Setting a max level on PUGs

[MrPengy]

Normally when I run a PUG (usually radios or papers, with an occasional arc like the Hollows) I invite characters of all levels. As long as you get a few high enough level toons, most teams can handle content even with some level 1ish heroes who are functionally useless against +2s.

 

Some times though, a level 50 maxed out character will join our level 20 radio team. And it kinda sucks the fun out of it. These level 50s have tons of set bonuses, and tons of slots filled with much better enhancements than I can put in the measly 2-4 slots each power has. This is weird to say, but I actually like playing my characters. When a level 50 maxed out scrapper can solo an entire mob of the +1s I can barely hit, I'm not really playing, I'm just throwing powers into the ether while he murders every thing in sight. It prevents me from getting a feel for my powers, ya know? Like how is that new armor power I just picked up? Dunno, every thing dies before I can get hit. Is this debuff making the enemies powerless against us? Well, they were already powerless against the one guy. Is my control power even worth using? I can't tell, because there's no threat to try it against!

 

Also, some times, I like to struggle. I have fond memories of less than perfect teams biting the dust almost every encounter in Faultline and still pulling out a victory. I can faceroll mobs while barely watching the screen when I hit 50, until then I want to actually fight.

 

Now I get that I'm running a team, and I can do it any way I damn well please. If I want to run a radio mission where I only invite heroes with a banana theme, that's my choice! But how would you react if some one was forming a team, and not allowing any one over a certain level?

[lemming]

It's totally up to you.  And I say that as someone with only 50s currently.  (Though I'm just starting a couple experiments)

[caradoc1979]

Anyone in LFG is welcome to ask for specifics to fulfill whatever it is they are doing, just as you said, banana hammocks and all 🙂

 

If they were upfront and said they didn't want my 50 on the team because it would take away their experience of learning the game, I'd respect that. It's a huge game, I can go do something, anything else and not give it a second thought at 50 with access to Ouroboros and every TF/trial. At low levels, you're far more limited. 

[Random Axis]

54 minutes ago, MrPengy said:

Normally when I run a PUG (usually radios or papers, with an occasional arc like the Hollows) I invite characters of all levels. As long as you get a few high enough level toons, most teams can handle content even with some level 1ish heroes who are functionally useless against +2s.

 

Some times though, a level 50 maxed out character will join our level 20 radio team. And it kinda sucks the fun out of it. These level 50s have tons of set bonuses, and tons of slots filled with much better enhancements than I can put in the measly 2-4 slots each power has. This is weird to say, but I actually like playing my characters. When a level 50 maxed out scrapper can solo an entire mob of the +1s I can barely hit, I'm not really playing, I'm just throwing powers into the ether while he murders every thing in sight. It prevents me from getting a feel for my powers, ya know? Like how is that new armor power I just picked up? Dunno, every thing dies before I can get hit. Is this debuff making the enemies powerless against us? Well, they were already powerless against the one guy. Is my control power even worth using? I can't tell, because there's no threat to try it against!

 

Also, some times, I like to struggle. I have fond memories of less than perfect teams biting the dust almost every encounter in Faultline and still pulling out a victory. I can faceroll mobs while barely watching the screen when I hit 50, until then I want to actually fight.

 

Now I get that I'm running a team, and I can do it any way I damn well please. If I want to run a radio mission where I only invite heroes with a banana theme, that's my choice! But how would you react if some one was forming a team, and not allowing any one over a certain level?

I would be perfectly OK seeing "lf3m for hollows arc. No one over level 40 please." pop up in the LFG channel. 

[Snarky]

Unless the 50 has a second build dedicated to 20 level…. Their set bonuses and enhancement values probably suck.  
 

do not take my word.  Look it up

[Triumphant]

1 hour ago, MrPengy said:

Normally when I run a PUG (usually radios or papers, with an occasional arc like the Hollows) I invite characters of all levels. As long as you get a few high enough level toons, most teams can handle content even with some level 1ish heroes who are functionally useless against +2s.

