For the love of boxing and kick

[megaericzero]

45 minutes ago, Drachenfang said:

There are so many power pool powers that never get picked like air superiority, jump kick, and flurry. If they were all good as attacks then that would really open the field for some new and nuanced builds with a lot more individual flavor than we have now.

I would push back on the assertion about Air Superiority, specifically. It is a guaranteed knockdown attempt* on a baseline 4 second cooldown. In the low levels, when you're playing +0/x1 - where mobs are usually only 2 or 3 foes - it is effectively a permanent "sit the [heck] down" power on one of the enemies.

* I say "guaranteed attempt" because it's 100% chance to occur but can still be resisted by mobs, as opposed to other powers that have a chance not to do their CC effect

 

Granted, it's in a set whose main draw (Fly) no longer has a prerequisite cost and whose alternative prereq was already great (Hover).

 

On the whole, I agree Boxing/Kick could do to feel like a better pick while remaining a prereq for Tough (and, by extension, Weave) without having to dip into the synergy. Don't count my boy Air Superiority out, though.

Edited May 18 by megaericzero

[Rudra]

41 minutes ago, Drachenfang said:

Sorry, this is my first foray into the mire. Though if it keeps coming up in discussion then perhaps it is a hot topic that needs some addressing even if it is on the test server to see how some changes would affect the larger game.

If you look through the forums about this topic, you will see a trend. There are examples of requests that in order for Boxing and Kick to be worthwhile picks, they need to be as good as a Scrapper's or Tanker's mid-tier attacks. And that is as a stand alone power. However, pool powers are not meant to replace your primary or secondary abilities, simply augment them, so making these melee attacks as good as mid-tier melee AT attacks  goes against the purpose of pools and their powers. The argument to justify that is that melee ATs already have better melee attacks, so the pool needs to give even better attacks to justify fitting them in. However, those melee ATs also already get their own armors, so Tough and Weave aren't adding anything they are missing, they are improving something they already have. So at least to me, picking up Boxing or Kick even on a melee AT makes sense because you are choosing to further bolster your strengths. And if those players refuse to take more than just 1 attack from the Fighting set, after the set has already been buffed, that is entirely their choice. However, from my experience, just looking at the numbers, if you take Boxing, Kick, and Cross Punch, they become better than the T1 or T2 attacks melee ATs get.

[Frozen Burn]

5 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

I would push back on the assertion about Air Superiority, specifically. It is a guaranteed knockdown attempt* on a baseline 4 second cooldown. In the low levels, when you're playing +0/x1 - where mobs are usually only 2 or 3 foes - it is effectively a permanent "sit the [heck] down" power on one of the enemies.

* I say "guaranteed attempt" because it's 100% chance to occur but can still be resisted by mobs, as opposed to other powers that have a chance not to do their CC effect

 

Granted, it's in a set whose main draw (Fly) no longer has a prerequisite cost and whose alternative prereq was already great (Hover).

 

....Don't count my boy Air Superiority out, though.

 

I agree - Air Sup is a great power and under-utilized.  I am surprised most hover-blasters don't take it - if you don't like being on the ground and want to be away from the mobs, Air Sup is a perfect way to get those pesky flyers off you.  

[tatmia]

18 hours ago, Frozen Burn said:

 

I agree - Air Sup is a great power and under-utilized.  I am surprised most hover-blasters don't take it - if you don't like being on the ground and want to be away from the mobs, Air Sup is a perfect way to get those pesky flyers off you.  

It’s always been a favorite for my flying controllers.  Plus, the animation while hovering is hilarious.   I love it so much that when I commissioned art work for Tatmia - I asked that she was painted using it on Jack in Irons

Edited May 19 by tatmia
Incorrect name for Jack

[tidge]

I also really like the animation of Air Superiority!

 

In terms of K00L PWRS being kept behind gates... I definitely feel like Tough/Weave in the Fighting pool are far from the worst. Imagine the griping if Hasten required a pre-requisite power pick! I've long complained about how the first three power choices of the Presence pool offer almost no practical synergy, and I've come to view Flight as an outlier because how 4 of 5 powers are toggles that (almost entirely) affect only the user... and one of those toggles is a "makes the other powers work better", similar to Medicine.

