High level enemy group revamps

[lemming]

They have modified stuff when it's done live.   And my post about "This sucks", was just a general rule, not directed especially at you.

[Eiko-chan]

Just now, Glacier Peak said:

It's not unrealistic at all - it's worked this way for five years now. If players care enough about something, they'll do it. If a player gets on to the beta server, they can instantly level any character to 50, get all Incarnates, badges, accolades, and IOs, anything they need for testing is free and easy accessible. 

That is precisely why it's not a realistic expectation. People are going to hop into beta testing at level 50 with Incarnate abilities. They are not going to be testing the levelling experience, which means there will be a lot of issues that get missed until it goes live.

[Glacier Peak]

1 minute ago, Eiko-chan said:

That is precisely why it's not a realistic expectation. People are going to hop into beta testing at level 50 with Incarnate abilities. They are not going to be testing the levelling experience, which means there will be a lot of issues that get missed until it goes live.

That's not true at all. Your speculation is evident - when players get on to test something, it goes through all kinds of testing methods. Some players just complain about patch notes without even logging in, some players go above and beyond and find actual bugs or issues. It's not just level 50 Incarnates like you assume.

[lemming]

1 minute ago, Glacier Peak said:

It's not unrealistic at all - it's worked this way for five years now. If players care enough about something, they'll do it. If a player gets on to the beta server, they can instantly level any character to 50, get all Incarnates, badges, accolades, and IOs, anything they need for testing is free and easy accessible. 

And you can even generate a menu that will get you all the enhancements for a build from Mids.

 

It's a good platform for testing builds and doing ad hoc tests of upcoming changes.   Though the testing in Alpha is usually more malleable and tends to be a longer process.   The change you're against was in there for quite a few months there and did get feedback, some of which was used.    Not sure how many MMs got tested on it though.  

[lemming]

9 minutes ago, Eiko-chan said:

That is precisely why it's not a realistic expectation. People are going to hop into beta testing at level 50 with Incarnate abilities. They are not going to be testing the levelling experience, which means there will be a lot of issues that get missed until it goes live.

And you're wrong.   Are things missed? Yes, because that's just the nature of software QA, and it's not like we even have testing plans at our level, but there are thousands of interacting parts that may or may not be evident.    (See Rikti portals in the war zone arc as an unintended side effect that got missed originally)

[PeregrineFalcon]

22 minutes ago, Eiko-chan said:

That is precisely why it's not a realistic expectation.

Well, this is the way that the Homecoming developers do it, it's the way the devs did it on the retail servers, and it's the way most other game companies do it. So, realistic expectation or not, you can either go with it or you can bang your head ineffectually against a brick wall forever. It's completely your call.

 

I'm not saying that I'm ok with it, I'm just the messenger.

[Excraft]

On 5/11/2024 at 11:50 PM, Ukase said:

Like yourself, I'm no expert either. But, let us suppose for the sake of argument you are correct and there is no obligation to appease the players. How do you think that plays out over time?

 

HC is not a commercial enterprise and it never will be.  What difference would it make to the HC crew if HC lost a lot of players?  This is a passion project run by a group of volunteers in their spare time.  If they wanted to, they could block access to anyone and everyone except family and friends if they wanted to and go back to being an underground invite-only server.  HC can continue to do what they're doing now with or without the rest of us here.  They're under no obligation to any of us players nor are they beholden to any of us.  Other servers are chugging away just fine with a limited player base as well.  Losing players would be much more of a concern if this were a for-profit venture. 

[Luminara]

19 minutes ago, Eiko-chan said:

That is precisely why it's not a realistic expectation. People are going to hop into beta testing at level 50 with Incarnate abilities. They are not going to be testing the levelling experience, which means there will be a lot of issues that get missed until it goes live.

 

The people who engage in betas here test things at different levels and with multiple characters.  I know that because I've been in the beta program since the TA revamp went to the beta server.  You don't know that because you've made an assumption based on your own methodology and lack of interest.

 

[Eiko-chan]

3 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

it's the way the devs did it on the retail servers

No it is not. The retail devs routinely made changes to things after things went live. It's absolutely ignorant to claim that most game developers do not change things that went live from a beta. 