 

Some times though, a level 50 maxed out character will join our level 20 radio team. And it kinda sucks the fun out of it. These level 50s have tons of set bonuses, and tons of slots filled with much better enhancements than I can put in the measly 2-4 slots each power has. This is weird to say, but I actually like playing my characters. When a level 50 maxed out scrapper can solo an entire mob of the +1s I can barely hit, I'm not really playing, I'm just throwing powers into the ether while he murders every thing in sight. It prevents me from getting a feel for my powers, ya know? Like how is that new armor power I just picked up? Dunno, every thing dies before I can get hit. Is this debuff making the enemies powerless against us? Well, they were already powerless against the one guy. Is my control power even worth using? I can't tell, because there's no threat to try it against!

 

Also, some times, I like to struggle. I have fond memories of less than perfect teams biting the dust almost every encounter in Faultline and still pulling out a victory. I can faceroll mobs while barely watching the screen when I hit 50, until then I want to actually fight.

 

Now I get that I'm running a team, and I can do it any way I damn well please. If I want to run a radio mission where I only invite heroes with a banana theme, that's my choice! But how would you react if some one was forming a team, and not allowing any one over a certain level?

 

If you're running/recruiting the team, I think it's perfectly acceptable to be specific about your pitch:  LFM for lvl 20 radio missions.  Please, no one over lvl 20 (or whatever you want to put the cap at). I actually appreciate this kind of clear statement of what you want from a team.  I don't want to bring anything to the team that's going to ruin your fun and since you are forming the PUG, something that is often shunned by players (including myself), I think it should be your prerogative to set the parameters.  If potential PUG recruits don't like your ground rules, they should (IMO) join a different team.

 

Just one guy's opinion (and this is coming from a guy that mostly likes playing lvl 50's at lvl 50+ difficulty- though I do occasionally want to scratch that itch for low-level play.  Not often, but it happens.).  Other's can feel free to disagree, I guess, but I personally don't find anything wrong with it.

[Greycat]

2 hours ago, MrPengy said:

Now I get that I'm running a team, and I can do it any way I damn well please. If I want to run a radio mission where I only invite heroes with a banana theme, that's my choice! But how would you react if some one was forming a team, and not allowing any one over a certain level?

 

Same way I'd react if you required certain ATs, or nobody under a certain level, or only people with fuscia in their outfits. Your team, run how you like, if I'm interested I'll see if I meet the requirements (or alt to someone who does) and respond.

[Digirium]

It is your PUG you can set the terms however you like.

 

A few misconceptions - a level 50 fully enhanced with set bonuses up the wazoo joining a level 20 PUG those set bonuses mostly evaporate unless the build is set for level 20 (unlikely) and the enhancements scale down to level 20 as well. It is likely that you are seeing a player who has been playing for years, has been on the struggle-bus to develop their knowledge and skills and knows how to apply powers effectively. That is all very different to your position learning the hard way to acquire the same thing they have.

 

You could advertise your PUG on LFG as "learning to play, not speedy at all" this would set the right basis to nurture your skill at playing the game.

 

 

[Ukase]

You're overthinking it. I've seen level 11's recruit for an MSR. I've seen one player take the opposite approach with some odd trailer to his recruitment message, something like "your monster uber super ultra 50 welcome"

You could recruit as you normally do with the trailer "level XX and under please." No explanations are needed. There may be one or two that might be curious enough to ask, and then you can elaborate if you wish. But I doubt it.

[ZemX]

13 hours ago, MrPengy said:

Some times though, a level 50 maxed out character will join our level 20 radio team. And it kinda sucks the fun out of it. These level 50s have tons of set bonuses, and tons of slots filled with much better enhancements than I can put in the measly 2-4 slots each power has. This is weird to say, but I actually like playing my characters.

 

Want to hear something more weird?  I mostly exemp down from 50 to run on lower levels teams... for the same reason.   Level 50 steam-roller teams are boring AF.  Good for money.  But hardly what I call playing.  There isn't really tanking or controlling or debuffing or any other role on an Incarnate 50 team except damage.  Not doing normal content anyway.  It's just rolling explosions following by corpses.

