yOu ShOuLD cHaNGe kNoCkBAck to KnoCKdoWN!

[Forager]

2 hours ago, ZemX said:

If this thread is good for anything it's a demonstration of why you shouldn't even bother engaging people about it in game.  If we can't agree here, we won't agree there.  Don't even bother.  

 

Yeah I'm coming to the conclusion that the forum population is more representative of the playerbase than I realized. I thought this was just going to be all the cool kids... but my estimation seems off.

 

At the very least, I have heard several interesting points throughout this thread.

 

-The disadvantages inherent in other secondary effects was a very useful point.

-The fact that even if you try to position yourself, enemies left behind are the scatter... that was something I never thought about.

-Players not really noticing what other players are doing unless it bothers them is huge and worth its own thread.

[Ukase]

7 hours ago, Videra said:

This is a thread that definitely needed to exist.

Please just slot KB->KD, the effect on KB is incredibly disruptive and actively makes the game harder for your team. That is all.

If you team often, the case can be made that the set bonuses you lose for slapping this IO in a given power can be made up with team buffs/debuffs. 
But if you just team every so often, I'm not sure it's worth it. At least, not in every case. But isn't that why we can solo? 

I like the overwhelming force damage/kb->kd. I use it often. 
But the other one? The set itself isn't horrible, but it's usually not what I'm looking for. While I don't actively seek to annoy my teammates (aside from bad jokes - those are quite deliberate), they usually aren't people I team with for more than a mission or three. Maybe a TF. But even so, if I can deal with the folks who Fold Space mobs away from me, then they can deal with KB. 

Again, if I have a character with KB, I generally know when/where to use it so it creates less work, instead of more work. (and I also sometimes avoid KB powersets to avoid these types of discussions. 
But, I am not someone to tell someone else to slot a given IO, even it makes great sense to me. I'll think it, of course. I might even buy it for them and gift it, if I don't think it would be an insult. 
But the truth of it is simply, as rude as it is - your fun IS more important to you than my fun.  If you tell me anything else, I think you're being disingenuous. And my fun is more important to me. And that's perfectly okay. We're human, most of us. It's only natural that we look out for ourselves. Part of the beauty of this game is that so many of us with different ways of thinking and living can find a common goal and pursue it. 

It won't always be pretty. Some of you love a good team wipe. I hate turning on toggles. I wish they all worked like Temperature Protection - always on. 

I do think the onus of using powers properly is on the person with the power. If you have KB, then you should be proactive in using them so as to not cause your teammates to swear at you. (either to themselves or in-game) 
If you can determine the proper angles - great, kb away. If not - then maybe one of the IOs suggest could be the right move. 

If not, then I dunno what to tell you. I'll team with you, if we have the same goal. I can adapt. It might annoy me, but I can handle it for a tf, sure. 

[Ukase]

8 hours ago, Shin Magmus said:

 The fundamental issue central to every KB spammers "arguments" about fun, is that they implicitly state that their fun is more important than anyone else's.  That's literally what those statements imply: "my fun is MORE important than the fun of 7 other people on the team."  It's very rude to think that way, while being actively detrimental to everyone around you.  It's also solid justification for anyone to kick you.  

I am rude. Just ask anyone. I do try to be polite, but my default is rude. Nothing personal, I am just too obtuse to realize it most of the time. Or I'm too self-absorbed to pay full attention. Either way, I mean nothing sinister. 

But - the thing is - your fun is more important to you than it is to me. And the reverse is also true. I already wrote way too much on what's basically a "Why can't we all get along?" type thread. 
Now, if my fun is actually more important to you, or even on the same level of importance, then why have you not carried me through a 4*lgtf so I can have that useless ego sword trophy? I mean, it wouldn't actually be that much fun for me...because the rewards aren't that great...but still. It's about me, right? Did I mention I want it on my MM that I haven't played since it dinged 50? 

Yeah, that's really silly. Forget I said anything. 

[lemming]

13 minutes ago, Forager said:

Yeah I'm coming to the conclusion that the forum population is more representative of the playerbase than I realized. I thought this was just going to be all the cool kids... but my estimation seems off.

Yea, no.   None of us are cool.   Or all of us are cool.  Something something perceptions.

 

Anyway, you can learn a lot from the forums, though I'm usually going back to check via the beta server to make sure.  (And even then, subject to change)

[JasperStone]

Energy Blast is not a troll set no matter what anyone says.

 

I have an Energy/Energy 50.

Only two powers keep their KB, and they are single target powers.

 

One team leader sent  a tell when I joined:

Leader: "Do you have your KB handled?"

