Focused Feedback: High-Level Circle of Thorns Revamp

[Doc_Scorpion]

3 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

People were talking about testing below level 50, so I logged on with the only non-50 character I had on Brainstorm. I saw something that made me think that there was something a little different than what I was used to at that level, but I think you're right. I think I was just misremembering.

Coyotedancer was talking about soloing in the 40-50 range, I was talking about having teams with a higher proportion of sub 50's.

[PeregrineFalcon]

Ok, I boosted my Fire/Energy Sentinel up to level 40. Once again he had just even level SOs, except for a single Performance Shifter proc for the extra endurance. Now he also has Assault, Tractics, and Tough.

 

Radio missions at +1 x4. Lots of Spectral Oranbegans, a name which I don't remember and isn't on the wiki (I wonder if that's what I saw at level 30, but I don't know), and I even ran into something called an Ancient Thorn Specter. In any case, they still aren't anymore difficult than before. The Specters still just try to flat-line my accuracy, while everyone else either shoots ridiculous hand crossbows at me, or tries to light me on fire.

 

Unlike the Council, the Circle at this level just didn't seem to be any more difficult at all.

[tricon]

5 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Ok, I boosted my Fire/Energy Sentinel up to level 40. Once again he had just even level SOs, except for a single Performance Shifter proc for the extra endurance. Now he also has Assault, Tractics, and Tough.

 

Radio missions at +1 x4. Lots of Spectral Oranbegans, a name which I don't remember and isn't on the wiki (I wonder if that's what I saw at level 30, but I don't know), and I even ran into something called an Ancient Thorn Specter. In any case, they still aren't anymore difficult than before. The Specters still just try to flat-line my accuracy, while everyone else either shoots ridiculous hand crossbows at me, or tries to light me on fire.

 

Unlike the Council, the Circle at this level just didn't seem to be any more difficult at all.

 

The lower changes don"t seem the problem, the worse that happen to me that I got to hit floored by a big group of demons but IMO the problem is with this:

 

Quote

Bosses

• Created high-level versions of Madness, Ruin, and Agony Mages at 45+ with additional powers

 

So we can end up with earthquake and double tar patch plus on top of cc. I have seen confuse or my Huntsman has been turned into a stone. 

 

Annoying but you can work around it, The new placate from Bane looks a lot better now, maybe you should switch from the Assault hybrid to the Melee Core/Radial power or hard cc or focus fire certain mobs before you engage the group.

 

So what is my issue with them atm. Usually I go solo through the entire Dark Astoria arcs and 2 to extra incarnate arcs. Now if I compare the group at maximun lvl then the are now better or should I say way more dangerous as a group what to expect in the other Dark Astoria zone. I am not sure this is a good idea end make them unbalnced. Personally, i have fewer problems, I like challenges. But whether that's good for the groups that play in PI, that's the question. 

 

As an example from yesterday. I created a new Super Reflexes Sentinal and run a few rounds with it. I still remember two of these rounds very well.

 

One round was vs a  remaining Ruin and Madness mage plus a lt. and minion.  The Ruin mage has taken his 5% chane and hit me with Dreadful Wail and one shoted me with max health.

 

Quote

Master of Agony Stuns you with their Dreadful Wail.
Master of Agony hits you with their Dreadful Wail for 218.63 points of Smashing damage.
Master of Agony hits you with their Dreadful Wail for 792.18 points of Energy damage.
Master of Agony hits you with their Dreadful Wail for 528.12 points of Energy damage.
Master of Agony hits you with their Dreadful Wail for 528.12 points of Energy damage.

 

As a player I would expect to get hit with the 2 first parts and not with 4. Is this is it really intended that an npc has a better version of Dreadful Wail or is this a bug?

 

The second fight I survied a fight vs another boss only because my Sorcery resist shield was runinng, just so that the absorb proc from the preventive medicine kicked it with my remaining hps and saved me.

 

Of course certain classes have it much easier. My ss/regen brute had a close fight where I went through my entire power cd list but a single +4/x8  group is no big deal for the class........

Edited January 29 by tricon

[Coyotedancer]

Running with my lvl 45, mostly-SOed Brute at his usual live-version "cruising speed" difficulty of +1x4, I didn't have too much of a problem with these goons.... UNTIL I hit a group at the end of a mission that included both a 'typical spawn' Death Mage and a named boss who ALSO happened to be a Death Mage. As I expected might happen, that group plus a layered dose of double Tar Patch just flattened him.  I haven't run into a double Earthquake situation with him yet.

