Debt Penality

[Mischief61]

New to HC, but not new to CoX . I started retail in closed beta. Has the Debt Penality been tweaked here at HC? Seems like my leveling is not slowed when I'm slapped with Debt like I was in retail. 

[cranebump]

I think it was tweaked some time ago, before shutdown. I wasn't around until Good vs. Evil, so I can't testify to the bone-crushing days people speak of (at least...I don't think I can).

[lemming]

It got tweaked in issue five where the penalty was reduced in missions and we didn't accumulate until level 10.

Issue six, they reduced the debt cap from ten defeats to five defeats worth.  (debt page disagrees and says this was five as well)

Issue 11 the reduced the amount of debt by another 20%

 

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Debt

[ZekeStenzland]

Debt works the same way it always has, as far as I know. Half of all xp earned goes toward paying off debt, until it is all paid off. All the rest (or all of it if you have no debt) goes toward leveling. 
 

If you use the 2xp booster, or are playing on servers with intrinsic xp boosts (like indomitable), or we’re doing lots of mapserver stuff, you might not have noticed on account of how quickly debt was paid off. 
 

Also, patrol xp pays off debt as well, if you had any. As I recall. 

[wjrasmussen]

7 minutes ago, lemming said:

It got tweaked in issue five where the penalty was reduced in missions and we didn't accumulate until level 10.

Issue six, they reduced the debt cap from ten defeats to five defeats worth.  (debt page disagrees and says this was five as well)

Issue 11 the reduced the amount of debt by another 20%

 

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Debt

I recall it always being 5 at retail and I was here at release.  Then again, I am old and perhaps forgetting.  XP Debt was a ton worse in retail in my mind though.

[lemming]

17 minutes ago, wjrasmussen said:

I recall it always being 5 at retail and I was here at release.  Then again, I am old and perhaps forgetting.  XP Debt was a ton worse in retail in my mind though.

Issue six wasn't too far into the game release, and it probably got obscured by ED being done on the same release.   I do remember that it got dropped a significant amount since my fire blaster had less debt. 😄    I remember that character got all the debt badges first in our SG.

[Doomguide2005]

14 minutes ago, wjrasmussen said:

I recall it always being 5 at retail and I was here at release.  Then again, I am old and perhaps forgetting.  XP Debt was a ton worse in retail in my mind though.

I feel you but yes it was 10 bars.  And blasters were true glass cannons.  No sets meant getting knocked about.  No sets meant your defense really was kill them first.  I had friends who spent multiple levels at the debt cap on their blasters.  Soft cap was something only SR scrappers could hope to achieve and for most of us it was a concept.  The amount needed was at best known by a few.  For most of us the value was 'lots'.  No exchanging 3 inspires for another ... running out of breakfrees got painful.  Getting thru the 30's took forever in part because of debt.  Debt these days is almost hard to get by comparison and vanishes before you're aware you have some.

[wjrasmussen]

2 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

I feel you but yes it was 10 bars.  And blasters were true glass cannons.  No sets meant getting knocked about.  No sets meant your defense really was kill them first.  I had friends who spent multiple levels at the debt cap on their blasters.  Soft cap was something only SR scrappers could hope to achieve and for most of us it was a concept.  The amount needed was at best known by a few.  For most of us the value was 'lots'.  No exchanging 3 inspires for another ... running out of breakfrees got painful.  Getting thru the 30's took forever in part because of debt.  Debt these days is almost hard to get by comparison and vanishes before you're aware you have some.

Oh, I  didn't think we were talking about bars.  I thought the accumulated penalties, which I thought was 5 deaths in a row to max out.

[wjrasmussen]

2 hours ago, lemming said:

Issue six wasn't too far into the game release, and it probably got obscured by ED being done on the same release.   I do remember that it got dropped a significant amount since my fire blaster had less debt. 😄    I remember that character got all the debt badges first in our SG.

I was there on release day.  I did see you were talking about number of bars.  I thought it was number of deaths to reach maximum debt.  That trivial point aside, I stand that it felt much worse to me back then.

