you're focusing on, is also a little annoying.  I haven't gotten that far yet, but I have concerns on how things are going to interact with Smoke Cannister and Tear Gas.

 

The last Arsenal Control power so far, taken at level 8, is Cloaking Device.  I've seen complaints about this power being included in the set, and it does feel a little odd in a set very obviously skewed towards Natural Origins.  On the other hand I've found it to give great utility for basically no investment as a solo Controller.  Not having to worry about accidentally running around a corner into a big mob lurking just out of sight is nice, and even a small amount of Defense All is always welcome.  Leave it a single slot with Endurance Reduction and it's fine until/unless you want another spot to stick Defense Sets.

 

My level 10 pick was Toxic Dart from Experimentation to round out my single target rotation.  Damage is about equal to Tranquilizer and Cryo Freeze Ray, and it is affected by Containment, but mostly chosen to stick closer to Natural theme.

[Frosticus]

Tri-Cannon does about 50dps (w/ 95% damage enhancement). Is that more/less/similar to other t9 pets?

It does ok-ish with chance for buildup proc and pretty badly with perfect zinger psi proc.

 

Pros: it moves well, taunts very well (fast cycling attack) and is extremely robust compared to all other t9 pets including stoney and singy 

Cons: not too exciting, sits so far back it will never get team buffs, can actually pull melee centric opponents out of your patches as they try to close in on it.

 

I'm all for making it more exciting. I think it would perform better if it moved in to about 25 ft range of its target.

 

Can't speak to the troller version and it is a known bug that it is dominating outside of domination (only minions in this group so maybe doesn't matter?), but here's sleep nade at lvl 8 with a single -3 sleep SO vs a full spawn in perez.

Objectively it is pretty darn good

 

 

[stryve]

I jumped up to level 15 for continued testing, and am no longer concerned about the interaction between Liquid Nitrogen and Smoke Canister.  Seems to be working just as well as in build 2.  Also, and I feel like I should have already known this, Trolls tend to be resistant to many forms of mez.  This includes Sleep, but thankfully not Confuse.

[Shin Magmus]

21 minutes ago, stryve said:

I jumped up to level 15 for continued testing, and am no longer concerned about the interaction between Liquid Nitrogen and Smoke Canister.  Seems to be working just as well as in build 2.  Also, and I feel like I should have already known this, Trolls tend to be resistant to many forms of mez.  This includes Sleep, but thankfully not Confuse.

A Confuse hole is pretty common in old armorsets, of which many old enemy groups take powers such as Integration and Unyielding.  These powers have Confuse holes on players as well, but both Leadership and VEAT versions of Tactics provide actual Confuse protection for the entire team: which means even now several people simply assume that they have it.  It's a funny phenomenon, but it means that Confuse is better than average at CCing lots of enemy groups.

 

Except Confuse doesn't proc Containment... and the Hard Mode difficulty modifiers add Mag 10 Confuse protection to all the enemies...