 

I'm accustomed to the configuration of the power pools (especially with the HC tweaks) but even so I'd rank Presence, Medicine, Flight and Speed ahead of Fighting in terms of "pools to look at". 

 

All Presence need IMO is the ability to take Intimidate (single-target Fear) without either Pacify or Provoke at level 4, drop the pre-requisite for Invoke Panic to a single other pool power and raise the min level of Unrelenting to 20. I think this would make it more like the Origin pools.

 

Medicine and Flight should probably have Field Medic/Evasive Maneuvers reworked into either auto powers or better yet worked into the other pool powers' effects and replaced with something else, possibly enemy facing.

 

Speed doesn't get much thought from me, but I can't say I recall ever seeing people recommend Burnout or Whirlwind... maybe one of those from the days of Live.

[Haijinx]

5 hours ago, Herotu said:

Perhaps Tough and Weave should be made into Epic Powers for non-melee classes, instead of pool powers for everybody.

 

You would be severely reducing Scrappers, Stalkers and Brute potential durability.

[Herotu]

5 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

You would be severely reducing Scrappers, Stalkers and Brute potential durability.

Making them vulnerable, like they used to be before IOs... well, nothing like THAT weak, ofc.

[kelika2]

mystic flight and afterburner

[PeregrineFalcon]

[OverkillEngine]

3 hours ago, megaericzero said:

I would push back on the assertion about Air Superiority, specifically. It is a guaranteed knockdown attempt* on a baseline 4 second cooldown. In the low levels, when you're playing +0/x1 - where mobs are usually only 2 or 3 foes - it is effectively a permanent "sit the [heck] down" power on one of the enemies.

* I say "guaranteed attempt" because it's 100% chance to occur but can still be resisted by mobs, as opposed to other powers that have a chance not to do their CC effect

 

Granted, it's in a set whose main draw (Fly) no longer has a prerequisite cost and whose alternative prereq was already great (Hover).

 

On the whole, I agree Boxing/Kick could do to feel like a better pick while remaining a prereq for Tough (and, by extension, Weave) without having to dip into the synergy. Don't count my boy Air Superiority out, though.

 

 

Yeah I have deliberately picked Air Superiority on a melee AT before because I actually wanted it - its design made it actually useful from the word go for the situation I was picking it in. And this was post pre-req relaxation. So I wasn't forced into it specifically to get powers in the pool I wanted later. I didn't have to pick other powers to make it a still grossly sub-par choice. It stood on its own merits as a valid pick. It had an alternative power that did not have the same exact niche if I didn't need or want a melee attack. I consider it an example of how to set up the "prerequisite" powers in a  pool correctly.
 

  

3 hours ago, Frozen Burn said:

 

I agree - Air Sup is a great power and under-utilized.  I am surprised most hover-blasters don't take it - if you don't like being on the ground and want to be away from the mobs, Air Sup is a perfect way to get those pesky flyers off you.  

A lot of them already have access to powers within their own sets that already satisfy that utility more flexibly or obviate it entirely by making the mob dead. They have little reason to burn a power pick on Air Sup.

Edited May 19 by OverkillEngine

[Frozen Burn]

24 minutes ago, OverkillEngine said:

A lot of them already have access to powers within their own sets that already satisfy that utility more flexibly or obviate it entirely by making the mob dead. They have little reason to burn a power pick on Air Sup.

 

Some yes, and some no.  A lot of the T1 immobs have a -fly component.  Some do not.  But having two -fly powers can be handy to quickly get a swarm of flyers off you.  This can be preferable over trying to outright kill them over several attacks while taking lots of damage melee damage - again, this is for someone who is hover blasting and typically doesn't like to have mobs in melee range of themselves, even if they are in the air.  

 

I'm not saying it's a requirement.  But it is also useful to some in certain cases - and many over look that usefulness.  And as you stated above, it's even useful on melee players as well.  