Edited April 11 by wjrasmussen

[tidge]

There are a couple of things that I believe are unique to Homecoming, and at least one thing I am not certain of... all of which can make debt even less of an issue than it was at the start of Live

 

The things that I believe are HC specific are the way Patrol XP and Exploration XP now accumulates. IIRC, if you have debt these get burned "first"... that is, I am pretty sure that I've had a 10+ level character with patrol XP take a dirt nap and then after they've been rezzed don't have any debt.

 

The thing I am not certain about is Life Insurance... the kind you can get from Safeguard/Mayhem missions in the 40-45 range. The wiki implies a reduction in debt, but I feel like that it may actually prevent debt accumulation (directly, or in concert with something else).

 

The reason why I'm somewhat confused about Life Insurance are related to specific choices I make with most of my characters. I try to do all the Safeguard/Mayhem missions at the inherent levels, and generally at level 40 it is easy to get them without missing other level-appropriate content. Also by level 40, I feel like it is time to collect the debt badges for High Pain Threshold (as it is so much more straightforward than getting Freedom Phalanx Reserve member for a solo player). after I get Life Insurance I go to Dark Astoria to get clobbered (also easier at level 40) to pick up the debt without "capping" the amount of debt I accumulate. Occasionally I haven't had any debt by the time I get the Unbroken Spirit badge.

[WumpusRat]

5 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

And blasters were true glass cannons. 

 

"Don't heal me, my Defiance is at max right now!"

Headbanging Blasters riding the redline of 10 hp.

[WumpusRat]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

 

The things that I believe are HC specific are the way Patrol XP and Exploration XP now accumulates. IIRC, if you have debt these get burned "first"... that is, I am pretty sure that I've had a 10+ level character with patrol XP take a dirt nap and then after they've been rezzed don't have any debt.

 

This is correct. If you have any patrol exp the debt comes out of that first. I THINK it was that way back on live, too. Though patrol exp built up more slowly.

With the exploration badges granting patrol exp now, it's incredibly safe to faceplant. Just grab an exploration badge or two, and you're set.

[Mischief61]

Debt Penality at launch was needlessly brutal and cruel. And I have the EXALTED badge (paid off 10,000,000 debt) to prove it! LOL. People whined and cried about Enhancement Diversification, but DP at launch was waaay worse than ED!

[Player2]

XP debt is entirely counter-intuitive.   It slows down your advancement when you fail, and yet all common wisdom suggests that we actually learn from our failures.  How is it that learning from our failures slows us down while those who don't fail coast right on by to the goal more quickly?  And all it was originally was a way to keep players paying into the subscription model by making them play longer.

 

XP debt is stupid and I don't care about anyone's debt badges as a source of pride.

[Mischief61]

1 minute ago, Player2 said:

XP debt is entirely counter-intuitive.   It slows down your advancement when you fail, and yet all common wisdom suggests that we actually learn from our failures.  How is it that learning from our failures slows us down while those who don't fail coast right on by to the goal more quickly?  And all it was originally was a way to keep players paying into the subscription model by making them play longer.

 

XP debt is stupid and I don't care about anyone's debt badges as a source of pride.

Excellent point, Player2, and for the record, I do not take pride in my debt badge. It was a joke. 🤡

[Player2]

Just now, Mischief61 said:

Excellent point, Player2, and for the record, I do not take pride in my debt badge. It was a joke. 🤡

I wasn't referring to you, but there are those people who will defend the idea of XP debt to the death because "muh badges".

[Mischief61]

Wow! Really? I didn’t know that, Player2. I was a total badge whore during retail, but skipped the PvP badges because don’t like PvP. Now on HC I am only collecting badges if it gives me a fun title under my name, or the Accolade badges that give me a power I want. This time around no badging, or power-leveling. Just playing for fun. 

[tidge]

5 hours ago, Player2 said:

I wasn't referring to you, but there are those people who will defend the idea of XP debt to the death because "muh badges".

 

Setting aside the count of badges chased by some players, the red-side badge/accolade High Pain Threshold requires one of the debt badges. The parallel blue-side badge/accolade is Freedom Phalanx Reserve Member. My personal experience is that it is much easier to get badge/accolade on red side than blue side, even while knowing all the tricksy ways and places to hunt for the defeats required for the blue side badge.

[Uun]

10 minutes ago, tidge said:

Setting aside the count of badges chased by some players, the red-side badge/accolade High Pain Threshold requires one of the debt badges. 

