What AT is best for tanking multiple groups? 'cause "Tank" ain't it.

[Scarlet Shocker]

14 hours ago, Snarky said:

I love Hyperbole.  But once we get into the "do you think I am stupid" range it starts to get up on my nerve.

 

I've always found Hyperbole very underwhelming. In fact on many toons I usually skip it, since it almost always fails to do what I want it to. It promises so much, and delivers so little, especially on the ATs that do damage.

[Ironblade]

15 hours ago, kryori said:

For what it's worth, I'm not saying that tanks can't manage agro.  I'm saying that they can't manage agro any better than an AT with better damage.

I think we need to clarify what you mean by "manage aggro".

You can't control more than 16 targets at once.  That's just how the game is designed.

 

HOWEVER, you absolutely can have complete control over one or a small number of elite bosses, archvillains, giant monsters, whatever.  When I'm tanking, I can keep the AV or whatever from even looking at anyone else.  Can I control every minion in the area?  No, and I don't care and I don't need to.  Any team should be able to handle some minions.  The tank's job is to manage the enemies that can one-shot people or throw an AoE that devastates half the team.

[tidge]

The post above by @Ironblade has succinctly identified what I consider to be the true state of affairs for 'aggro play'. It's been almost 20 years since a Tanker could do things like herd all the Rikti monkeys on the PI map. The game has long evolved past the "wait for the Tank to herd them" style of gameplay... for one thing the target caps for damage exist.

 

I occasionally see some other sides to whatever the OP's complaint is:

• I'll often use non-tank characters to grab aggro from distant groups, simply to speed up clear times
• It is not at all uncommon that my non-tanks can peel the attention of single enemies that the tank really ought to be holding the attention of

In the case of the former, I'm doing it because we can handle it. It's not because the Tanker is inferior.

 

In the case of the latter, I don't think it is that big of a deal... minimally I hope it demonstrates to the Tanker's player that they need to step up their game.

[lemming]

9 hours ago, Snarky said:

I mostly run it for lulz with a couple Supergrouos I discord with.  It is a solid damage dealer, of course.  I play a lot of “standard” 50 content but not a ton of started content.  If I remember correctly this one has been in 1 star LGTF and both 1 and 2 star ITF.  It is a shock and awe damage dealer that I play aggressively and dont over rely on ROTP. But it is great to have lol. Most of my Blasters are built for range.  But this one is built for damage.  Incarnate picks are Alpha Musculature +45%, Interface Reactive 75% chance damage, and Hybrid Assault with the double strike for immediate energy damage. It is all about making the first punch be the last punch. 

That's my primary function for my blasters.  Burn everything down and the tank doesn't have to worry about an agro cap.

[Sanguinesun]

16 minutes ago, tidge said:

The post above by @Ironblade has succinctly identified what I consider to be the true state of affairs for 'aggro play'. It's been almost 20 years since a Tanker could do things like herd all the Rikti monkeys on the PI map. The game has long evolved past the "wait for the Tank to herd them" style of gameplay... for one thing the target caps for damage exist.

 

I occasionally see some other sides to whatever the OP's complaint is:

• I'll often use non-tank characters to grab aggro from distant groups, simply to speed up clear times
• It is not at all uncommon that my non-tanks can peel the attention of single enemies that the tank really ought to be holding the attention of

In the case of the former, I'm doing it because we can handle it. It's not because the Tanker is inferior.

 

In the case of the latter, I don't think it is that big of a deal... minimally I hope it demonstrates to the Tanker's player that they need to step up their game.

 

 

Lets not forget Storm defenders doing the same for everyone in Perez park who would wait at the entrace from Atlas in massive numbers either hehe.

[Luminara]

No archetype is supposed to control all of the aggro.  The hard lesson learned in the early days was that allowing that kind of gameplay obviated archetypes.  When tankers could herd entire maps, controllers and scrappers were pointless.  When controllers could use AoE Holds eight times every minute, tankers and defenders were pointless.  That was the real reason behind target and aggro caps, ensuring that all archetypes and all members of a team had an opportunity to contribute.  That they had a reason to play and to be part of a team.

