Scrapper or Brute?

[Yomo Kimyata]

9 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Figuring out where to put ATOs is activity? Is that not a one time activity?

 

It can be.

 

Some of my scrappers have at least two builds:  one primarily for single hard targets and one for standard play (+4/x8 for me at endgame, which may not be for everyone).  I'll usually pick a different power to put the Critical Strike proc in for each build.

 

Also, look at Savage Melee set.  Do you want to take Hemorrhage?  Some people do and some people don't.  It's great for proccing out, but if you don't want to use it it's useless.  Also, are you paying any attention to the stacks of Blood Fury that you are building up?  I'm not a pro on the set yet, but there are definitely times I want to avoid putting myself in lockout since I want the reduced endurance.

 

 

[Ashford]

Difference between a brute and a scrapper

 

Scrappers are absolute wimps until level 50

 

Brutes start strong and then fall off at around 50

 

Scrappers are good for general content

 

Brutes are really only get to shine as fire farmers and even these days some builds can outclass a brute in that respect, brutes get no benifits from team play, scrapper, stalker, tankers out class them. Brutes kinda just exist, but are redundant unless their fury mechanic gets a tweak in the future. 

[Haijinx]

You can slot the Scrapper ATOs around 10, not 50.  Just for those underwhelmed by Scrapper performance.

[MizuUeumatsu]

10 hours ago, Ashford said:

Difference between a brute and a scrapper

 

Scrappers are absolute wimps until level 50

 

Brutes start strong and then fall off at around 50

 

Scrappers are good for general content

 

Brutes are really only get to shine as fire farmers and even these days some builds can outclass a brute in that respect, brutes get no benifits from team play, scrapper, stalker, tankers out class them. Brutes kinda just exist, but are redundant unless their fury mechanic gets a tweak in the future.

I'm happy with my brute and I don't farm but that happiness is built on nostalgia of classic/live and I know tanker would be better.

[aethereal]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

You can slot the Scrapper ATOs around 10, not 50.  Just for those underwhelmed by Scrapper performance.

However, the non-superior proc has half the PPM of the superior proc, and your global recharge will be much worse.  There really is a sharp cliff of power at 50 for scrappers.

[Sovera]

The number of people who say 'if Brutes are not the best at something then there is no reason to play them' is baffling. Considering the easy game CoH is this reeks of Guild Wars 2 during the dungeons era with the game so easy but the community so loud if someone did not play the bleeding edge meta builds.

[Lunar Ronin]

7 minutes ago, Sovera said:

The number of people who say 'if Brutes are not the best at something then there is no reason to play them' is baffling. Considering the easy game CoH is this reeks of Guild Wars 2 during the dungeons era with the game so easy but the community so loud if someone did not play the bleeding edge meta builds.

 

Welcome to Homecoming's advanced modes era.

[Sovera]

2 minutes ago, Lunar Ronin said:

 

Welcome to Homecoming's advanced modes era.

 

Sure, but it's still 0.5% of the total content of the game, and it's something people go in to be slathered in buffs with rolling Barriers and etc.

 

It's not like we're talking bringing in a Sentinel.

 

🙂

[Lunar Ronin]

7 minutes ago, Sovera said:

 

Sure, but it's still 0.5% of the total content of the game, and it's something people go in to be slathered in buffs with rolling Barriers and etc.

 

It's not like we're talking bringing in a Sentinel.

 

🙂

 

Oh, I 100% agree with you.  Advanced modes can be done with any competent mix of players, ATs, and power sets.  Even 4*.  But there has been an increasingly prevalent attitude of "meta or bust" among part of the Homecoming player base since advanced mode TFs/SFs were added.  One of the main reasons that I mostly play solo now.

[Haijinx]

13 minutes ago, Sovera said:

 

Sure, but it's still 0.5% of the total content of the game, and it's something people go in to be slathered in buffs with rolling Barriers and etc.

 

It's not like we're talking bringing in a Sentinel.

 

🙂

 

Youd think Sentinels would be good at hard mode stuff, since they get scrapper armors and complete ranged attack chains. 