I responded in Broadcast, General, and LFG with:

"Hey [insert team leader name here] I handle my knockback the way I handle your mom .... [the rest is redacted cause I don't want to get banned here ]

Lotsa laughter in the channel and I left the team.

 

It was not the first time I had that question about that character or my PB. Any future questions will get a vitriolic but humorous response.

 

This topic has been debated beyond ad nausea.

 

I would love another set or two that could edit KB. A KU one would be nice.

[Paradox Fate]

32 minutes ago, tidge said:

There are many satisfying moments to be had in the City of Heroes. One of them I never tire often of occurs on a Penny Yin TF when my Energy/Martial can Burst of Speed next to the Super Stunner (engaged in melee with something like a Scrapper or MM henchmen), execute a Ki Push and follow up with a Sniper Blast to deny the Freakshow Resurrection.

 

But that would be less XP since you can defeat them again!

 

Shame on you!

[Seed22]

7 hours ago, Ghost said:

Just wondering aloud……

 

I wonder how many of these “boot em” advocates, have used a phrase similar to “let people play how they want” in other threads…..

 

 

I know of at least one

I am both. What about it? 
 

I shouldn’t need to explain, but this is the CoH forums so it is what it is, why letting people play the way they want DOES NOT MEAN letting people put their fun above others.

 

Do I, Ghost? Or would you like an in depth explanation 🙂

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

57 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Wait, so you're saying that the moderators on this forum are biased? Wow. That explains so much. Thanks for the heads up! 😃

 

You misspelled "BASED."  😉

 

Anyway, knockback is one of those topics that people feel strongly about.  On my player account, I will sometimes slot -KB on knockback attacks, but not always.  Shin would kick me so fast from his team because I use meteor and I don't slot it with -KB.  Going back to the OP, when I get chastised for using KB I tell them not to worry about it -- if I knock it, I kill it.  Some melee will then say "OK" thinking (and hoping) that I will soon go splat and are then surprised but satisfied when I don't.  They can go off and herd the next group and avoid the frustration of having to chase my targets.  Win-Win.  When I play my Storm/Storm corrupter I'll restrict unleashing all my chaos when on a team or I'll go to another group of critters and let loose on them without bothering the teammates.

 

On the other hand, I have also been annoyed when I was in the process of landing something like soul drain and everything gets scattered just as I fired my attack and not only do I not hit the big group but my damage is nerfed for a chunk of time.

 

I also agree with the poster that mentioned other effects potentially being problematic.  It's very frustrating when you are herding a bunch of Rikti into the MSR bowl and they get immobilized in a conga line at the edge of the bowl.  Or you get the best of both worlds:  scattered KB followed by an immob so now you have to single target attack each critter! 

 

Ultimately, I think this problem can be solved with communication, kindness, coordination, and consideration.  If you hate any KB with a passion, tell folks politely why or form your own No-KB-team.  If you insist on using KB tell folks politely why or form your own Chaos team.  Now that you know where the other player is coming from you can try to reach an agreement (like you knock it, you kill it or please wait until I use x power) or just decide it's not worth it and either play solo or find another team in line with your preferences. 

Edited July 2 by GM_GooglyMoogly

[Seed22]

1 hour ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Wait, so you're saying that the moderators on this forum are biased? Wow. That explains so much. Thanks for the heads up! 😃

What, ya gonna go to CityAnon and talk about how its all a psi op job to get post banned and how mods are all biased because they’re apart of some CoH elite sphere? 😛

 

Snark aside, the mods have been pretty chill from what I’ve seen, if anything I think they could be a little heavy handed on some discussions but overall not overtly biased.

 

You keep claiming they are because of an incident I assume you had before with them and its sounding reeeal tinfoil hat-y to say the least

Edited July 2 by Seed22

[Seed22]

9 minutes ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

 

You misspelled "BASED."  😉

 

Anyway, knockback is one of those topics that people feel strongly about.  On my player account, I will sometimes slot -KB on knockback attacks, but not always.  Shin would kick me so fast from his team because I use meteor and I don't slot it with -KB.  Going back to the OP, when I get chastised for using KB I tell them not to worry about it -- if I knock it, I kill it.  Some melee will then say "OK" thinking (and hoping) that I will soon go splat and are then surprised but satisfied when I don't.  They can go off and herd the next group and avoid the frustration of having to chase my targets.  Win-Win.  When I play my Storm/Storm corrupter I'll restrict unleashing all my chaos when on a team or I'll go to another group of critters and let loose on them without bothering the teammates.

 

On the other hand, I have also been annoyed when I was in the process of landing something like soul drain and everything gets scattered just as I fired my attack and not only do I not hit the big group but my damage is nerfed for a chunk of time.