 

Overall, just from what I've seen so far, these guys actually can be pretty hard on an unfinished under-50. They weren't impossible by any means... at least not on a Brute... but there was a fair difference between them and the current Live version, even at +1. And I *still* say that Double Tar Patches SHOULD NOT BE A THING. Double Earthquakes likewise.  If mid-level Spectral Lords and Earth Thorns don't get to double up their Quicksand and Darkest auras, then these yahoos shouldn't get to double up their F--- You effects, either. 

 

And yeah, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see similar changes made to the Incarnate Circle goons in DA in Page 8. As it stands on test now, they're much less nasty than their comrades in PI and Grandville.

[WindDemon21]

On 1/27/2024 at 5:54 PM, Wavicle said:

There is absolutely zero reason there should be easy mobs in this level range. "Because it has always been this way," is an awful justification.

I've already provided you the reason. Because it's an aspect that players enjoy without ruining the game, where there is much harder content literally anywhere else at that level range. It's not "because it's always been this way," it's "because we want something in that level range to not have to be on our game 100% of the time and we don't want to constantly have to play below-40 alts. It's not even end game specific. I'm literally talking JUST the cot/council that are in the radios.

[Britannic]

Vote to rename them to the Circle of Jerks; or Circle Jerk for short. 😜

[Coyotedancer]

29 minutes ago, Britannic said:

Vote to rename them to the Circle of Jerks; or Circle Jerk for short. 😜

 

 

My player-character Oranbegans are not down with this.  🤣

[PeregrineFalcon]

I tested again tonight with a level 46 MA/SR Scrapper. Don't ask why. I said I wouldn't do any more testing for Homecoming because the devs just ignore what we say anyway.

 

Anyway, My MA/SR Scrapper on Brainstorm has all even level SOs except for 2 Performance Shifter Procs and a Miracle +15% recovery in Health. I love SR but I already did the pre-Issue 9 ride to 50 being beat constantly with the blue bar.

 

+0x0 No apparent change.

+1x2 I ran through the caves and killed Domi so fast that I won't be surprised if he reports me for "Gatekeeping." Whatever, I'm used to it at this point.

+1x4 Second group I encountered was lead by a "Master of Ruin" it was fine but he was only a boss and he had more Hit Points then most EBs. Fighting him wasn't a challenge, it was just boring. When I finally ran into the big boss, Faculus, wasn't nearly as tough as the Master of Ruin.

 

Bottom line: good luck soloing them on a blaster, so no change there, but a properly build scrapper with some inspirations won't have a problem.

[Lazarillo]

Did a few more tries on these guys since apparently not having it scaled to x8 on my last run didn't give me a good feel for the bosses.  This time I was on a hoverblasting Fotunata, to see if, with the Tar Patches and Earthquakes, Group Fly was gonna be the new team meta for handling these guys.  It did have an effect, but not the one I was expecting!  As it is, it seems the Masters of Ruin and Death simply won't cast their ground-based debuffs if their target is in the air.  But, and this is a little interesting to me, if I landed in order to bait them to cast it (or at one point when something hit me with a -Fly), the debuff would hit me while I was in the air above it!  I'm not sure if this is WAI or not...for lower level Ruin Mages, notably, staying airborne stays out of their quakes, a method that really helps make stuff like Positron's TF or Drowning in Blood tolerable on some of my squishy alts.  It's possible that these are special Earthquakes and such and specifically designed, while at high levels, not to be dodged so easily?  If so, that still feels a little cheap...finding ways around these things is part of the fun for me, so just being told "nope it hits you" is a little disappointing.  But then again, the point is to keep them challenging, so I could see why some might prefer it this way.

 

That said, I strongly feel that even if it's WAI for high-level enemies, characters need the out at lower levels.  Anyone want to climb into a DiB or similar and sometime soon and make sure that lower level Ruin Mages didn't also get a buff that, frankly, they really don't need (seriously, are any low level bosses as beastly even with the fly trick?).

[Bionic_Flea]

I've been leveling a Storm/Regen Sentinel on Beta and got him to about 43 and running Mako's second arc solo at +0/x8 (yeah, yeah, I know that's not the design scale).