 

But who knows.  

[Sovera]

Just now, Haijinx said:

 

Youd think Sentinels would be good at hard mode stuff, since they get scrapper armors and complete ranged attack chains. 

 

But who knows.  

 

I think so as well, but the thing with rolling buffs, especially Barrier, is that any paper thin AT becomes a bulky barbarian as the Offender teams showed. I haven't even done hardmodes to be talking.

[Haijinx]

Just now, Sovera said:

 

I think so as well, but the thing with rolling buffs, especially Barrier, is that any paper thin AT becomes a bulky barbarian as the Offender teams showed. I haven't even done hardmodes to be talking.

 

Ahh. Do Sents really fall that far behind Blasters ranged only?  Except on those sets where the T9 is sort of gimped?

[FupDup]

6 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

 

Ahh. Do Sents really fall that far behind Blasters ranged only?  Except on those sets where the T9 is sort of gimped?

A very large amount of Blasters' damage edge comes from their secondary set melee attacks, so if they stay entirely at range the gap does get a fair bit smaller (especially if the Sent uses an offensive armor like Bio or Stone).

 

Other sources of disparity include the sniper replacements usually having lower DPA than quicksnipes (except Zapping Bolt which is actually stronger than Zapp) and that Blasters get a stacking damage buff via Defiance. But on the other hand, Sents all have a -res debuff that ignores purple patch so that makes the comparison that much muddier. 

 

In general, Sents' damage weakness gets severely over-exaggerated. They ain't Blasters but they also aren't unproc'd Controllers or Petless Masterminds either. There's still gonna be a gap but it's not some gigantic chasm-sized gap.  

 

Now, as to why Sents aren't favored in hardmode, it mostly comes down to the game's mechanics favoring massive support buff/debuff stacking to the point that the optimal team comp is usually one melee AT (Scrapper or Tank) amped up by a mixed harem of 7 Corruptors and/or Defenders. Sents are a class that choses to give up a bit of damage in exchange for self-survival, but the amount of survival they gain isn't going to be enough to tank in hardmode and they aren't specialized at any particular duty (metas usually favor specialists over generalists). 

Edited April 27 by FupDup

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

The number of people who say 'if Brutes are not the best at something then there is no reason to play them' is baffling. Considering the easy game CoH is this reeks of Guild Wars 2 during the dungeons era with the game so easy but the community so loud if someone did not play the bleeding edge meta builds.

 

Was it baffling that Scrappers had to be the best at damage and incredibly edge cases (much moreso than the considerably more plentiful Tanker cases of outdamaging Brutes you defend) were the justification for nerfing Brutes? I'm pretty sure those were not even bleeding edge bulls, but bleeding edge builds backed by a team.

[Erratic1]

52 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

 

Youd think Sentinels would be good at hard mode stuff, since they get scrapper armors and complete ranged attack chains. 

 

But who knows.  

 

And reduced range and damage.

[Sovera]

26 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Was it baffling that Scrappers had to be the best at damage and incredibly edge cases (much moreso than the considerably more plentiful Tanker cases of outdamaging Brutes you defend) were the justification for nerfing Brutes? I'm pretty sure those were not even bleeding edge bulls, but bleeding edge builds backed by a team.

 

I don't much care to be honest. This is not aimed at you, Erratic. But I just don't much care. We are playing an easy mode game where what is considered the norm is soloing at +4x8. That's how easy the game is.

 

So the arguments, much like my remark about the GW2, is how one class/AT does it 30 seconds faster. But both are still soloing at +4x8. It's not that one can do it and the other not, not like a Blood Death Knight from WoW being able to solo a dungeon while the other 99% of the classes and specs can only watch.

 

 

As for Tankers the nerfs are on the horizon already. Hopefully they will be light because no one wants to go back to slowly whittling our way through missions.

[Erratic1]

2 minutes ago, Sovera said:

I don't much care to be honest. This is not aimed at you, Erratic. But I just don't much care. We are playing an easy mode game where what is considered the norm is soloing at +4x8. That's how easy the game is.