 

I also agree with the poster that mentioned other effects potentially being problematic.  It's very frustrating when you are herding a bunch of Rikti into the MSR bowl and they get immobilized in a conga line at the edge of the bowl.  Or you get the best of both worlds:  scattered KB followed by an immob so now you have to single target attack each critter! 

 

Ultimately, I think this problem can be solved with communication, kindness, coordination, and consideration.  If you hate any KB with a passion, tell folks politely why or form your own No KB tea,.  If you insist on using KB tell folks politely why or form your own Chaos team.  Now that you know where the other player is coming from you can try to reach an agreement (like you knock it, you kill it or please wait until I use x power) or just decide it's not worth it and either play solo or find another team in line with your preferences. 

This is really a pretty good option.

 

And I haven’t been clear on my stance; I don’t hate KB. I hate people who prioritize their own fun over others in a team setting even after being politely asked to not do so. 
 

 

[Luminara]

32 minutes ago, Forager said:

-The fact that even if you try to position yourself, enemies left behind are the scatter... that was something I never thought about.

 

They're mad if you knock 'em back, they're mad if you don't knock 'em back...

[arcane]

1 hour ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Wait, so you're saying that the moderators on this forum are biased? Wow. That explains so much. Thanks for the heads up! 😃

Biased against who? We know for a fact that certain members of the Developer Defense League get routinely banned, which undermines the claim I’m guessing you’re making.

[macskull]

5 hours ago, Lunar Ronin said:

Plus, Group Fly only impacts teammates, not league mates, and can be easily turned off at Null the Gull in Pocket D.  If people are too lazy to take the two minutes to do so, then that's on them.

“Everyone else should have to go out of their way to change a setting so my build doesn’t annoy them” isn’t a good argument. People don’t turn off Group Fly at Null the Gull because running into someone who actually takes and uses Group Fly is rare - and if they’re on a task force they can’t go there and disable the setting if they even wanted to.

 

Honestly, the simplest solution to this issue is to make Group Fly disabled by default so the people who want to use it need to go talk to the bird.
 

3 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

I do believe that they have to be in melee range in order to use their ranged attacks. How far that "melee range" extends, I don't know.

You believe incorrectly. It has never worked that way.

[Snarky]

No Knockback!

[ZemX]

12 minutes ago, Snarky said:

No Knockback!

 

Off topic: I like to think of that scene as Whedon's answer to the "Han Shot First" controversy.

 

On topic: But seriously, if we could knock stuff into jet engines, I would use only the KB... to more KB converters.

[JasperStone]

The responses here make me reflect on the above thread.

 

We fail new players and players in general by telling them something in the game  could be better is awful and not to play it.

 

I recently saw it in the General/Help channels: a new player(s) asking about this powerset or that powerset.

Response: "That set is hot garbage; you should play [insert your favorite set] instead." Or something akin to that

Happens here in the forums as well.

 

Nothing in this game is bad, just depends on how you play.

 

So ...  we lead by example. We show how it can be done.

 

I used Repel on my Fire/Kin to push stuff back into the mob

got a tell: "Whoa I was told Repel was BAD and not to take it ... used that way guess not!

Yes ... I am veteran of the Mothership bowl where we used this tactic

 

I used my 2 single target powers on my Energy/Energy blaster to knock targets back into mob

tell: "Guess Knockback is not that BAD"

 The Mothership is also where I refined this by plinking Rikti from the edge into the bowl

 

A new player on a tank, Inv/SS, opened with Stomp every single time.

Team leader told them it was best not to open with it as it scatters the mob

"Ok"

Done easy

 

We lead by example.

The easy answer is to just slot the SA proc.

Sure ... easy.

Or you could learn/teach how to actually play a powerset and utilize its powers and inherit effects 

It helps when there are players to imitate. 

 

I reflect on Jack's saying being a hero/villain requires choices.

Therefore I do slot the SA in SOME of my powers,  but not all.

 

 

Edited July 2 by JasperStone

[Ghost]

1 hour ago, Seed22 said:

I am both. What about it? 
 

I shouldn’t need to explain, but this is the CoH forums so it is what it is, why letting people play the way they want DOES NOT MEAN letting people put their fun above others.

 

Do I, Ghost? Or would you like an in depth explanation 🙂

“Leave people alone to play however they want.  Just as long as it doesn’t interfere or go against me!”

 

No need to explain.

[JasperStone]

3 minutes ago, ZemX said:

 

Off topic: I like to think of that scene as Whedon's answer to the "Han Shot First" controversy.

 

On topic: But seriously, if we could knock stuff into jet engines, I would use only the KB... to more KB converters.