 

So as one of these fully tricked-out 50s ruining your fun.... absolutely put a max limit on your team if you want to.  And I won't bother you.   And I'm not offended.  You have your fun.  I have mine.  For what it's worth, I try not to exemp down quite as low as 20 unless it's a TF at that level.   25 is decent.  30 is the sweet spot.

[ZemX]

11 hours ago, Snarky said:

Unless the 50 has a second build dedicated to 20 level…. Their set bonuses and enhancement values probably suck.  
 

do not take my word.  Look it up

 

I think that still works out in favor of the Exemplar.  You might have your individual enhancement strengths scaled to 55% or so going 50 down to 20, but you probably have more than double the number of enhancement slots in the powers you have access to.   Speaking of which you have access to two more powers than everybody else (your 22 and 24 power picks) as Exemplars get to use powers up to five levels above the team lead.

 

Granted, there will be single aspects where the natural 20 may be beating the Exemplar.  e.g. You have an attack with three damage SOs and I have a full set of Mako's Bite or something like that.  You've got much better damage enhancement.  But I have better everything else probably.

 

And while few sets are active down to a minimum level of 20, there's still purples, winters, ATOs, and PvP sets that are.   Those set bonuses don't get scaled down and they are active whether they are in a power you have access to at 20 or not.  And the aforementioned number of slots probably also means you generally have more of those sweet one-slot-wonder procs scattered about.   Performance shifters and Numinas and Luck of the Gamblers and the like.

 

You probably also have all the accolade stat boosters, which few at 20 would have done yet.

 

The above is not a math proof, but it matches my anecdotal experience exemplaring tankers anyway.  Always feel WAY more powerful and sturdy than I did at real 20.  I can definitely see why the OP might not want such an overachiever on their team all the time.

[srmalloy]

1 hour ago, ZemX said:

There isn't really tanking or controlling or debuffing or any other role on an Incarnate 50 team except damage.  Not doing normal content anyway.  It's just rolling explosions following by corpses.

I have a level 50 Grav/Traps Controller, and she plays completely different on teams than she does solo. Solo, she'll move up moderately near a spawn, lay down a number of trip mines determined by their relative level and a Poison Gas Trap or two, then Wormhole the spawn into the middle of the mines, letting my Singularity clean up any not-quite-dead survivors. Not particularly speedy, but walking through a mission with none of the mobs ever getting an attack off has its own appeal. On teams, that all goes out the window. At most, she'll put down a trip mine or two if there's a known route where an ambush will roll in from, but Lift, Propel, and the Singularity make up the vast majority of her activity; no one is interested in waiting for the time necessary to set up a room-clearing mine field.

[MrPengy]

13 hours ago, Snarky said:

Unless the 50 has a second build dedicated to 20 level…. Their set bonuses and enhancement values probably suck.  

 

6 hours ago, Digirium said:

A few misconceptions - a level 50 fully enhanced with set bonuses up the wazoo joining a level 20 PUG those set bonuses mostly evaporate unless the build is set for level 20 (unlikely) and the enhancements scale down to level 20 as well.

 

I was wondering how much power they truly keep. But any time I notice one person really standing out on a mid 20s to low 30s team, it's a level 50. I can understand some degree of being extra skilled with that toon due to time spent with it, but I think there's more to it than that. Or I'm wrong and this is just confirmation bias.

 

1 hour ago, ZemX said:

I mostly exemp down from 50 to run on lower levels teams... for the same reason.   Level 50 steam-roller teams are boring AF.  Good for money.  But hardly what I call playing.  There isn't really tanking or controlling or debuffing or any other role on an Incarnate 50 team except damage.  Not doing normal content anyway.  It's just rolling explosions following by corpses.

 

Yeah, playing at 50 is vastly different from playing up to 50. I do enjoy the occasional "melt everything that stands in front of you" play session, but I rarely play my 50s except to do TinPex or ITF.

 

Thanks for the replies, all. I think I just feel weird about excluding people. The community in this game is (typically) so friendly and welcoming. Telling people "Nah, you can't come have fun with us" just doesn't sit right.