 

If you don't care, why do you keep ending up defending the status quo?

 

3 minutes ago, Sovera said:

So the arguments, much like my remark about the GW2, is how one class/AT does it 30 seconds faster. But both are still soloing at +4x8. It's not that one can do it and the other not, not like a Blood Death Knight from WoW being able to solo a dungeon while the other 99% of the classes and specs can only watch.

 

That was the case before Brute nerfs and before Tanker buffs--all the melee classes could do +4x8. And yet both things occurred. So that standard does not seem to be the measuring stick.

 

5 minutes ago, Sovera said:

As for Tankers the nerfs are on the horizon already. Hopefully they will be light because no one wants to go back to slowly whittling our way through missions.

 

Not sure Tankers need wholesale nerfs and I am not sure the origin of the notion Tanker nerfs are coming. Currently (as in while I am typing this...well, parked in a place where he won't be attacked) playing a Tanker solo in a mission. Playing at 0x6 because it is not like the extra foes are anything but xp generation for him.  Could probably bump the difficulty but volume is more efficient.

[Sovera]

41 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

If you don't care, why do you keep ending up defending the status quo?

 

 

That was the case before Brute nerfs and before Tanker buffs--all the melee classes could do +4x8. And yet both things occurred. So that standard does not seem to be the measuring stick.

 

 

Not sure Tankers need wholesale nerfs and I am not sure the origin of the notion Tanker nerfs are coming. Currently (as in while I am typing this...well, parked in a place where he won't be attacked) playing a Tanker solo in a mission. Playing at 0x6 because it is not like the extra foes are anything but xp generation for him.  Could probably bump the difficulty but volume is more efficient.

 

The only reason I bring it up is because I don't agree with the methodology. We look at the builds being used as the standards for the testing and it's '4-6 damage procs, incarnates to sustain endurance (despite being fought against easy soft non incarnates) and/or survival, and against soft +3 Arachnos'. It's the whole '-res procs are amazeballs' fiasco since the testing is done on a +0 enemy and now it's become a truth that some sets are just bad and some sets are amazing while ignoring the 'better' sets invariably can slot two -res procs.

 

I just don't argue much because the results are there and I'm not a truth denier. It IS true, the testing does not lie. But does 90% of HC build in the same way (I know I don't) that these results must be touted as the way-things-are-and-things-need-to-be-balanced-around-those-results? I don't know. Maybe 90% of HC DOES build like this and it's prevalent.

 

 

But, my gut, between what I see, the builds I see posted even by people who know how to build, the conversations about pugs etc doesn't show this. But what do I know? I'm no seer. Maybe it is. But as long as we get 'Tankers are OP because Rad/SS can X!' while conveniently slipping out SS allows to skip accuracy and boosts damage in 160% and Rad comes with two proc bombs, and SS' Footstomps reliably help the recharge the proc bombs and four-two-six-procs-per-attack are missing then I will keep on weakly raising a hand and saying 'c'mon, it's not really like that...'

 

I'm not even a rabid Tanker fan. I have easily twice the Brute builds and playtime than I have a Tanker. I like Tankers because I level one at by level 10 I'm usually x6 or x8 and I like the early feel of being a super-hero even if later on everyone can do it where my damage does not keep up with everyone else since I don't do level 50-only-six-damage-procs-and-live-off-incarnates.

 

But I could, I just choose not, so I can't and won't bury my head in the sand and say it's false.

 

[Erratic1]

36 minutes ago, Sovera said:

I just don't argue much because the results are there and I'm not a truth denier. It IS true, the testing does not lie. But does 90% of HC build in the same way (I know I don't) that these results must be touted as the way-things-are-and-things-need-to-be-balanced-around-those-results? I don't know. Maybe 90% of HC DOES build like this and it's prevalent.