 A very lengthy KB discussion brought up the idea of impact DMG when they land after being KD'd

That could be fun in a building - KB-ing into walls and such

Edited July 2 by JasperStone

[Ravenplume]

8 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

 

 

... and I keep seeing so many tanks and brutes not running with taunt and - even if they have it - not using it every time it is recharged (it cost no END so why not use it every time it recharges?)

 

On the rare times I am making a tank, sure, I will take Taunt as soon as it comes up.  If rolling a Brute, Taunt is optional and only if there is nothing better to take.  The Brute itself IS the taunt.  :)

[Lunar Ronin]

29 minutes ago, macskull said:

“Everyone else should have to go out of their way to change a setting so my build doesn’t annoy them” isn’t a good argument. People don’t turn off Group Fly at Null the Gull because running into someone who actually takes and uses Group Fly is rare - and if they’re on a task force they can’t go there and disable the setting if they even wanted to.

 

Honestly, the simplest solution to this issue is to make Group Fly disabled by default so the people who want to use it need to go talk to the bird.
 

You believe incorrectly. It has never worked that way.

 

Group Fly isn't common, but it isn't as rare these days as it used to be.  If you haven't noticed, there's been a lot more complaints about it on both the forums and on the Discord server in the past couple of years compared to 2019 and 2020.    Combination of Group Fly being buffed in Page 2 and made more useful, and four Mastermind primaries being buffed in Page 5.  I expect usage of Group Fly to grow in the future.

 

I actually agree with you that it would be nice for Group Fly to be disabled by default, and it was brought up during the Page 2 beta IIRC.  However, it was stated by Powerhouse that doing so would also disable Group Fly for henchmen as well, making the power essentially useless.  So people are just going to have to get used to talking with Null the Gull for a few extra seconds while changing alignment.  I do it on every single character I make.  If I can do it, so can everyone else.

[BattleMaster]

I must be one of them rare people that when playing a melee alt i couldn't give two hoots if things are getting KB'd. On my NRG toons I very rarely slot KB>KD and just go have fun, solo or in teams. Minions die in seconds, Lts in a few more seconds and Bosses not to long after than in teams, not long enough to be worried about the KB tbh.

 

It looks more heroic/villainous and if FUN to watch. Still wish I would find the person I played with back on live when we made a Thug/Storm duo and watched the chaos.

[Ravenplume]

2 hours ago, Indystruck said:

I will KB 100,000,000,000 foes through the walls before I pay a tax for a enhancement that does not boost a stat

 

If God asks me to sacrifice power for function then I will simply face God and walk backwards into Hell

Heh.  The greater majority of my attacks always get 6 slots, with the intention of a full set of one sort or another (with ATOs, Winters, and PVPs getting priority early on); and there are very few sets that have a KB to KD piece, K-Crash and Overwhelmong Force.  And OF is one percharacter on top of that.

[Bionic_Flea]

Yomo asked for a KB incarnate power above.  I think it would be very cool to have an Alpha that added KB on the core side and reduced KB on the radial side.  The higher up the tree you go, the greater the effect of either +KB or -KB.  You could even make both sides to switch back and forth as wanted or needed.  I would also love if that included a damage proc or +dam added that increased damage the further back a thing is knocked.  Probably not possible to have that kind of conditional damage, but damn would that be cool.

Edited July 2 by Bionic_Flea

[Luminara]

5 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Probably not possible to have that kind of conditional damage, but damn would that be cool.

 

Apply "Grant Power" (all affected targets) Temporary_Powers.Temporary_Powers.Knocked

 

Knocked

100% chance

(α * Melee/Ranged_Knockback) points of Smashing damage (self) after β seconds

if target>enttype eq 'critter'

 

α = KB magnitude * 0.1 (or 0.01, or 1.0, or 867.5309, whatever variable gives an appropriate result)

β = time between successful attack roll and post-KB impact (the engine already calculates how far something travels and how long it takes to get there when affected by KB, so this doesn't even need any extra CPU time, just pass the temporal value to β)

 

Not only possible, easy.

[Relocated]

1 hour ago, BattleMaster said:

I must be one of them rare people that when playing a melee alt i couldn't give two hoots if things are getting KB'd. On my NRG toons I very rarely slot KB>KD and just go have fun, solo or in teams. Minions die in seconds, Lts in a few more seconds and Bosses not to long after than in teams, not long enough to be worried about the KB tbh.

 

It looks more heroic/villainous and if FUN to watch. Still wish I would find the person I played with back on live when we made a Thug/Storm duo and watched the chaos.

I concur with your first sentence. What’s irksome to me? Receiving tells about free influence from suspicious people, wherein I end up ignoring back when CoH was live.