[Doomguide2005]

13 hours ago, Snarky said:

Unless the 50 has a second build dedicated to 20 level…. Their set bonuses and enhancement values probably suck.  
 

do not take my word.  Look it up

Yes, but it does depend a great deal on what level they're exemplared to.  Below 27th and to a slightly lesser degree 22nd is where set bonuses are really getting  dropped, outside of heavy use of purple and pvp IOs.  Enhancement values individually 'suck' but only compared to their full lvl 50 values.  Even a Purple IO scaled aspect is similar in value to an enhancement of that level.  The difference is really a factor of slots rather than individual enhancement aspects (and the existence of set bonuses).  The other factor I haven't seen mentioned is inspirations, 20 slots vs less as well as the strength of the inspires in those slots particularly when exemplared to very low levels (sub 20).  

 

Edit:  The 5 level boost in power choices (and the changes in when you can access said powers also contributes)

 

PS 2: And to answer the op it wouldn't bother me at all and if I was interested I have plenty of characters i could swap to.

Edited August 2 by Doomguide2005

[Snarky]

2 hours ago, ZemX said:

 

I think that still works out in favor of the Exemplar.  You might have your individual enhancement strengths scaled to 55% or so going 50 down to 20, but you probably have more than double the number of enhancement slots in the powers you have access to.   Speaking of which you have access to two more powers than everybody else (your 22 and 24 power picks) as Exemplars get to use powers up to five levels above the team lead.

 

Granted, there will be single aspects where the natural 20 may be beating the Exemplar.  e.g. You have an attack with three damage SOs and I have a full set of Mako's Bite or something like that.  You've got much better damage enhancement.  But I have better everything else probably.

 

And while few sets are active down to a minimum level of 20, there's still purples, winters, ATOs, and PvP sets that are.   Those set bonuses don't get scaled down and they are active whether they are in a power you have access to at 20 or not.  And the aforementioned number of slots probably also means you generally have more of those sweet one-slot-wonder procs scattered about.   Performance shifters and Numinas and Luck of the Gamblers and the like.

 

You probably also have all the accolade stat boosters, which few at 20 would have done yet.

 

The above is not a math proof, but it matches my anecdotal experience exemplaring tankers anyway.  Always feel WAY more powerful and sturdy than I did at real 20.  I can definitely see why the OP might not want such an overachiever on their team all the time.

If, big if, you build for it you may get some advantages.  Power enhancement is NOT one of them.  A natural 20 can easily max damage but an exemplared toon will be below cap significantly.  

[ZemX]

31 minutes ago, Snarky said:

If, big if, you build for it you may get some advantages.  Power enhancement is NOT one of them.  A natural 20 can easily max damage but an exemplared toon will be below cap significantly.  

 

Yeah, I pointed that out.   You can easily max one aspect.  Maybe two in one power.  But at 20 you've got 12 powers and 20 slots to assign to each beyond the default one.   So that's not a lot of fully slotted powers.  The 50 has all powers fully slotted at least, which means yes, those strengths all get dialed back to 55% but you have more aspects e.g. acc/dmg/end/recharge in each power than any natural 20 has.  AND you do have any purple, PvP, winter, and ATO set bonuses.  You have all the procs.

 

Maybe it's different for other ATs, but my experience exemplaring down my 50 tanker to even as far as 20 is that it still feels stronger than any natural 20.   I can see it being a bigger deal on a Blaster that was enjoying soft-capped defense at 50 losing all that going down to 20 and having their attacks no longer even enhanced to ED cap on damage.   But I would still wonder if all the other benefits outweigh that vs. a natural 20 blaster who is just as fragile but is probably struggling more with endurance or slower recharge on powers than the exemplar.

[Doomguide2005]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

If, big if, you build for it you may get some advantages.  Power enhancement is NOT one of them.  A natural 20 can easily max damage but an exemplared toon will be below cap significantly.  

I assume the cap you are talking about is ED damage?  Neither character is likely to alone hit the damage cap outside edge cases and or the use of inspires (which the 20 might match once unless feeding themselves out of the mail or other such circumstances).