 

I'm not sure if it's Sentinel or the CoT, but I was frequently getting confused and then held.  Getting confused is par for the course for redside COT with all the succubi, but I don't recall ever being held on a character with a mez protection toggle.

 

I need to try it some more to see what was stacking the holds on me.  But even if this was a team, it's dangerous if your meat shield runs in and gets held in the alpha.

 

Also: Storm/Regen Sentinel is awesome.  The storm improvements and older sentinel changes make him feel very strong.  Now I need to make one on live.

[Wavicle]

3 hours ago, Bionic_Flea said:

I've been leveling a Storm/Regen Sentinel on Beta and got him to about 43 and running Mako's second arc solo at +0/x8 (yeah, yeah, I know that's not the design scale).

 

I'm not sure if it's Sentinel or the CoT, but I was frequently getting confused and then held.  Getting confused is par for the course for redside COT with all the succubi, but I don't recall ever being held on a character with a mez protection toggle.

 

I need to try it some more to see what was stacking the holds on me.  But even if this was a team, it's dangerous if your meat shield runs in and gets held in the alpha.

 

Also: Storm/Regen Sentinel is awesome.  The storm improvements and older sentinel changes make him feel very strong.  Now I need to make one on live.

yes storm is very fun on Sentinel.

 

Sentinel mez protection is just not that high. You might need to protect yourself with moment of glory in certain situations, and regen just is a little vulnerable to stacking.

[Coyotedancer]

Hmm.... I notice that no change was made to the Masters of Death or Ruin being able to spawn two per group, or to their ability to double up on Tar Patch or Earthquake when they do.

 

Confirmation that you guys consider that particular bit of over-the-topness is "working as intended"? Because if it is, I'm going to get grumpy... While it may not happen all that often, it's a step too far into "F- You"-territory, especially for for melee characters, when it does. 

 

[ViridianDev]

1 hour ago, Coyotedancer said:

Hmm.... I notice that no change was made to the Masters of Death or Ruin being able to spawn two per group, or to their ability to double up on Tar Patch or Earthquake when they do.

 

Stepping in to clarify here; Masters of Ruin have had a spawnlimit of 1 set since the beginning, so that's why there hasn't been a changelog called out for them. If you're encountering more than one at a time, that would have to be a result of multi-aggroing spawns.

 

Masters of Death do not have a spawnlimit, and aren't expected to get one, as the mage class that should exist most commonly at high level.

[Coyotedancer]

2 hours ago, ViridianDev said:

 

Stepping in to clarify here; Masters of Ruin have had a spawnlimit of 1 set since the beginning, so that's why there hasn't been a changelog called out for them. If you're encountering more than one at a time, that would have to be a result of multi-aggroing spawns.

 

Masters of Death do not have a spawnlimit, and aren't expected to get one, as the mage class that should exist most commonly at high level.

 

I haven't run into two Ruins myself, but someone else in the thread mentioned it... Doubled MoDeaths have been a thing, though. I've seen that several times now.

 

If they won't be set to limit their numbers in a spawn, their Tar Patches need to be set to be one-at-a-time the way that Earth Thorns' Quicksand and Spectral Demon Lords' auras are.  Layered Tar Patches from magi in the same spawn are, to put it kindly, AWFUL. These revamped mobs are tough enough without that extra added bit of over-compensation.

 

 

 

Edited February 1 by Coyotedancer

[kenlon]

On 2/1/2024 at 1:45 PM, Coyotedancer said:

Layered Tar Patches from magi in the same spawn are, to put it kindly, AWFUL. These revamped mobs are tough enough without that extra added bit of over-compensation.

 

I would like to echo this - multi-spawn is fine, multiple instances of Tar Patch not so much.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

To add one more set of experiences to the list, I ran a PI radio mission with an endgame-build arsenal / arsenal / mu dominator at +4x8, bosses enabled. If the primary hadn't been used it would probably have been nigh undoable. But, the AOE controls from arsenal control made the mission quite safe. There were only a couple of fights that were semi-challenging and that's because on those occasions I was a bit lazy re-applying controls after initially laying them out. 

The liquid nitrogen / smoke canister combination worked particularly well for slowing down incoming damage. The single target hold would be used for the occasional boss that wasn't controlled well enough by that combination. 

 

Problems with overaggro did come up. But, they were solved by layering on more AOE controls, which arsenal control has in quantity. 

