Focused Feedback: High-Level Council Revamp

[FupDup]

So I just finished some radio team testing runs of the various revamps NPC groups. At first we were a team of 4: 2 Corrs, 1 Brute (me!), and 1 Scrapper. After a few runs the Scrapper left, and a few more after that the second Corr left leaving us with just a duo. 

 

Even with just a half team, the new Council were pretty easy other than the new bosses being a bit tanky. The Corruptors had a few close calls but my Brute's health bar barely moved. Solo, however, the bullet sponginess can get pretty boring quickly. Besides the bosses, having so many LT's that self-rez is annoying because those can be unintentionally killed by stuff like nukes, whereas bosses are more "deliberate" to kill due to their HP (and no that doesn't mean boost LT health). Freakshow are different because their self-rez is not consistent (excluding Super Stunners) and they're just way easier to take down in general. 

 

If the goal was to stop teams from steamrolling, it appears that it won't do a whole lot towards that goal. It just slows down solo play a lot. 

 

IMO the boss tankiness should be toned down a bit and we figure out some kind of team size difficulty scaling thing like Diablo games have, so that mob tweaks aimed at slowing down "steamroller" teams don't turn solo into a total slog. 

Edited January 26 by FupDup

[Sovera]

9 minutes ago, FupDup said:

So I just finished some radio team testing runs of the various revamps NPC groups. At first we were a team of 4: 2 Corrs, 1 Brute (me!), and 1 Scrapper. After a few runs the Scrapper left, and a few more after that the second Corr left leaving us with just a duo. 

 

Even with just a half team, the new Council were pretty easy other than the new bosses being bullet sponges. Solo, however, the bullet sponginess can get pretty boring quickly. So if the goal was to stop teams from steamrolling, it appears that it won't succeed at that goal. It just slows down solo play a lot. 

 

IMO the boss tankiness should be toned down a bit and we figure out some kind of team size difficulty scaling thing like Diablo games have, so that mob tweaks aimed at slowing down "steamroller" teams don't turn solo into a total slog. 

 

It really would be nice to get the suggested 'when solo all mobs have 100% HP and each extra person in the team adds (random numbers subject to tuning) 15% HP. A full team makes every mob have 200% HP'. Man, in one elegant swoop we'd fix the steam rolling and people would be able to land more than one hit before a spawn has melted.

[KaizenSoze]

Another of PI radio testing done. Controls are very help for keeping things moving, bosses rarely transformed and the rez hurts but is manageable in a team.

 

Had a few sub 50s a long for testing and death in general very rare. The AOE spam didn't hurt the sub 50s that much. We did have a lot of controls. 3 doms at one point.

 

We drop some of the doms, still fine. Only near team wipe was the accident aggro of 2-3 CoT spawns at once.

 

 

[dnomad333]

As stated above the high-end radio runs we experienced felt good, even mistakes made were for the most part recoverable. The challenge for the difficulty felt on par as well.

[Tigraine]

Just going to say that I absolutely loathe playing missions against Freakshow, specifically because of the self-rez.  There is nothing worse than burning down all your endurance and getting your health reduced to just a sliver, using the last of your inspirations, all to barely take down a boss, only to have it pop right back up again and smash you.  It turns that hard-fought feeling of victory into the disappointment of defeat and the frustration of a hospital run.  As a result, I avoid Freakshow missions and arcs like the plague and only run them when I have no alternative.

 

Council were always the enemy to go against when I just needed some relaxing or cathartic mob-smashing.  With this change, adding not only a self-rez, but a self-rez with an AoE?  It's enough for me to put Council in my Freakshow category, and if the overall impact on my gameplay experience is bad enough, might push me from the game altogether.  Considering how much the Council are a part of mission arcs I enjoy, it just might.

Edited January 26 by Tigraine

[America's Angel]

14 hours ago, Coyotedancer said:

The consensus may be that the outsized impact that has on Masterminds doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things... They're not the most popular or most common AT out there, so the impact on the general player population may be seen as an acceptable trade off for having the Council as the City's new Danger Dudes.... But that does need to be an intentional trade-off made with full awareness. 

 

Same with the CoT revamp, sadly.

 

Have decided to retire my Mastermind. If they're not being taken into account when balancing enemy groups, then there's no point playing them. I'll stick with the ATs the dev team are balancing around.

[Doc_Scorpion]

I was on Kaizen's team yesterday, one of the sub-50's (a lvl 35 EA/EB defender), so from that POV....

The fights seemed "tough but fair", and I actually felt like I was contributing with my buffs/heals (and the fights lasted long enough that I had time to) and I got to blast a little too.  But there weren't any incarnates, so I don't know how that's gonna go.