 

But all this amounts to a slight tangent to why a 50 or other higher level character is more powerful and therefore might, from the OPs PoV, tend to overshadow the at level characters and do so negatively raising the question of restricting exemplars level range to enhance the overall team experience  

 

Edit:  And again depends quite a bit to how low one exemplars.  Multi-aspect IOs don't necessarily suffer any scaling of their IOs until below a certain level.  A quad aspect lvl 50 IO has toe get  below 20 before it suffers any reduction.  The single largest factor in favor of the lower non-exemplar is the change allowing SO enhancements to be used from the get go plus the ease of gaining the wealth to purchase them without outside assistance.

Edited August 2 by Doomguide2005

[Without_Pause]

Crappy set bonuses is still better than none. Additional slots are still additional slots. At level 13 I could have maybe 3 slots in a power. At 50, it is 6. Exempted to level 13 still means I get more powers than an actual level 13 character. And again, those powers will have more slots. Hello 6-slotted level 18 power. There is also a significant difference in inspiration slots than someone who is actually level 13. My ability to solo while doing flashbacks is much better even exempted down to rather lower levels. I'm not saying I keep my diff setting the same. I'm also not saying I put it as if I am level 13.

[Doomguide2005]

35 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

Crappy set bonuses is still better than none. Additional slots are still additional slots. At level 13 I could have maybe 3 slots in a power. At 50, it is 6. Exempted to level 13 still means I get more powers than an actual level 13 character. And again, those powers will have more slots. Hello 6-slotted level 18 power. There is also a significant difference in inspiration slots than someone who is actually level 13. My ability to solo while doing flashbacks is much better even exempted down to rather lower levels. I'm not saying I keep my diff setting the same. I'm also not saying I put it as if I am level 13.

This ^

In Posi 1 my lvl 50 t4 Claws/SR can shred things with a 6-slotted ATO Spin.  Doubtful if any lowbie is going to match it even if they have actually obtained it being only a few level over the TF cap.  And I can do so with several red or dual red/yellow running.

[Without_Pause]

20 minutes ago, Doomguide2005 said:

This ^

In Posi 1 my lvl 50 t4 Claws/SR can shred things with a 6-slotted ATO Spin.  Doubtful if any lowbie is going to match it even if they have actually obtained it being only a few level over the TF cap.  And I can do so with several red or dual red/yellow running.

ATOs can be in FU and Spin, so that's both Scrapper procs with two full sets of bonuses. Focus is also available at 13 exempted down. Who cares about set bonuses it offers. You have a full fledged ST attack chain and Spin fully slotted out. Don't act like PVP sets aren't used in end game builds either. 

[Snarky]

4 hours ago, ZemX said:

 

Yeah, I pointed that out.   You can easily max one aspect.  Maybe two in one power.  But at 20 you've got 12 powers and 20 slots to assign to each beyond the default one.   So that's not a lot of fully slotted powers.  The 50 has all powers fully slotted at least, which means yes, those strengths all get dialed back to 55% but you have more aspects e.g. acc/dmg/end/recharge in each power than any natural 20 has.  AND you do have any purple, PvP, winter, and ATO set bonuses.  You have all the procs.

 

Maybe it's different for other ATs, but my experience exemplaring down my 50 tanker to even as far as 20 is that it still feels stronger than any natural 20.   I can see it being a bigger deal on a Blaster that was enjoying soft-capped defense at 50 losing all that going down to 20 and having their attacks no longer even enhanced to ED cap on damage.   But I would still wonder if all the other benefits outweigh that vs. a natural 20 blaster who is just as fragile but is probably struggling more with endurance or slower recharge on powers than the exemplar.

lets be clear.  you need to hit and do damage.  period.  

 

I have built a LOT of exemplared toons.  I do this for badging Ouro.  I would GLADLY trade the ability to actually make the toon the correct level rather than exemplar.  A natural toon at 15-20-25 is more effective than a exemplared one. 

 

The only benefits a 50 gets coming down (and this only if built correct) is to have "unusable powers" that mule globals and set bonuses.  This does not make up for your attacks hitting behind 40 oz boxing gloves/pillows.  you also get access to 1-2 more powers (up to that 5 levels above)  That is not bad, but it usually is just "nice"  Having your teeth filed down is just annoying.