Originally it required Deathless (1,200,000 debt repaid). In I16 it was changed to Unbroken Spirit (200,000 debt repaid). I usually hit that sometime in my 30s without any effort. I have a much harder time with the Ironman badge (1,000,000 damage taken) required for the Born in Battle accolade, particularly on high defense builds.

[tidge]

4 minutes ago, Uun said:

Originally it required Deathless (1,200,000 debt repaid). In I16 it was changed to Unbroken Spirit (200,000 debt repaid). I usually hit that sometime in my 30s without any effort. I have a much harder time with the Ironman badge (1,000,000 damage taken) required for the Born in Battle accolade, particularly on high defense builds.

 

My personal experience is that until my characters can accumulate large amounts of debt (by being higher level) I don't go out of my way to go for the Unbroken Spirit badge until about the time I can do the Patron arcs.

 

Ironman badge is a PITA, especially for low HP characters. I don't like AFK sitting in Lava or Fire, so when I want Iron Man I usually go to Recluse's Victory and duke it out with the Pillboxes.

[Jacke]

12 hours ago, Mischief61 said:

...for the record, I do not take pride in my debt badge. It was a joke. 🤡

 

I've mained an AR/Dev Blaster since 2006.  I've lived the Blaster motto:  Face-down and PROUD!  😸

[Scarlet Shocker]

I started playing a few months before I7 and Scarlet Shocker had all the debt badges before lvl 20

[Greycat]

I'll take XP debt over the million other ways other games deal with it (see: "You are now less powerful by x %... and if where you rez is in range of the enemy that killed you, you'll get killed again and be less powerful *again* by even more..." or "You lose equipment and have to try to run back or lose it all - plus whatever you lose by getting killed while runnign back unequipped." )

[Ukase]

As of late, with the more frequent occurrence of Nemesis invasions, getting the FPR on blue side is really almost faster and easier than HPT on redside. The problem has to do with your luck - did an invasion happen when you could take advantage of it? If not, then you have to wait until your level 40 to have any kind of real chance to stack up 100 fake kills. For whatever reason, the only time I see fakes under level 40, is in Anton Sampson's missions, and then, they're just the boss at the end you have to clobber. Even set to 0/8, you get 1. Mind you, that's anecdotal evidence, not to be confused for a verified factual statement. There may be better contacts, with better missions; I just haven't found them yet. 

I mean, you do a pos1 - that will get you gearsmasher. No need to suffer through a synapse unless you just want the merits or just like lengthy kill-alls. 
A yin TF - will get you on your way for Tankbuster. And if you don't get it there, by the time you're 40 and hit market crash for your free purple, you'd likely finish that badge. 
And of course, there are a number of contacts that have freaks in them, so there's no doubt in my mind, and proven by my own experience you can get this badge naturally, just playing the game. No need to hunt. 
The fakes are always the bottle neck for me. For whatever reason, I feel ineffective unless I can get the accolades as soon as I can get them. Sometimes, I feel like my build needs the stat boosts. Sometimes, it's the goal I'm chasing. Either way, I'd rather get it sooner than later. 

The High Pain Threshold, for redsiders - you simply can't get it before level 30, unless you're just fortunate enough to get on someone else's team for The Unlucky Artifact badge mission before you hit 30. The contact that gives it is a level 30-35 contact. And you usually have to do a few missions before he'll give out the badge mission. Even if you try the abandon, reselect a mission hack, sometimes he'll still give you other stuff before that one-off badge mission. 


As for XP debt - the patrol xp that we get from explorations has made any debt insignificant and meaningless, other than the lessons you learn from the defeat. (like don't slam a shot of whiskey and run into Hro-Dotz with your blaster. It's just not wise.  It can be great fun, but still, not a good idea) 

The worst part about the HPT is the debt badge. It's annoying going into monster island just to commit suicide 15 times or however many it takes to reach it. Could just wait to level 50 and die 3x. But, waiting to 50...might as well go FPR instead. But, that's just me. Opinions and preferences will certainly vary. 

[tidge]

High Pain Threshold / Freedom Phalanx Reserve is IMO not really worth pursuing that early (say... pre 35), modulo AT, since it is percentage boost to HP. MOAR is MOAR (of course), but it is EVEN MOAR at 40+