 

Aggro was meant to be shared, just like XP.  Tank with whatever suits your fancy, but don't expect to own all of the aggro.  You can't, so leave some for your teammates.  They'll appreciate teaming with you a lot more if they're part of the action than they would if they were there just as an audience.

[Azari]

git gud

[Gobbledigook]

There are plenty of other ATs capable of taking on stragglers. Even squishies don't need to be squishy nowadays.

 

Taunts have caps just like nukes have caps and just like controls have caps etc. Crazy if the caps were removed lol.

Edited May 11 by Gobbledigook

[Doc Spectre]

AoEs have target caps so I don’t really see point of wasting time herding the whole map.
Just steam roll one or two groups at a time. 

Also tanks do decent damage if you build them well. They are not just a punching bag anymore.

[SSR]

Surprised rudra hasn’t been here yet.  >.>

Edited May 11 by SSR

[kryori]

8 hours ago, Ironblade said:

The tank's job is to manage the enemies that can one-shot people or throw an AoE that devastates half the team.

 

Sure, but my complaint isn't that tanks can't do this, it's that many ATs can do this - Brutes, notably, with higher damage and quicker access to their AOEs, but also Scrappers, and even well-IO'd crabs and masterminds, especially if incarnate pools are available.  Maybe this isn't the case in four-star advanced missions, but I no longer see my tanks as a good choice for either taking alpha strikes or dealing with AVs, so I'm looking for a better AT to defuse alpha strikes and keep mobs who can mez or fire AOEs off of squishy teammates.

[Snarky]

37 minutes ago, kryori said:

 

Sure, but my complaint isn't that tanks can't do this, it's that many ATs can do this - Brutes, notably, with higher damage and quicker access to their AOEs, but also Scrappers, and even well-IO'd crabs and masterminds, especially if incarnate pools are available.  Maybe this isn't the case in four-star advanced missions, but I no longer see my tanks as a good choice for either taking alpha strikes or dealing with AVs, so I'm looking for a better AT to defuse alpha strikes and keep mobs who can mez or fire AOEs off of squishy teammates.

and after listening to us argue for 3 pages.  You got any ideas?  Because yes, A Sentinel has the same agro cap as a Tank.  Now tank the AV with it in a MoMLTF....

[kryori]

27 minutes ago, Snarky said:

and after listening to us argue for 3 pages.  You got any ideas?  Because yes, A Sentinel has the same agro cap as a Tank.  Now tank the AV with it in a MoMLTF....

After listening to you argue about fire blasters in a thread about tanking I didn't learn much of value, but I was able to pick up some insight into alternatives that might be more to my liking, yes.

 

Trying an Arsenal/Kinetics controller right now and it's almost what I had hoped for, if only the confuse power which is described as a "stealth" effect didn't alert enemies.  I can almost have the power to both neuter an alpha strike and actually keep my team safe once things get more complex than "dive into pack, hit footstomp".

 

But I keep being misread and don't want folks who have other interesting ideas to have to slog down through your entire petty argument, so I'm summarizing my thoughts for a few of the latecomers.

[Snarky]

11 minutes ago, kryori said:

After listening to you argue about fire blasters in a thread about tanking I didn't learn much of value, but I was able to pick up some insight into alternatives that might be more to my liking, yes.

 

Trying an Arsenal/Kinetics controller right now and it's almost what I had hoped for, if only the confuse power which is described as a "stealth" effect didn't alert enemies.  I can almost have the power to both neuter an alpha strike and actually keep my team safe once things get more complex than "dive into pack, hit footstomp".

 

But I keep being misread and don't want folks who have other interesting ideas to have to slog down through your entire petty argument, so I'm summarizing my thoughts for a few of the latecomers.

Controllers are great.  very powerful.  way less damage than tanks, which... nvm  enjoy

 

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, kryori said:

Sure, but my complaint isn't that tanks can't do this, it's that many ATs can do this - Brutes, notably, with higher damage and quicker access to their AOEs, but also Scrappers, and even well-IO'd crabs and masterminds, especially if incarnate pools are available.