They make a mention of fewer deaths, and that goes back to previous testing with my lvl 50 earth/rad controller tagging along. My 'fender fared well because she was built around working entirely at range.  My 'troller has to get in close to use Radiant Aura to try and keep Stoney and the team healed, and both of us (controller and pet) were routinely getting mashed by all the AoE.  Ultimately, I simply stopped bringing him out.

In summary, overall the increased difficulty is good.  But the overabundance of AoE is bad for controllers and masterminds.  Unacceptable.

[Lunar Ronin]

Henchmen really need some innate AoE defense like pets on other online games have.  Until then, yeah, henchmen should very much be taken into consideration when giving mobs AoE attacks and nukes.  It reminds me of the Going Rogue game design, where the Paragon Studios developers openly admitted that they didn't take Masterminds into consideration when designing content, despite using the Demon Summoning power set to help sell it.

[Doc_Scorpion]

1 hour ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

The fights seemed "tough but fair", and I actually felt like I was contributing with my buffs/heals (and the fights lasted long enough that I had time to) and I got to blast a little too.  But there weren't any incarnates, so I don't know how that's gonna go.

Forgot to add:

IMO, we really need more sub 50's (especially teens and twenty somethings) to simulate the usual composition of a PI radio team if another test run is organized.

[Coyotedancer]

4 hours ago, America's Angel said:

 

Same with the CoT revamp, sadly.

 

Have decided to retire my Mastermind. If they're not being taken into account when balancing enemy groups, then there's no point playing them. I'll stick with the ATs the dev team are balancing around.

 

Yeah, the multiple, explosive magi can definitely be problematic, too... At least those guys aren't auto-hit, though, and they can be interrupted. Their animation time also seems to be a fair bit more forgiving. We get a few more seconds to react.

 

I've had more success with my monstrosities surviving the new Circle than I have with the new Council missions, but neither is what I'd call kind to pet-dependent characters. 

 

Between the design choices here making life difficult for my Masterminds, the Bonfire nerf (Which *also* hits my Mastermind. Yay. <_< ), and the re-Hide proc change potentially forcing all of my Stalkers into soft-capped Defense builds rather I want to go that way or not, I'm starting to be a little 😞 about this update.

 

 

 

Edited January 26 by Coyotedancer

[ivanhedgehog]

On 1/25/2024 at 5:26 PM, KaizenSoze said:

A lot of people have complaining about feeling useless in high teams. A lot. I rarely join PI radios, because they are so boring. What fun is being able to fire only 2-3 powers per spawn.

 

There is another round of unofficial PI radio beta testing tonight at 7:30 EST. Every test we have run 4-5 50s can *still* rip through pretty any group in terms of speed. The only difference is that player say they actual have to play attention now. Use more of their powers. Depending on your AT/build they are noticeable harder solo. Folks might have to turn down difficultly.

I have been comparing my Fortunata against Council live vs beta. Live Council is a joke at 4x8. Even solo. On beta I actually have to think a little.

If they are feeling useless fighting council....maybe fight arachnos???????It isnt hard to give yourself difficulty in this game. This is just imposing it on everyone because of "git gud" It is an arbitrary change to make a small group happy. if the changes "arent noticable" revert them and no one will notice.

 

will the rewards for council improve? challenge vs reward?

[PeregrineFalcon]

I was just on Brainstorm testing this. I was solo with a level 50 Tank doing radio missions on my island.

 

My tank is Invuln so Council have never been any real threat. With the changes I was actually taking some damage, not enough to really matter though, and I kept having to kill the Galaxies twice.

 

That doesn't really bother me though. I'm used to it from fighting Freakshow a lot.

 

Basically it didn't make them more of a threat, just more interesting.

[Coyotedancer]

The new beta build is a definite improvement as far as New Council vs Masterminds is concerned... I ran Amtes and the monstrosities through a few groups and lost only one of the little guys this time. 

 

This actually felt fair for her.  

 

 

 

Edited January 28 by Coyotedancer

[Tigraine]

6 hours ago, Coyotedancer said:

The new beta build is a definite improvement as far as New Council vs Masterminds is concerned... I ran Amtes and the monstrosities through a few groups and lost only one of the little guys this time. 

 

This actually felt fair for her.  

 

 

 

 

I don't actually see anything in the Build 2 Changes notes that affects Council at all?  Am I missing something?

[Sovera]

12 minutes ago, Tigraine said:

 

I don't actually see anything in the Build 2 Changes notes that affects Council at all?  Am I missing something?

 

The explosions only do 50% damage to non players.

[Tigraine]

3 minutes ago, Sovera said:

 

The explosions only do 50% damage to non players.

 

OK, but where is that in the Build 2 Changes notes?
 

 

I'm specifically looking at the expanded section under this:

 

Quote

 

Only looking for what changed in Build 2? Check here! All changes are also in the full patch notes found below.