 

 

But, my gut, between what I see, the builds I see posted even by people who know how to build, the conversations about pugs etc doesn't show this. But what do I know? I'm no seer. Maybe it is. But as long as we get 'Tankers are OP because Rad/SS can X!' while conveniently slipping out SS allows to skip accuracy and boosts damage in 160% and Rad comes with two proc bombs, and SS' Footstomps reliably help the recharge the proc bombs and four-two-six-procs-per-attack are missing then I will keep on weakly raising a hand and saying 'c'mon, it's not really like that...'

 

It is not just SS or Rad/SS that outperforms on a Tanker vs Brute comparison. Ston has a whole host of combinations documented. And again, it required a team pushing a Brute to his maximum (with a limited number of offensive sets) to outperform Scrappers and draw Brutes on the whole a nerf.

 

In any event, going to drop that issue.....

 

36 minutes ago, Sovera said:

I'm not even a rabid Tanker fan. I have easily twice the Brute builds and playtime than I have a Tanker. I like Tankers because I level one at by level 10 I'm usually x6 or x8 and I like the early feel of being a super-hero even if later on everyone can do it where my damage does not keep up with everyone else since I don't do level 50-only-six-damage-procs-and-live-off-incarnates.

 

And when can your Brutes turn things up to x6? I tried upping the numbers on my most recent Brute (Fire/EA) and it was unhealthy in the 20s. Yeah, he no doubt finishes single targets faster than a Tanker (say my currently worked upon WP/KM Tanker) but a group beating on you, without the same level of defenses as a Tanker, is a path to a dirt nap. This is strictly on the solo front. Groupwise? Really depends on the group. This past week, on both the Brute and the Tanker, I held the door during the Freakshow ambush at the end of the Penny Yin TF in the reactor. The Brute had help (and retreated once or twice). The Tanker did the job solo. I did not even realize I was alone until suddenly the TF was over because Clamor had reappeared and been put down by the rest of the team while the Tanker held the door.

 

Of course, that is what a Tanker is designed to do--tank. The obvious benefit to the team is they were all able to focus on killing Clamor while not being disturbed by the horde being kept entertained by the Tanker. Brutes do not bring that to the table. 

 

But they bring damage! Scrapper, Stalkers, and Blasters bring more. And in no way is Brute survivability, even those that can do +4x8, going to get you past the nastier AVs. Lord Recluse eats my +4x8 clearing SS/Bio Brute casually. Anything less than an AV anyone can tank with a team behind them. Controllers bring the obvious, control. Defenders and Corruptors are buffing? What precisely is a Brute bringing to a team? Substandard damage and even more substandard tanking ability. 

 

Yeah, if everyone were playing on +0x0, who cares? But that is not how people play.  And it is not like the difference in damage is, a lot of the time, even remotely close. No Brute ever leaps into a spawn and <<BAM!!!>> they are all dead short of the foes being grey in color. Blasters do that, some as often as every 30 seconds. Brutes are single-target experts? Pretty sure Scrappers and Stalkers got that beat handily (see Pylon tests). 

 

In any event, this excursion down the usual path is over for me. I am not going to continue to drag the thread off topic. 

 

Edit: FWIW, I have one more Brute than I do either Scrappers or Tankers at level 50.

Edited April 27 by Erratic1

[Lazarus]

3 hours ago, Sovera said:

As for Tankers the nerfs are on the horizon already. Hopefully they will be light because no one wants to go back to slowly whittling our way through missions.

What nerfs,..I've scoured the most recent patch notes and found no mention of nerfs. 

[Sovera]

6 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

What nerfs,..I've scoured the most recent patch notes and found no mention of nerfs. 

 

Horizon means the future, not the past where patch notes are.

[biostem]

On 4/22/2024 at 12:20 AM, hakurr said:

i am wanting to make a Savage Melee / Radiation Armor toon what would be better Scrapper or Brute? i mostly play solo so i don't want to have to count on team members to make up for any short fallings. so my question is should i go Scrapper or Brute?