 

None of those other ATs hold aggro so well as a Tanker and none of them, not even Brutes, is likely to survive near so well either. This may not be readily apparent if your team is overpowering content, but once things become nasty, it becomes very clear which AT was meant to hold the position of aggro magnet.

[kryori]

48 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Controllers are great.  very powerful.  way less damage than tanks, which... nvm  enjoy

 

Fulcrum Shift.

[kryori]

48 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

None of those other ATs hold aggro so well as a Tanker and none of them, not even Brutes, is likely to survive near so well either.

 

Brutes have the same resistance and defense caps, don't they?  Both have access to the same taunts, and defenses are easier to shore up with IO sets than offense.  My understanding is that Brutes have higher base damage and Fury where tanks have lower base damage but higher target caps on their abilities - but that higher target cap doesn't help when you're dealing with so many targets that you can't hit them all to keep them off your team. 

[Erratic1]

8 minutes ago, kryori said:

 

Brutes have the same resistance and defense caps, don't they?  Both have access to the same taunts, and defenses are easier to shore up with IO sets than offense.  My understanding is that Brutes have higher base damage and Fury where tanks have lower base damage but higher target caps on their abilities - but that higher target cap doesn't help when you're dealing with so many targets that you can't hit them all to keep them off your team. 

 

Same caps but smaller values from which to work to get there, fewer hps, and different aggro mechanic.

 

Tankers have higher base damage (e.g. Tanker Battle Axe/Beheader deals 52.877 damage compared to 41.707 for Brutes). Tankers scale damage better thereby. But Brutes have Fury and a higher limit on their scaling.

[Sovera]

30 minutes ago, kryori said:

 

Brutes have the same resistance and defense caps, don't they?  Both have access to the same taunts, and defenses are easier to shore up with IO sets than offense.  My understanding is that Brutes have higher base damage and Fury where tanks have lower base damage but higher target caps on their abilities - but that higher target cap doesn't help when you're dealing with so many targets that you can't hit them all to keep them off your team. 

 

If you pug a lot and don't know what the wind will blow to your team then a Tanker wins out. Build it to be self-sufficient and no need to fish for specific buffers or wish that they were available.

 

If playing with SGs or with people who care to build teams 'right' then a Brute can replace the Tanker as buffs fill up the gaps that Brutes cannot reach alone and a Tanker does.

 

 

In terms of damage they are toe-to-toe which has made many Brutes very sad. This is mostly due to a complete abuse of procs and tossing as much as four or even six into all attacks and then rely on a mix of incarnates and a Tanker's innate higher defense to not need to spend as much into shoring said defenses with IOs. Brutes do more damage, but then lose that edge by spending more of their slotting budget shoring their defenses, and even then they will have gaps which buffers need to cover.

 

In practice anything that is actually tough (hardmodes, that's it, even Trials aren't consider hard anymore) the team will not be random warm bodies and those buffers will be present to a point Brutes or Scrappers replace Tankers. Tankers have a huge HP pool which cannot be replicated by IOs or buffs as it is hardcapped and that huge HP pool allows to soak hits and heal back up where a Scrapper cannot (at best there is always a 5% chance of being hit and Scrappers only boast of 75% resists. A Brute has 90% resists but still not the HP of a Tanker).

 

 

Tbh if you're not in hardmodes this worry about playing the very best AT that can save a team is just amusing for the vets reading this thread. Normal non-HM content is easy enough most people just solo it at +4x8 and so much as bringing a second person already doubles the carnage. I stopped teaming because we are at a point where the difficulty is not in surviving or keeping a team alive but finding a target we can actually hit before it has turned into a corpse before we have finished animating the attack.

[kryori]

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

In terms of damage they are toe-to-toe which has made many Brutes very sad. This is mostly due to a complete abuse of procs and tossing as much as four or even six into all attacks and then rely on a mix of incarnates and a Tanker's innate higher defense to not need to spend as much into shoring said defenses with IOs. Brutes do more damage, but then lose that edge by spending more of their slotting budget shoring their defenses, and even then they will have gaps which buffers need to cover.