 

But this is all not on topic for the tread and should be debated elsewhere.

[kelika2]

actually lets pool the pool powers.

one big selection and you can have your old fashioned tiers coupled with new ideas.

like if i have combat jumping and super jump thats enough to select Weave as a standalone

[Biff Pow]

4 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I think the best solution to the Tough/Weave issue that keeps coming up is to make Boxing and Kick worth taking.

 

Boxing and Kick should do more damage for non-Melee ATs. They shouldn't be better than Melee set attacks.

[Biff Pow]

4 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

 

 

 

Edited May 19 by Biff Pow
oops

[Saiyajinzoningen]

I too love air superiority and one of its most attractive qualities is the guaranteed KD

perhaps if the other power pool powers also had a guaranteed secondary effect they'd be more attractive

 

for example:

Flurry (100% chance to disorient target mag 2)

Punch (100% chance to sleep target mag 2)

Kick (100% chance to make target vomit mag 2)

[KC4800]

11 minutes ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

Kick (100% chance to make target vomit mag 2)

Kick to the belly causes projectile vomit 100% of the time? While hilarious, seems kinda silly. COV City of Villains or City of Vomit, take your pick.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

2 hours ago, KC4800 said:

Kick to the belly causes projectile vomit 100% of the time? While hilarious, seems kinda silly. COV City of Villains or City of Vomit, take your pick.

 

its only mag 2 which means it works best on minions.

You'd be surprised what I've seen folks do to minions.

also lots of thematic stuff in the game is silly like:

I can summon vine tentacles or throw clouds of bees and nobody bats an eyelash

but summon a little tornado and suddenly its time to get the hell out of dodge 🤣

[Sancerre]

16 hours ago, Rudra said:

If you look through the forums about this topic, you will see a trend. There are examples of requests that in order for Boxing and Kick to be worthwhile picks, they need to be as good as a Scrapper's or Tanker's mid-tier attacks. And that is as a stand alone power. However, pool powers are not meant to replace your primary or secondary abilities, simply augment them, so making these melee attacks as good as mid-tier melee AT attacks  goes against the purpose of pools and their powers. The argument to justify that is that melee ATs already have better melee attacks, so the pool needs to give even better attacks to justify fitting them in. However, those melee ATs also already get their own armors, so Tough and Weave aren't adding anything they are missing, they are improving something they already have. So at least to me, picking up Boxing or Kick even on a melee AT makes sense because you are choosing to further bolster your strengths. And if those players refuse to take more than just 1 attack from the Fighting set, after the set has already been buffed, that is entirely their choice. However, from my experience, just looking at the numbers, if you take Boxing, Kick, and Cross Punch, they become better than the T1 or T2 attacks melee ATs get.

 

a perception to fix is that low tier powers are worse than high tier powers.  in dark melee, smite is a T2 attack that outclasses every other button including the T9 midnight grasp (for damage).  The ask is not that boxing/kick should be a mid-tier AT attack, but rather it should closer to a solid T1/T2 attack performance (boxing is not quite there, and kick is absolute trash currently).  The other part of this is questioning why kick exists, adjacent to the superior boxing -- boxing/kick are largely viewed as gatekeepers (blocking access to tough/weave) but other than fulfilling a requirement for the fighting pool to literally have (2) tier 1 powers, what is the purpose of Kick?

 

i think the synergy system in the fighting pool is a joke.  brawl is never going to be anything but a meme.  even fully synergized, boxing and kick are not good.  cross punch is only relevant because it allows access to force feedback recharge procs that builds otherwise might not be able to include... and supposing you do grab cross punch, you dont really care about the double synergy anyways (mathematically, you shouldnt).

 

all that said -- i would not advocate for any change here.  i think there are creative directions that could possibly be taken here but the fighting power pool is currently desirable overall... and that is more than can be said compared to other power pools.

[tidge]

15 minutes ago, Sancerre said:

 

 what is the purpose of Kick?

 

i think the synergy system in the fighting pool is a joke.

 

Kick is an attack that can be made while the character's hands are holding something else, like a weapon or a shield.