[Snarky]

4 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

I assume the cap you are talking about is ED damage?  Neither character is likely to alone hit the damage cap outside edge cases and or the use of inspires (which the 20 might match once unless feeding themselves out of the mail or other such circumstances).

 

But all this amounts to a slight tangent to why a 50 or other higher level character is more powerful and therefore might, from the OPs PoV, tend to overshadow the at level characters and do so negatively raising the question of restricting exemplars level range to enhance the overall team experience  

 

Edit:  And again depends quite a bit to how low one exemplars.  Multi-aspect IOs don't necessarily suffer any scaling of their IOs until below a certain level.  A quad aspect lvl 50 IO has toe get  below 20 before it suffers any reduction.  The single largest factor in favor of the lower non-exemplar is the change allowing SO enhancements to be used from the get go plus the ease of gaining the wealth to purchase them without outside assistance.

You can hit damage cap at level 5 in a power.  1 acc SO, 3 Dam SO   Generally I use 1 Acc SO, 2 Dam SO, and a P2W dam/rech/proc in powers I use a lot.  This misses a little on natural damage but picks up a proc and rech.  you can do that on 5 powers.  you can always go 1 acc/3dam SO on any power.  How is it hard to sproing off ED cap at low levels?  You.... you arent still using training enhancement are you?

 

[Without_Pause]

34 minutes ago, Snarky said:

You can hit damage cap at level 5 in a power.  1 acc SO, 3 Dam SO   Generally I use 1 Acc SO, 2 Dam SO, and a P2W dam/rech/proc in powers I use a lot.  This misses a little on natural damage but picks up a proc and rech.  you can do that on 5 powers.  you can always go 1 acc/3dam SO on any power.  How is it hard to sproing off ED cap at low levels?  You.... you arent still using training enhancement are you?

 

I only use IOs. I'm perfectly fine with using my as is build so there is zero extra effort or planning on my part for being exempt.

 

"But you aren't damage capped."

 

And? Having less damage but end reducs and recharge slotted is perfectly fine. More so when it involves zero effort on my end. Again, if I can solo on even reasonably higher diff setting, why would I waste time slotting in for a level 20 build? IIRC, I accidently left my diff setting at +1/x8 once and soloed the mission just fine. I can't recall the level I did it at, but it was at a level where I had zero chance of doing it at that level starting out. 

[ZemX]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

lets be clear.  you need to hit and do damage.  period.  

 

Fair, but I just hopped in game and asked Synapse to help me win an internet argument.  He agreed and promptly exemp'd me to 20.  Here's a couple quick snaps:

Global 1.3x accuracy bonus.  45% acc in my big hitter here.  Is that ED-cap damage?  No, of course not.  Does this make any real difference at level 20?  Not that I've ever been able to tell.  Again, maybe this is a much bigger deal on a Blaster.  I don't know.  I don't play Blasters.  But this situation above looks pretty damned good and it's definitely not what I remember from being actually level 20 with this same tank.  I haven't posted every stat here but I'll just say Resistances on this mostly-resist-based tank look pretty damned good too.  From a purely enhancement scaling perspective, for example, I am losing all of 6% smashing lethal defense in the pic below compared to what it looks like at 50 with ED-capped RES enhancement in the toggles.  And this is more than made up for by the set bonuses.  No SO-slotted 20 rad tank is looking this good for resistances:

 

 

I'm not sure why your experience is so different but your statement about being more effective at real 20?  Not just no.  Hell no.  Not for this character anyway.  Maybe this looks markedly worse at 15.  But it's a clear win for the exemplar at 50 here going down to 20.  It's not even close.  Maybe per punch this is doing less damage, fractionally, but its getting in more punches, managing endurance better, and is WAY sturdier.  Again, it's not even close.

 

Could be you have a different build strategy at 50 and not nearly as many purple set bonuses as I am showing here.  That's definitely making a big difference.  But this matches what the OP is saying about having 50s roll in and own the place on low level teams.  And this is why.  The benefits can easily outweigh the "teeth filing" you are talking about.

 

[SeraphimKensai]

I'll echo the sentiment of if you're running the team you set the rules. I've had people go and get a new costume before to fit a theme for a team that ended up becoming a super team over a few sessions before.