 

2 minutes ago, Excraft said:

HC is not a commercial enterprise and it never will be. 

HC is a registered LLC that pays its operating costs from player donations. While it is not currently operating on a profit factor, there is nothing preventing them from doing so save possibly the license agreement with NCSoft. Without a playerbase, they would not be able to secure those donations to keep the servers operating.

[Ghost]

1 minute ago, Eiko-chan said:

No it is not. The retail devs routinely made changes to things after things went live. It's absolutely ignorant to claim that most game developers do not change things that went live from a beta. 

 

HC is a registered LLC that pays its operating costs from player donations. While it is not currently operating on a profit factor, there is nothing preventing them from doing so save possibly the license agreement with NCSoft. Without a playerbase, they would not be able to secure those donations to keep the servers operating.

Without all the players, they wouldn’t need the servers.

 

Just sayin

[tidge]

[Excraft]

13 minutes ago, Eiko-chan said:

HC is a registered LLC that pays its operating costs from player donations. While it is not currently operating on a profit factor, there is nothing preventing them from doing so save possibly the license agreement with NCSoft. Without a playerbase, they would not be able to secure those donations to keep the servers operating.

 

Again, so what?  The only reason they're taking donations is to cover the costs of running multiple servers which are needed to accommodate the number of players and spread the load out.  Less players = less servers = less money needed.  HC operated for years without taking any player donations.  With no players, it's less of an expense which they could go back to paying out of their own pocket.   

 

Also, how many times has HC said they're never going to be a for-profit business?  They're "not currently operating for-profit" because they don't want to and have said countless times they never will, especially now with the license agreement with NC Soft.

[Force Redux]

On 5/8/2024 at 4:34 PM, Krimson said:

The major difference is you EXPECT to be at a disadvantage in Secret World. I never expected to feel super or powerful in that game. I didn't care for Legends, but the first iteration felt like playing a Stephen King novel.

 

in TSW, a Gaia-charged bee that flew into my mouth gave me superpowers, I certainly expected to feel powerful open world. particularly with my shotgun and hammer! 😃😃

 

((just not in instances))

 

I should totally remake my Illuminati character in CoH!

Edited May 14 by Force Redux

[golstat2003]

2 hours ago, Eiko-chan said:

If this is true, this is a bad stance to have. The beta is not the live servers. Expecting your player base to expend a lot of time and effort - and levelling - on beta testing is aspirational but grossly unrealistic. 

 

But I don't believe this is actually the case. 

 

There is no leveling or time or effort on the beta server. There are insta levels (even to a specific level if needed), IOs (all IOs available), etc on test.

 

And there are settings where you can insta kills mobs or insta complete missions as part of testing there.

[Jacke]

46 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

There is no leveling or time or effort on the beta server. There are insta levels (even to a specific level if needed), IOs (all IOs available), etc on test.

 

And there are settings where you can insta kills mobs or insta complete missions as part of testing there.

 

That's the case on the Closed Alpha and Ope Beta Shards.

 

That's not the case on the Closed Beta Shard Vanguard.  It's a persistent small-population environment that provides a final check on changes.  There are no massive testing advantages there like on the ones I mentioned in the last paragraph.

[shortguy on indom]

3 hours ago, Eiko-chan said:

My suggestion and feedback post was quite reasoned. My general post asking where I was supposed to post about it was not. But then some GM came and pasted them together sloppily and now it's a big mess.

Agree.  Not sure with what happened w/this thread at some point, but beyond recognition at times. lol.  

I spent some time w/the testing, if not what you were after I may have misinterpreted what to test. LMK.

If you want, willing to run some of this content w/ya so I can understand betterer.

None of this testing means anything, but am willing to listen at least.  Not in any position to recommend anything, Not affiliated or using an alter non-GM ego. lol

[Doc_Scorpion]

5 hours ago, Eiko-chan said:

That is precisely why it's not a realistic expectation. People are going to hop into beta testing at level 50 with Incarnate abilities. They are not going to be testing the levelling experience, which means there will be a lot of issues that get missed until it goes live.