Edit: After a bit more reflection about why it was a smooth and easy mission to take on the new CoT, cloaking device allowed this dominator to deliver an AOE control alpha in every fight. No going around a corner, getting surprised, and then eating alpha and all the associated debuffs from the entire spawn before being able to react. That undoubtedly helped a lot. 

Edited February 3 by EnjoyTheJourney

[drbuzzard]

I took a elec/enaergy stalker for a drive and tried out a few things. The build was level 50+3/ thoroughly decked out as one might expect. I went to PI and started up the old radio.

 

First selection of missions was arachnos-carnies-carnies. This was a bit annoying since I wanted to try the new Council and CoT. However I said no big deal, I'm trying electric melee with Thuderstrike update, so why not? 

 

I fought my way through the carnies at +2x8 and it wasn't over the top. Fought my way through without any real 'oh shit!' moments.

 

Eventually the radio gave me a CoT. Mission. In a cruel twist of fate it was blue cave (gag). I went in and engaged my way through fighting everything. OK, now that is night and day. Normally people do CoT happily on steamroll PI radio missions where a bunch of your team is lowbies fresh out of AP. That will simply not work anymore. There were quite a few touch and go moments, and ultimately I ran into a group with a magma mage and I ate cave floor. After a short hospital stay where they re-inserted my spleen, I went back the (ugh) cave and went back after that spawn, but this time used barrier. I did clear the mission, but it was hairy. There will not be people carrying lowbies around anymore. 

[Wavicle]

That will only be true until people learn the new mobs and their abilities. Once people know what to expect it will quickly become easy again.

[Sovera]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

That will only be true until people learn the new mobs and their abilities. Once people know what to expect it will quickly become easy again.

 

Me on my Fire Armor characters on live seeing a Succubus: 'You first'.

 

 

1 hour ago, drbuzzard said:

I took a elec/enaergy stalker for a drive and tried out a few things. The build was level 50+3/ thoroughly decked out as one might expect. I went to PI and started up the old radio.

 

First selection of missions was arachnos-carnies-carnies. This was a bit annoying since I wanted to try the new Council and CoT. However I said no big deal, I'm trying electric melee with Thuderstrike update, so why not? 

 

I fought my way through the carnies at +2x8 and it wasn't over the top. Fought my way through without any real 'oh shit!' moments.

 

Eventually the radio gave me a CoT. Mission. In a cruel twist of fate it was blue cave (gag). I went in and engaged my way through fighting everything. OK, now that is night and day. Normally people do CoT happily on steamroll PI radio missions where a bunch of your team is lowbies fresh out of AP. That will simply not work anymore. There were quite a few touch and go moments, and ultimately I ran into a group with a magma mage and I ate cave floor. After a short hospital stay where they re-inserted my spleen, I went back the (ugh) cave and went back after that spawn, but this time used barrier. I did clear the mission, but it was hairy. There will not be people carrying lowbies around anymore. 

 

You're comparing one person soloing +2x8 to 8 people doing +4x8. The damage will immensely higher even with purple patch and things will die much faster. I doubt lowbies will have no place. But this is just me doing an educated guess.

Edited February 4 by Sovera

[drbuzzard]

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

 

\You're comparing one person soloing +2x8 to 8 people doing +4x8. The damage will immensely higher even with purple patch and things will die much faster. I doubt lowbies will have no place. But this is just me doing an educated guess.

 

Current PI radio teams already avoid or dread carnies, malta or arachnos. The death count is generally quite high on the lowbies with unslotted powers, no defenses, and few powers in total with those factions. Council and CoT are now appreciably harder than those factions. Unless the one running the team is a good buff/debuff guy, they will be soloing missions with a bunch of lowbie corpses strewn around which randomly pop up from level rezzes and then die again. That may be a touch hyperbolic, but I cannot see teams being the free for all of inviting anyone, even fresh out of the character generator, to join a PI team. You will have to have a good core before you can carry a team of lowbies. Heck you must have seen how sketchy a 54 KM ITF can be if you don't have enough 50+1s. Council and CoT are now probably tougher than cimerorans. 

 

I was fighting +1s (and +2s) on a character which probably cost a billion influence or so with all accolades. Since electric melee is pretty solid AOEs for a stalker, I mostly cleared out the minions without trouble. I also had bosses off, so only lieutenants, and that makes a big difference. Those lowbie teams will have the bosses. It will be a slaughter. I should be clear though, I don't think that is bad really. People should expect high level enemies to be tough. CoT and Council in PI have been something of a loophole. That loophole will close. Of course what is likely the sad consequence of this is those lowbies which used to get some runs on PI teams will now go to fire farms, where they won't even make a pretense of playing along, merely sitting at the door. They'd be better off with the DFB, Posi 1+2, Yin route, but water and players will always sink to the lowest level. 