 

Damn.  If you can build a tank to hit as hard as a brute, someone made some bad balance choices somewhere along the line. 

 

Guess I'll just drop it and play other classes for the time being, because whether they're optimal on paper or not, mine feels bad to play in practice, especially coming from something like FFXIV where a tank controls an encounter and deals substantial damage at the same time.

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

In terms of damage they are toe-to-toe which has made many Brutes very sad. This is mostly due to a complete abuse of procs and tossing as much as four or even six into all attacks and then rely on a mix of incarnates and a Tanker's innate higher defense to not need to spend as much into shoring said defenses with IOs. Brutes do more damage, but then lose that edge by spending more of their slotting budget shoring their defenses, and even then they will have gaps which buffers need to cover.

 

Sound like an argument for an AT based proc adjustment. 

[Doc Spectre]

If you really want to be loved by teams try a Cold Domination defender or corrupter.

[shortguy on indom]

lots of fine points made so far in this thread, so adding do far unmentioned one....

 

imho, tanks are a must for holding one or two group aggro particularly on:

• 'master of'.... task force runs.
• lower-level content, i.e. any content which does not 'incarnate' boost.

actually, a duo of a tank and a defender can tackle quite a bit of other 2 group content too. lol.

 

[Sovera]

6 hours ago, kryori said:

 

Damn.  If you can build a tank to hit as hard as a brute, someone made some bad balance choices somewhere along the line. 

 

Guess I'll just drop it and play other classes for the time being, because whether they're optimal on paper or not, mine feels bad to play in practice, especially coming from something like FFXIV where a tank controls an encounter and deals substantial damage at the same time.

 

Tankers do substantial damage for actual gameplay. While leveling I hit Build-up, use my two PbAoEs and all minions are dead and lieutenants are at half HP. Can other ATs do this? Yes. Can they even do more? Yes. Do they more damage? Also yes. Does this mean Tankers hit like crap and it's a slow whittling of enemies? No.

[Jacktar]

On 5/11/2024 at 3:40 AM, Neiska said:

I am surprised I have not seen any mention of a different answer. For those unaware, pets also have their own aggro tables. So if you are referring to who can actively engage the most enemies at a time, its a Mastermind, or other pet class. I even made an entire post about MM "en masse" style of farming. The TLDR is that each pet can aggro "around" 6 mobs each. This is in addition to the 12 mobs the mastermind themselves can engage. So, 6 pets at 6 enemies each, that's 36 mobs. Plus the 12 for the mastermind, is 48 mobs. In theory. I 3 box Masterminds and farm using this principle. And what actually happens is I engage all the enemies capable of being rendered at the time. And I know this because I see different groups of mobs being rendered on my different MMs. (One MM will see a pack where the other two will not, and they will both see other packs the first will not, and so on.) Essentially, 3 masterminds can fight more mobs than the game can place in front of you at a time. When some die off, more suddenly appear where there were not any before. But hey, self-pulling mobs I consider a pleasant surprise.

 

Now, my damage per mob is nowhere near a brutes, but I engage so much more of the map at once that its still a fast farm. Simply because where the brute is fighting 12, I am fighting 40+. I quite regularly pull nearly the entire moon map at once, save for 3-4 straggler groups. It takes me longer to hunt down stragglers and chip away at running EB's than it does to bulldoze the map. So, even if I am doing only 1/4th of the damage the brute is, I am "still" ahead, when considering the map as a whole.

 

So, you want to fight the most mobs at a time? Try a Mastermind. The question then becomes, how do you and the pets survive it?

 

In answer to the last sentence…….

I dual box a Bots/Time Mm and a Bots/Elec Mm, the second is the lead and the first goes on follow and I have Group Fly on all the time. Both set to aggresive and then we just float above the large outdoors ruined city farm that has only melee powers foes. I then just meander about the map raining death on all below. Loads of aggro herding and no return fire so no survival problems! 

I did not invent this idea just copied it from a better player to whom I offer my thanks.