"No Transformation" option for HEATs

[Ghost]

I am curious.

How would this non transforming PB or WS play?

 

Which powers would you get access to? All of them at all times?

 

[Ghost]

36 minutes ago, Indystruck said:

 

It's alright, man. No amount of testing will ever convince "I don't believe you. I got carried on a +0/x4 Warriors map and it feels fine to me" types. Best to just not worry about those people.

It’s almost as if a certain percentage of players choose and play ATs based on how fun they are.  They don’t care about the trivial things.

 

While others find fun in getting every last bit of damage out of an AT

 

Neither way is wrong.  I just wish the two groups would quit trying to “convince” or tell each other they are playing wrong.  FFS just play the game.

 

Edited June 15 by Ghost

[Laucianna]

One of the big asks from me personally coming to the rework is a "Minimal FX" option, not a zero FX and I do feel like I found a great way to do that so people who like their costume can still enjoy it whilst getting full use out of the forms, I am still writing it up at the moment however and don't want to post it early as like @Shin Magmus mentioned the last time I made a post without it being 100% complete the same small missed data point kept reappearing in the comments despite it being answered there and the thread got locked 😞

However to clear up sort efficiency numbers where I have done completed builds on the live servers with multiple tests to see how far it can be pushed:

Human:

Sustained DPS - 324

Changeling:
Sustained DPS - 767

Those tests were both done without using not 100% active buffs (So no active hybrid, destiny, summons etc) as otherwise Changeling comes out miles ahead as you can easily destroy a pylon within the time frame of hybrid being up 24/7 which sky rockets it even more. So although Shin isn't 100% right, you are fighting at less then half the DPS of a Changeling, and that is with Changeling not being the best DPS in the first place so you are doing less then half the DPS of a sub par DPS AT. And with procs in the forms of changeling you are getting healed and a bit of end every other time you shift form so that helps keep you alive, also allowing you to use taunt and (For Peacebringers) their dwarf aoe attack to taunt.

But saying all that, and I may get a bit of hate for this, but play how you want ❤️ If you want to play a human only that is fine and 100% okay, but it does mean others are allowed to not bring them along to end game content (Which most players don't even do so no loss 😂) I understand the desire of the original post and I do think there is a middle ground that can be reached ❤️

[Indystruck]

28 minutes ago, Ghost said:

It’s almost as if a certain percentage of players choose and play ATs based on how fun they are.  They don’t care about the trivial things.

 

While others find fun in getting every last bit of damage out of an AT

 

Neither way is wrong.  I just wish the two groups would quit trying to “convince” or tell each other they are playing wrong.  FFS just play the game.

 

 

This doesn't have anything to do with what I said.

 

Also, you're here too, man.

 

Go play the game, I guess?

[tidge]

When *I* think about which powers I'd have as a human-looking squid or lobster, I am imagining that I'd basically be playing some other sort of AT, except of course I'd be able to have an awesome survival mode as well as a blasty-mode.

 

As a teammate, and player, of Kheldians... I think it is somewhat important for the team to know which form(s) are being used. I know that I have asked Kheldians to switch/stay in Dwarf form when a team needed aggro management.

[SeraphimKensai]

On one hand the powers are available in the human version of PBs or WSs to enable someone to have those powers without taking the forms. On the other hand, power customization to allow you to take the forms gaining access to those powers saves you power picks, gives you the benefit of increased damage scale in Nova and, gives you access to mez protection/taunting in dwarf, while being able to see your costume.

 

As the proposed change ultimately is cosmetic in nature and optional via power customization choices, I have no problem supporting the request.

 

That said, Kheldians in general are long overdue an overhaul as those of us that play them frequently enough have requested over the years.

 

+1.

 

P.S. the cosmetic change requested by the OP would also reduce visual particle artifacts and glare from changeling builds and help people, especially team member's rendering with lower spec machines.

Edited June 15 by SeraphimKensai

[Shin Magmus]

2 hours ago, Seed22 said:

There’s a dichotomy within the CoH community. The discord, home of numbers, logic, and imo the best players in CoH or “experts” on a certain AT or playstyle, in this case Lauci, Wispur, and Doom who are the only kheld players I trust in the game. 
 

I mean I don't disagree or necessarily "trust" other Kheld players in-game, but I still let them be slugging along sluggishly on the team because most of the time I'm playing something else, not 4* advanced mode content.

[Ghost]

29 minutes ago, Indystruck said:

 

This doesn't have anything to do with what I said.

 

Also, you're here too, man.

 

Go play the game, I guess?

Well, guess I misunderstood your post.  The same way you misunderstood mine.

[Seed22]

2 hours ago, Ghost said:

A cosmetic option that takes away the “cost” of picking the power.  Okay.  Sure.  Sounds great.