Well, you're absolutely dead wrong.  My standard routine (when it's applicable) is to start in Outbreak and work my way through the lower level stuff.  (Occasionally using the pop menu to jump 3-4 levels to save time.)  And I pretty much only use DO or SO enhancements.  The Lorax speaks for the Truffula Trees, and in beta testing, I make sure and speak for the low and mid level game.  (I give and grant I'm one of the few who does so, but we do exist and we do put in the work.)

Some of us do give a flying fig about the course of the game and do our part to participate in the opportunity we're given to do that.

Edited May 14 by Doc_Scorpion

[Ukase]

4 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

I make sure and speak for the low and mid level game.

You really can't know how pleased I am to read this. Before stone blast came out, I was on Brainstorm, running a few missions at level 5, then 10, then 15, and then when I got to 20, it went live...I just didn't have the time to get on to try it earlier. To be honest, I was kind of irritated, because from the outside looking in, with my limited time to do that kind of thing with note-taking and stopping to analyze combat logs ...well, it just seemed like I heard about it 2 weeks after the announcement it was in beta to be tested, and then poof - it hit the server. 

I had no idea what specifically to test, so I figured I would just level up the character as I might normally do, only skipping every few levels to expedite things, as not much is going to change. Hard to really evaluate a power until it gets some slots - but how it performs with just a few is also important - at least to me.
So, I'm thrilled someone is taking this approach. Thank you!

[Doc_Scorpion]

5 minutes ago, Ukase said:

well, it just seemed like I heard about it 2 weeks after the announcement it was in beta to be tested

Protip:  (Which sounds snarkier than I mean it to be)  Go into the Beta section of the forums, and follow the Patch Notes subforum.  That way you'll know as soon as change hits the Beta.

[Eiko-chan]

17 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

Well, you're absolutely dead wrong. 

One person is nice, but it's not a solid testing pool. This also doesn't find issues in the back half of levelling. Do you often check the 30-50 stuff? Are you the only one doing this?

 

Having a policy of "nothing changes after it goes live" is bad policy. I also don't believe it's the actual policy.

[PeregrineFalcon]

5 minutes ago, Eiko-chan said:

Having a policy of "nothing changes after it goes live" is bad policy. I also don't believe it's the actual policy.

At no point did I say nothing changes after it goes live. What I said was "What they generally don't do is change things in response to complaints after its gone live." Sure, there have been exceptions, but in general you'll find it's much easier to get things changed while it's still on the beta server, still in testing, that it is once it's gone live.

 

And no, Doc Scorpion isn't the only person who does testing under level 50. I routinely see people on the test server under level 50. And, in the last set of feedback threads, specifically the ones about the changes to the Council and CoT, you'll see my posts where I specifically talk about my testing with characters in the 30 - 46 range.

[golstat2003]

2 hours ago, Jacke said:

 

That's the case on the Closed Alpha and Ope Beta Shards.

 

That's not the case on the Closed Beta Shard Vanguard.  It's a persistent small-population environment that provides a final check on changes.  There are no massive testing advantages there like on the ones I mentioned in the last paragraph.

 

Correct. Just pointing out that the person who I was responding to has so misconceptions about testing.

[Eiko-chan]

23 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

in general you'll find it's much easier to get things changed while it's still on the beta server, still in testing, that it is once it's gone live.

Yeah, well, I wasn't here for the beta testing. I'm here now. It's frankly none of your fucking business why this is the first chance I've had to say something.

[PeregrineFalcon]

3 minutes ago, Eiko-chan said:

Yeah, well, I wasn't here for the beta testing. I'm here now. It's frankly none of your fucking business why this is the first chance I've had to say something.

I'm not berating you for past actions. I'm trying to tell you what works and what you should do going forward if you want to have a chance to actually influence changes that you want/don't want.

 

At no point did I even ask why this is the first chance that you've had to say anything. You're responding to your own thoughts, not to what I've actually written.

[Sakura Tenshi]

To put into perspective why the Council needed a buff, let’s put this into perspective: if you tried to recreate one of their level 50 minions in AE, you wouldn’t get full EXP rewards if you fought them at level 1. They had a single attack and brawl. Somehow live devs felt that warranted full EXP rewards. Combined with increased spawning rates and largely being smashing and lethal damage group, they were fought in radios explicitly to farm rewards, even groups going so far as to avoid any other enemy group in radio missions.