 

I disagree about the "joke" of fighting... self-buffing of other powers is slightly different than synergy IMO (even though that is what it is called!). The fighting buffs certainly aren't OP, but very few other power pools offer anything like self-buffing among pool powers. The only other ones I can think of, and these are reaches IMO, are:

• Flight, if you take an additional toggle Evasive Maneuvers.
• Medicine, if you take an additional click Field Medic.
• Presence, if you take both attacks Intimidate and Invoke Panic, you can try to stack a higher magnitude Fear effect on a single target. This is more like synergy, but most of this pool's powers are practically anti-synergistic with each other.

I've lost track of what, if anything, stacks in Concealment. My apologies if my thinking is incomplete. I don't really consider stacking from Vengeance with a Leadership toggle as the same type of direct buffing of other powers in the same pool, even if it is obviously "synergistic".

 

 

[Sancerre]

17 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

Kick is an attack that can be made while the character's hands are holding something else, like a weapon or a shield.

 

I disagree about the "joke" of fighting... self-buffing of other powers is slightly different than synergy IMO (even though that is what it is called!). The fighting buffs certainly aren't OP, but very few other power pools offer anything like self-buffing among pool powers. The only other ones I can think of, and these are reaches IMO, are:

• Flight, if you take an additional toggle Evasive Maneuvers.
• Medicine, if you take an additional click Field Medic.
• Presence, if you take both attacks Intimidate and Invoke Panic, you can try to stack a higher magnitude Fear effect on a single target. This is more like synergy, but most of this pool's powers are practically anti-synergistic with each other.

I've lost track of what, if anything, stacks in Concealment. My apologies if my thinking is incomplete. I don't really consider stacking from Vengeance with a Leadership toggle as the same type of direct buffing of other powers in the same pool, even if it is obviously "synergistic".

 

 

 

regarding kick -- i thought all of these animation redraws were cleaned up and no longer matter (years ago at this point).  i dont actively use boxing/kick to know because they are terrible but i wasnt aware this is even a consideration aside from a thematic style choice of wanting to literally kick someone at the cost of using one of the worst DPA attacks in the game.  i will note that kick is technically better than boxing as a synergy buff to cross punch, presuming you never plan to actually kick anything.

 

regarding synergies or self buffs (or whatever semantics) -- they can be fun when designed well.  it is fun to look at powers interacting with each other in a meaningful way and build around that.  the joke is that these barely matter and the bigger problem is that even when fully collaborated, they dont even bring the powers up to an acceptable baseline.

[Infinitum]

I think a lot of the problems with boxing and kick are how ugly and underwhelming the animations are. 

 

If boxing had the animation of either initial strike or heavy blow from street justice - it would be feel little less boring. 

 

Kick - should be something like crane kick from MA or storm kick from martial combat. 

 

As is neither look impressive enough to fill an attack chain. 

Edited May 19 by Infinitum

[tidge]

Not all pool powers are going to be for everyone, but if they are literally never taken... yeah I can see why only the negatives will be considered. I still believe that the reason the Fighting pool gets this specific set of complaints (about Kick / Boxing) is because folks want Tough and/or Weave. I see almost no suggestions to improve Flurry (from Speed) even though it is a pretty mediocre melee attack... and I certainly see builds leveraging the Speed pool. I get it... Tough is behind a gate and Hasten is not, so the ask is to make the gate easier to open or worth more to open. I just don't believe the argument is mostly about "let's improve these specific powers."

 

I admit, I rarely do go deep into the Fighting pool, but I have done so and not been terribly disappointed. One example: I have a War Mace/Invulnerability Scrapper that was going to leverage Tough and Weave for the sorts of reasons Invulnerability characters do... and War Mace

• is a rather slow attack set (before Global recharge bonuses), so gaps in attack chains
• gets its AoE rather late in the game (now at 18 and 26, they used to be much later!)

Obviously a War Mace character doesn't need extra single-target attacks, but getting an extra melee cone early (no waiting for Epic/Patron pools *1) is a nice-to-have. Ultimately it isn't as if the Invulnerable set needs either Tough or Weave at early levels, so those powers could be delayed and dropped in when convenient.