Since you mentioned mainly playing solo, the question as to whether you'd be better served playing a scrapper or brute can be answered by telling us about your play style;  If you fight some groups, then maybe stop for a bit to do other stuff IRL, then a scrapper would be better so you don't lose out on any fury you've generated.  If, instead, you tend to binge-play, for longer uninterrupted periods, then a brute, where you can go go go without distraction may be more to your liking.  The only other factor, (which is kind of related to the previous one), is whether you want to eventually take any stealth powers, because I feel that also leads more to playing a scrapper.  All that being said, if you do plan on ever teaming, and if you have room to take taunt in your build, then the ST "punchvoke" and AoE taunt, with its -range, might make playing a brute a better choice long-term...

[Infinitum]

3 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

What precisely is a Brute bringing to a team? Substandard damage and even more substandard tanking ability. 

 

You should stop saying things that aren't true everywhere and every time you post about this. 

 

It just doesn't happen on a wholesale basis that a brute will be called out day to day in game for not bringing more damage than a blaster or scrapper or be less survivable than a tanker.  If it happens I would advise to steer clear of such toxic elitism anyway.  That's not the game as a rule. That is the exception. I have personally never seen it and damn sure wouldn't tolerate it on my teams. 

 

Tankers will probably get an adjustment, but brutes going back to the days of yor approaching and exceeding damage levels of blasters, scrappers with twice the survivability won't be coming back.  Nor should they. 

 

There's not too much currently wrong with Brutes the way they are outside of an ATO adjustment. 

 

If it weren't for procs tankers would be in an ok spot also, the cases you keep bringing up were Tankers procd to the gills - otherwise they aren't outdamaging a Brute. 

[Erratic1]

13 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

 

You should stop saying things that aren't true everywhere and every time you post about this.  

 

And you should stop putting words in my mouth. To wit...

 

13 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

 

It just doesn't happen on a wholesale basis that a brute will be called out day to day in game for not bringing more damage than a blaster or scrapper or be less survivable than a tanker.  If it happens I would advise to steer clear of such toxic elitism anyway.  That's not the game as a rule. That is the exception. I have personally never seen it and damn sure wouldn't tolerate it on my teams. 

 

I did not say Brutes were being called out did I? I asked a questiton: WHAT ARE BRUTES BRINGING TO A TEAM THAT IS NOT BETTER PROVIDED BY ANOTHER AT?

 

Don't  dance around things that were not suggested or shift focus. Answer the question.

 

13 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

 

Tankers will probably get an adjustment, but brutes going back to the days of yor approaching and exceeding damage levels of blasters, scrappers with twice the survivability won't be coming back.  Nor should they. 

 And here is more of you translating things I never said. Indeed, last time this came up I left the floor open for quite a bit of things other than damage. So stop trying to say otherwise.

 

13 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

 

There's not too much currently wrong with Brutes the way they are outside of an ATO adjustment. 

 

If it weren't for procs tankers would be in an ok spot also, the cases you keep bringing up were Tankers procd to the gills - otherwise they aren't outdamaging a Brute. 

 

And yet if Brutes are proc'd to the gills...oh wait, doesn't work for them does it?

Edited April 27 by Erratic1

[Sancerre]

brutes just offer an optional middle ground between scrappers and tankers.  generally speaking, for teamplay brutes are not 'more useful' than having another scrapper or another tanker on the squad.  brutes will do less damage than a scrapper but offer some better mobbing control with taunts and will feel more tanky with party buffs.  for soloplay, brutes dont really feel any more 'tanky' than scrappers typically because armorsets run the same exact values as scrappers and it is very difficult to get above 75% resists without temporary and/or party buffs... and you just do less damage.

 

that said, brutes are perfectly fine where they are at.  if brutes did the same damage as scrappers but were more tanky, we would be having the same conversation about scrappers being pointless.  if brutes were just as tanky as tankers but did more damage, we would be having the same conversation about tankers being pointless.  brutes are entirely functional/playable but the 'pure' classes are just better when optimized in the current patch.

 

funny enough, i made this same argument for sentinels in a different thread and got all kinds of unhappy responses.  lets see if it happens again.........