[drbuzzard]

2 hours ago, Wavicle said:

That will only be true until people learn the new mobs and their abilities. Once people know what to expect it will quickly become easy again.

 

This is fully dependent on how many characters of significant level and equippage are on the team. Too many lowbies and they won't be able to do squat and things will go sideways. Even teams with lobwies now can steamroll CoT and council. Those lowbies often are using prestige powers for much of their attack chain. This won't cut it anymore. 

 

Again, I don't think that's a bad thing. The enemies at 50 shouldn't be a joke. 

[Wavicle]

I see no reason whatsoever that lvl 40-50 mobs should be balanced to account for teams with a bunch of low level sidekicks. Bringing a bunch of SKs SHOULD be a risk.

[Sovera]

6 minutes ago, drbuzzard said:

 

Current PI radio teams already avoid or dread carnies, malta or arachnos. The death count is generally quite high on the lowbies with unslotted powers, no defenses, and few powers in total with those factions. Council and CoT are now appreciably harder than those factions. Unless the one running the team is a good buff/debuff guy, they will be soloing missions with a bunch of lowbie corpses strewn around which randomly pop up from level rezzes and then die again. That may be a touch hyperbolic, but I cannot see teams being the free for all of inviting anyone, even fresh out of the character generator, to join a PI team. You will have to have a good core before you can carry a team of lowbies. Heck you must have seen how sketchy a 54 KM ITF can be if you don't have enough 50+1s. Council and CoT are now probably tougher than cimerorans. 

 

I was fighting +1s (and +2s) on a character which probably cost a billion influence or so with all accolades. Since electric melee is pretty solid AOEs for a stalker, I mostly cleared out the minions without trouble. I also had bosses off, so only lieutenants, and that makes a big difference. Those lowbie teams will have the bosses. It will be a slaughter. I should be clear though, I don't think that is bad really. People should expect high level enemies to be tough. CoT and Council in PI have been something of a loophole. That loophole will close. Of course what is likely the sad consequence of this is those lowbies which used to get some runs on PI teams will now go to fire farms, where they won't even make a pretense of playing along, merely sitting at the door. They'd be better off with the DFB, Posi 1+2, Yin route, but water and players will always sink to the lowest level. 

 

This is not the most politically correct answer in this context, but I don't think max level content is a place for characters 'with no defenses, unslotted powers, and few powers'. Some respect for the content is needed.

 

Same way I always look at the vet levels of an ITF team before moving from +2 to +4. If four or more have at least 15+ vet levels then I go +4, but if only two or three have that and the rest are either under level 50 or fresh 50s then I got +3 tops tops and might even go at +2 first and see how we handle it.

[drbuzzard]

32 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

I see no reason whatsoever that lvl 40-50 mobs should be balanced to account for teams with a bunch of low level sidekicks. Bringing a bunch of SKs SHOULD be a risk.

 

I agree fully. I like this change. However I also expect more people begging for fire farms. 

[drbuzzard]

29 minutes ago, Sovera said:

 

This is not the most politically correct answer in this context, but I don't think max level content is a place for characters 'with no defenses, unslotted powers, and few powers'. Some respect for the content is needed.

 

Same way I always look at the vet levels of an ITF team before moving from +2 to +4. If four or more have at least 15+ vet levels then I go +4, but if only two or three have that and the rest are either under level 50 or fresh 50s then I got +3 tops tops and might even go at +2 first and see how we handle it.

 

As I have been leveling up characters on Indomitable, and they don't have the ITF familiarity of excelsior, I've had to do these adjustments rather often. On Excelsior, there's enough people with fully IOed and incarnated builds for 4 of them to carry 4 35s with SOs. You can just get away with a +4. On Indom, you run a +4 at dire risk of team collapse if you don't start tumbling that difficulty setting fast (particularly after the kheld ambush in the first mission). 

 

We are getting a bit far afield though. I wouldn't mind if this change took people on a more clear path to team with more like level people. I'm not optimistic enough to assume that to be the case however. This is not to say I wish to have such outcomes enforced.