 

 

 

 

But…but its a cosmetic…eh nevermind.

 

back on topic, I didn’t see anyone earlier mention getting rid of kheld shapeshifting, just making human form you know, not a monkey shit pick.

Edited June 15 by Seed22

[Indystruck]

44 minutes ago, Laucianna said:

One of the big asks from me personally coming to the rework is a "Minimal FX" option, not a zero FX and I do feel like I found a great way to do that so people who like their costume can still enjoy it whilst getting full use out of the forms, I am still writing it up at the moment however and don't want to post it early as like @Shin Magmus mentioned the last time I made a post without it being 100% complete the same small missed data point kept reappearing in the comments despite it being answered there and the thread got locked 😞

 

Am curious about the distinction you mean between Minimal/No, you mean one that still has the visible transformations but without the wispy energy effects and slight transparency that the forms have?

 

45 minutes ago, Laucianna said:

However to clear up sort efficiency numbers where I have done completed builds on the live servers with multiple tests to see how far it can be pushed:

Human:

Sustained DPS - 324

Changeling:
Sustained DPS - 767

Those tests were both done without using not 100% active buffs (So no active hybrid, destiny, summons etc) as otherwise Changeling comes out miles ahead as you can easily destroy a pylon within the time frame of hybrid being up 24/7 which sky rockets it even more. So although Shin isn't 100% right, you are fighting at less then half the DPS of a Changeling, and that is with Changeling not being the best DPS in the first place so you are doing less then half the DPS of a sub par DPS AT.
 

 

And to be clear, no active buffs, but were the human and changeling builds procced out? Which I imagine would widen the gulf further, or was it one of those "1 proc per attack" tests?

 

 

2 minutes ago, Ghost said:

Well, guess I misunderstood your post.  The same way you misunderstood mine.

 

Okay, I don't see how this is relevant still, as the post you're quoting wasn't interacting with you, so, go be mad about it I guess?

[Laucianna]

11 minutes ago, Indystruck said:

Am curious about the distinction you mean between Minimal/No, you mean one that still has the visible transformations but without the wispy energy effects and slight transparency that the forms have?

 

So similar to the way the hero Vixen does from DC, where it shows the form (With a slight transparency) over your player when you switch into the form and then either vanishes leaving you as human only or with it constantly as a transparent form on top of yours (I still want to poll what people will prefer on the post I make). This is something I have checked with Devs and is possible but not as a minor thing so could be something in the rework 🙂
 

 

 

15 minutes ago, Indystruck said:

And to be clear, no active buffs, but were the human and changeling builds procced out? Which I imagine would widen the gulf further, or was it one of those "1 proc per attack" tests?

 

Both builds can be seen on my guide alongside the damage numbers beside them ❤️ Both have some attacks procced out, others not depending on what is needed to make it a build that can be used in content outside of just Pylon DPS checks 😄
 

[Vic Raiden]

Wow... Just wow. All I did was make a simple cosmetic suggestion, and now look what it spiralled out into.

[Indystruck]

49 minutes ago, Laucianna said:

So similar to the way the hero Vixen does from DC, where it shows the form (With a slight transparency) over your player when you switch into the form and then either vanishes leaving you as human only or with it constantly as a transparent form on top of yours (I still want to poll what people will prefer on the post I make). This is something I have checked with Devs and is possible but not as a minor thing so could be something in the rework 🙂

 

Oh, alright, I see. That sort of reminds of that one Taskmaster page that everyone loved, with the after images of everyone he was copying. While not necessarily strictly shapeshifting, I could see it opening another avenue of character concepts, so that'd be neat.

[Laucianna]

5 minutes ago, Indystruck said:

 

Oh, alright, I see. That sort of reminds of that one Taskmaster page that everyone loved, with the after images of everyone he was copying. While not necessarily strictly shapeshifting, I could see it opening another avenue of character concepts, so that'd be neat.

Yeah it isn't fully shapeshifting but it's a possible solution to what @Vic Raiden is suggesting ❤️ 

[ScarySai]

Listen, if this is what it takes for human only khelds to stop gimping their characters, I'm for it.

 

It's like playing a druid that doesn't shapeshift, but for some reason caught on.

 

Edited June 15 by ScarySai
Typo

[Mayaedits]

28 minutes ago, Vic Raiden said:

Wow... Just wow. All I did was make a simple cosmetic suggestion, and now look what it spiralled out into.

[Oubliette_Red]

54 minutes ago, Vic Raiden said:

Wow... Just wow. All I did was make a simple cosmetic suggestion, and now look what it spiralled out into.

 

It appears to me that some folks assumed that you wanted all the powers in human form, although I got from your post that you were asking for Squid- and Drawf-form powers mode but remain human looking. The cosmetic appearance of the character (remaining human) would have no effect on how the powers function, correct?