 

Is this the M0ST L33T SCRAPPER ever... probably not, but for a player that doesn't try to minimize the number of attacks in a chain, it worked out pretty well for me.

 

*1 This is, just like, my opinion: when I have a character and think "What this build needs is an(other) AoE" I try to find ways to get such a thing into the build:

• earlier than Epic/Patron powers can be taken, via a power pool
• from a power pool that offers other powers I want and/or can leverage

I completely get that other players look at the Epic/Patron pools like this, occasionally I do as well. I enjoy a lot of content below those levels, and I kinda like having the character feel like itself earlier rather than later.

 

Edited May 19 by tidge
splleing

[tatmia]

16 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

For full transparency- the character I’m currently playing who uses Air Superiority is on another server where the damage was boosted

[OverkillEngine]

3 hours ago, tidge said:

Not all pool powers are going to be for everyone, but if they are literally never taken... yeah I can see why only the negatives will be considered. I still believe that the reason the Fighting pool gets this specific set of complaints (about Kick / Boxing) is because folks want Tough and/or Weave. I see almost no suggestions to improve Flurry (from Speed) even though it is a pretty mediocre melee attack... and I certainly see builds leveraging the Speed pool. I get it... Tough is behind a gate and Hasten is not, so the ask is to make the gate easier to open or worth more to open. I just don't believe the argument is mostly about "let's improve these specific powers."

 

I mean, just compare the entry tax powers of the travel Pools to Fighting (and people are going to have to be adults and deal with them getting compared given they use the same opportunity cost mechanics - power selection slots):

Speed:
A) melee cone attack with limited utility
B) Self Buff that is almost universally applicable to all builds
C) Travel power!

Flight:
A) Melee attack with incredible utility thanks to two guaranteed secondary effects
B) Self flight toggle that also has great utility on a wide range of builds thanks to the perfect air control and cheap cost

C) Travel power!

 

Fighting:
A) Melee attack with unreliable utility, can be improved to still be unreliable
B) Melee attack with unreliable utility, can be improved to still be unreliable

(Note how I didn't even have to bring up their damage at all to show how off kilter the fighting pool attacks are. But since they are not allowed to compete via damage, what's left is competing via utility.)

So if there is something later on in these pools that one wants, two of them allow you to bypass selections that may not fit one's build, but with fighting, if you don't want or need a crappy melee attack, you have no choice but to waste a power slot on one. That's just grossly offensive design that should have been dumpstered decades ago.

 

 

Edited May 19 by OverkillEngine

[Rudra]

9 minutes ago, OverkillEngine said:

 

I mean, just compare the entry tax powers of the travel Pools to Fighting (and people are going to have to be adults and deal with them getting compared given they use the same opportunity cost mechanics - power selection slots):

Speed:
A) melee cone attack with limited utility
B) Self Buff that is almost universally applicable to all builds
C) Travel power!

Flight:
A) Melee attack with incredible utility thanks to two guaranteed secondary effects
B) Self flight toggle that also has great utility on a wide range of builds thanks to the perfect air control and cheap cost

C) Travel power!

 

Fighting:
A) Melee attack with unreliable utility, can be improved to still be unreliable
B) Melee attack with unreliable utility, can be improved to still be unreliable

(Note how I didn't even have to bring up their damage at all to show how off kilter the fighting pool attacks are. But since they are not allowed to compete via damage, what's left is competing via utility.)

So if there is something later on in these pools that one wants, two of them allow you to bypass selections that may not fit one's build, but with fighting, if you don't want or need a crappy melee attack, you have no choice but to waste a power slot on one. That's just grossly offensive design that should have been dumpstered decades ago.

 

 

The travel pools have always been a bit different from the other pools. More so after their actual travel power had its prerequisite unlocks removed. So I have to disagree with the comparison. The only thing that makes them comparable is that most travel pools include an attack power.

 

Edited May 19 by Rudra
Edited to correct "pols" to "pools".