BUILD 2 CHANGES:

 

 

There's not even a section for Council changes under there, unless I'm completely blind and am just missing it?

[Sovera]

7 minutes ago, Tigraine said:

 

OK, but where is that in the Build 2 Changes notes?
 

 

I'm specifically looking at the expanded section under this:

 

 

There's not even a section for Council changes under there, unless I'm completely blind and am just missing it?

 

[Tigraine]

Huh.  Weird that it didn't make it into the Build 2 specific change notes.  Thanks for posting the info.

 

Anyway, good to see that at least some of the concerns regarding MMs are being addressed.

 

I'm still concerned about the impact of the self-rez in general, particularly solo play.  A lot of the feedback I've seen so far has been for teams.  Unfortunately it will be a while before I can test this out for myself, possibly not until after this page is out of beta (dealing with an injury making prolonged mouse use difficult).  So I'd appreciate info on anyone else's experiences running solo against Council with these changes.  Are they as/more annoying than Freakshow?

[KaizenSoze]

10 minutes ago, Tigraine said:

Huh.  Weird that it didn't make it into the Build 2 specific change notes.  Thanks for posting the info.

 

Anyway, good to see that at least some of the concerns regarding MMs are being addressed.

 

I'm still concerned about the impact of the self-rez in general, particularly solo play.  A lot of the feedback I've seen so far has been for teams.  Unfortunately it will be a while before I can test this out for myself, possibly not until after this page is out of beta (dealing with an injury making prolonged mouse use difficult).  So I'd appreciate info on anyone else's experiences running solo against Council with these changes.  Are they as/more annoying than Freakshow?

I have solo'ed them a lot with my VEATs and some other ATs. I don't find the rezing more annoying than Freakshow at 4x8. Council are harder than Freakshow now for sure at 40+.

 

New Galaxies only appear at 40+. The galaxy LTs are just an annoyance at 50+. The Galaxy bosses can hit hard, but their rez can be avoided by breaking line of sight as they die. There was a small delay between death and rez. I haven't tested build 2 yet. I suspect it got easier to avoid the rez.

 

I also solo'ed them with an SO only Trick Arrow/Storm defender at 0x8 and 1x4. It was slow, mostly due to endurance issues, but doable.

[Coyotedancer]

That most of us (Me included, here- 😅) have only been testing these guys and the new Circle either with teams anchored by 50's, or with our 50/50+ characters solo, is a good point... We need to try them out with more non-50 and non-finished characters. We know our stronger characters can handle them, but these things are going to show up "in the wild" well before everyone gets to that point.

 

I'm a "serial alt-ist". I finish one character completely before I move on to the next one, so I don't have a collection of unfinished non-50s in my crew to throw at the new goons, but I've moved the one that I *do* have (a level 45 Psi/Shield Brute with a partially put together IO set build) to the beta server. My plan for this afternoon is to run him against both these Council guys and the new Circle, just to see how he holds up. He doesn't run at +4/x8 solo at this point in his life in the live game, so he's definitely not in "Highpower McBadass"-territory yet. He'll be a fair test of what they're like for a soloing non-50 Joe Average, I think.

[Doc_Scorpion]

25 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

I'm a "serial alt-ist". I finish one character completely before I move on to the next one, so I don't have a collection of unfinished non-50s in my crew to throw at the new goons, but I've moved the one that I *do* have (a level 45 Psi/Shield Brute with a partially put together IO set build) to the beta server.

Using the freebies popmenu on Brainstorm, you can build and equip a character of any arbitrary level.

[Coyotedancer]

4 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

Using the freebies popmenu on Brainstorm, you can build and equip a character of any arbitrary level.

 

True that, but I'm one of those weirdos who prefers running with a "real" character. It's not entirely rational, but it's a preference.

[Doc_Scorpion]

20 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

 

True that, but I'm one of those weirdos who prefers running with a "real" character. It's not entirely rational, but it's a preference.

No shame in that!  I just wanted to put that out there because I still occasionally run into people who don't know about the freebies popmenu.  One of my missions in life is try and get more people to test below the "incarnated 50" level.

[KaizenSoze]

I ran a few characters through after build 2 dropped.

 

Either the rezes were mostly avoidable or the pet damage was not severe. My Ninja/Trick Arrow MM had to work a lot less harder to achieve good results.

[SwitchFade]

Test it Solo, SO only build and then teams SO only builds. This would likely yield much different results.

 

And no, I will no longer do any testing. Why? I don't need to help fine tune a change I whole heartedly disagree with. That's like telling me I'm going to have my car taken from me through no fault of my own, and could I pretty please help clean it up and pay to tune it before it's stolen?

 

If there should be HARDER council post 40, then MAKE THEM as an additional faction, don't remove something that people want. I didn't ask to have the option of vanilla removed.