[JasperStone]

4 hours ago, Seed22 said:

I’m going to be nice and just ask, since these comments don’t exist, where are you getting this assessment from? Especially in this thread?

Sure.

I remember those discussions.

Like:

or

or maybe

... no sure of invisible jetpack counts

...oh this is another shield one 

 

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

1 hour ago, Vic Raiden said:

Wow... Just wow. All I did was make a simple cosmetic suggestion, and now look what it spiralled out into.

 

Yeah.  I apologize on behalf of the forums.  But suggestions and feedback section tends to quickly break down into camps promoting or critiquing the suggestion, which is fine, and breaks down to the camps critiquing each other, which is not fine.  So guys, please, stop doing that.

 

As to the idea itself, my only concern would be making something as sturdy as a Dwarf with the ranged damage of the Nova, all without the other forms' weaknesses.  I like Laucianna's "Vixen" concept.  I was trying to think of something similar but couldn't find the right words or image.  The closest I got was Armor from X-men as a parallel for Dwarf. 

 

 

Edited June 15 by GM_GooglyMoogly

[ScarySai]

1 hour ago, Laucianna said:

Yeah it isn't fully shapeshifting but it's a possible solution to what @Vic Raiden is suggesting ❤️ 

 

I've had this idea for awhile, and here I thought I was original for copying Jojo.

[arcane]

1 hour ago, Vic Raiden said:

Wow... Just wow. All I did was make a simple cosmetic suggestion, and now look what it spiralled out into.

There are certain folks on this forum that you’re not allowed to disagree with, and you woke them up.

[Rudra]

Well, I don't have a stake in this debate, so my comments don't really matter. However, these are my thoughts:

 

1) If the data is available and human form only Kheldians are only 1/2 as good as other Kheldians, per @Laucianna's tests if the data can be provided, and that is not a strictly damage comparison which will always favor Nova form to the best of my knowledge, then maybe the baseline powers need another look. (To me at least, the human form should be somewhere in the middle of the Nova form and the Dwarf form for capability, but that is just me.)

 

2) I think the Nova and Dwarf forms should keep their transformations. It is part of their lore.

 

3) I think a new EAT that works along the lines of the shown Vixen clips would be a novel extrapolation of the Kheldian idea. Though I think the 'transformation' for such an EAT should maintain the transformation's form as an outline, ghost image, or other maintained effect to show it is in use.

 

Again, I don't play Kheldians, so I have no stake in this debate, those are just my thoughts on the matter.

[arcane]

42 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Well, I don't have a stake in this debate, so my comments don't really matter. However, these are my thoughts:

 

1) If the data is available and human form only Kheldians are only 1/2 as good as other Kheldians, per @Laucianna's tests if the data can be provided, and that is not a strictly damage comparison which will always favor Nova form to the best of my knowledge, then maybe the baseline powers need another look. (To me at least, the human form should be somewhere in the middle of the Nova form and the Dwarf form for capability, but that is just me.)

 

2) I think the Nova and Dwarf forms should keep their transformations. It is part of their lore.

 

3) I think a new EAT that works along the lines of the shown Vixen clips would be a novel extrapolation of the Kheldian idea. Though I think the 'transformation' for such an EAT should maintain the transformation's form as an outline, ghost image, or other maintained effect to show it is in use.

 

Again, I don't play Kheldians, so I have no stake in this debate, those are just my thoughts on the matter.

You have to factor in the fact that one of Lauci’s data points is reliant on abusing a cheesy exploit/glitch that is way overdue for fixing. Comparing a human form to a changeling macro abuser is not the same as comparing a human form to a tri-form.

 

In a balanced world where obscene bugs are actually taken care of by non-negligent developers, no Kheldian should ever approach 700+ DPS given they nearly have Tanker-level mitigation.

 

EDIT: Oh hey @PeregrineFalcon I disagree with the devs on something. Them leaving the changeling glitch in the game for this long amounts to malpractice. Thought you ought to witness this.

Edited June 15 by arcane

[Rudra]

3 minutes ago, arcane said:

You have to factor in the fact that one of Lauci’s data points is reliant on abusing a cheesy exploit/glitch that is way overdue for fixing.

Then 1st step is fixing that.

[megaericzero]

1 hour ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

The closest I got was Armor from X-men as a parallel for Dwarf. 

That's who first came to mind when I read the OP.

 

My second thought was some form of minimal visual tell - the Dwarf fists as gloves and the Nova tentacle-shoulders as pauldrons - along with the tendril outline and tell-tale flame eyes that come with using PB/WS powers.

 

I also like ScarySai's suggestion about Jojo; presumably with the form floating behind and slightly higher than the character model, with both the human and kheldian models performing animations during attacks.