Where does HC come down on historical characters in AE/MA?

[mechahamham]

When people ask about what the name/likeness rules mean in chat, I usually respond with something like 'No real people. No religion. No politics.'

 

But then there are a handful of fictionalized and nonfictional historical references throughout the game... like https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Will_to_Win

 

I've seen the GMs generic characters that were closely or even loosely based on real people who are no longer among the living. For example, somewhat recently, I heard a player complaining that their villainous character based off of Charles Manson had been generic'd. The infamous Mister Manson died in 2017 (and the world became a better place), less than a decade ago, but the people in chat, myself included, concluded that the character ran afoul of the 'Real People' rule.

 

This raises the question, how would HC GMs react to more historical characters, especially in the context of Mission Architect?

 

We know that Nemesis attempted to interfere in the American Civil War. If one traveled back in time to prevent his interference, and met William Sherman or Ulysses Grant in the process, would that run afoul of the rules?

 

We know that the Fifth Column/Council have attempted to time travel to the WW2 era. If one followed a certain Mr. Ubellmann back in time, would meeting Douglas MacArthur or Dwight Eisenhower break the rules?

 

There are other examples along this same kind of tangent. I'd be interested in hearing from the GM staff on if they have guidelines for this kind of thing, and where they'd rule on such situations.

 

-- Edit -

 

GM_Crumpet has provided an EXCELLENT clarification on the rules for historical figures in a post near the bottom of the page! A good general rule is nothing "Post World War 2".

Edited August 18 by mechahamham
GM Clarification

[Techwright]

Perhaps it would be best to send the GMs a direct inquiry, though I understand putting it in a public forum would allow others to see the results.

 

My guess is that it is a hard, fast rule.  But if not, I suspect the lifespan of the player base is a good measuring stick.  Say, 1934 if you want a clean number.  I don't know any players 90 years and up, though perhaps there are.  I've heard of one or two in their 80s. 

 

Manson died in 2017, yes, but he lived through years of our lives.  Sherman and Grant did not. (I'm making a general assumption here.  Just pointing that out in case any here lived contemporaneously to the generals and are miffed.)  The farther back in time we go, the less we know about a person (usually) which could lend itself to fictional writing.   The Roman writer Virgil, for example, had a fictional counterpart in Dante's Inferno.  Dante would have known some things about Virgil but the distance of time blurred the real writer enough that Dante was able to create something fictional with what was left.

 

If one was to create a Cimerora story involving Virgil, it is my guess that not much would be said about it.  Perhaps not even someone more contemporary, say, an AE mystery arc featuring Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (d.1930) who was still alive during the youth of the parents of a very few of us.  However, if one were to create an AE story in which Stephen King (still living as of this post). Tom Wolfe (d.2018), or John Steinbeck (d. 1968) featured, it would, I suspect, be challenged, because they were living during our lifetimes.

 

One other aspect to consider is how the fictionalized version of the real person might be used.  Returning to the American Civil War, if Abraham Lincoln, for example, was portrayed as an axe-wielding vampire hunter, a few eyebrows would be raised, but folks would note that he did swing an axe as a rail splitter in his youth, and he's portrayed in a positive light, so functionally he's still good ol' Abe.  If, however, he's portrayed as a vicious highwayman, there would be cause for an outcry as it is contrary to his historical "Honest Abe" nature.   I'm from the American South, born to it, and if any are unaware, despite cultural improvements in the last 50-60 years, there are residual pockets of culture here where Honest Abe is hated with a white-hot passion. It is quite possible that his character could be maligned in a project by someone, perhaps for the reasons that some hold to these generation-old hatreds.  This potential to portray a real person as something they were not is probably the more important of the two considerations, and a reason why the rule may need to be hard and fast.  Imagine if you were a player with a famous ancestor whom you found sorely maligned in a work in your favorite game.  Would that not be a fight brewing?

 

 

Edited August 18 by Techwright

[Greycat]

I'd say the way @Techwright is leaning there is probably right. And that there's *probably* a little more leeway in AE vs player characters, on top of how they're used.

 

An AE that.. say... winds up in a fight between an army of Donald Trumps and Kamela Harrisses... Harrisi? ... would probably get stomped on as soon as it was known about. Living people, current events, etc.

 

Going back to save Abe Lincoln - who's almost more a cultural icon than "person" at this point, if you understand what I'm getting at there - from Nemesis would probably not have someone bat an eye at it.

 

Given AE is "fiction" and in game-reality we have alternate universes and such, *depending on how someone's used* even a more recent person might be OK. Using Macarthur? Explore what happened in Praetoria in his time. Even Manson... say there's someone who wants, for whatever reason, to cause chaos, but in this alternate dimension people love Chuck's Choice flower shop and he's peaceful and *nothing* like he was in our dimension? It might be a little weird feeling as you go back to save that version from being turned into how he was here, but it's also a few steps removed from everything. If that makes sense.

 

 

As far as GM guidelines? I *suspect* you'll run into "We can't give specific lines not to cross, because people will get RIGHT up to that line." (As well as .. well, it is, in part, a sort of vague, "we'll know it when we see it," and case-by-case judgement.)

[Glacier Peak]

When in doubt, give a GM a shout. 

[Techwright]

1 hour ago, Greycat said:

 an army of... Harrisses... Harrisi?

 

LOL for the collective word guessing.  😁

 

 

1 hour ago, Greycat said:

As far as GM guidelines? I *suspect* you'll run into "We can't give specific lines not to cross, because people will get RIGHT up to that line." (As well as .. well, it is, in part, a sort of vague, "we'll know it when we see it," and case-by-case judgement.)

 

Good point.  ⭐

[cranebump]

Welllll...I personally haven't used specific people in any of my arcs. But I did create one that featured a parody of certain types of "news organizations." Turns out the talking head* that was spewing anti-superhero sentiment was just a tool for the actual string pullers/power brokers. 

 

Not that my that would mirror anything in real life...at all...:-)

 

*

Spoiler

Whose name just happened to be Tucker Hannity.

 

Edited August 19 by cranebump

[Lazarillo]

8 hours ago, mechahamham said:

When people ask about what the name/likeness rules mean in chat, I usually respond with something like 'No real people. No religion. No politics.'

Probably around the same place they go with it as it applies to characters: "We're gonna tell you not to as a CYA, but it's not something GMs are gonna take action on."

[High_Beam]

3 hours ago, Greycat said:

Abe Lincoln - who's almost more a cultural icon than "person" at this point

Cultural Icon you say?

 

[mechahamham]

3 hours ago, Greycat said:

Going back to save Abe Lincoln - who's almost more a cultural icon than "person" at this point, if you understand what I'm getting at there - from Nemesis would probably not have someone bat an eye at it.

 

The newer Dr. Who series just don't do it for me, but I read that there was an episode in the newest season in which a young Paul McCartney and John Lennon were minor characters.

 

John Lennon falls into that 'cultural icon' category, and, due to his untimely death in 1980, predates a significant portion of the CoH playerbase.

 

However, people closely related to Mr. Lennon are still alive and occasionally make still make headlines and youtube videos. John's widow, Yoko Ono, is 91. His songwriting partner, Paul McCartney, is 82.

 

Presumably, the BBC got permission from Sir Paul and from Ms. Ono to use those likeness in that Dr. Who episode.

 

This is the unusual case where someone is both a historical figure, but also still weighs on the present. I could see a GM having trouble deciding how to handle a time travel involving him.

[GM Crumpet]

The general rule is nobody who died when someone now is still alive. So we go roughly 70 years from death or post World War 2. If anyone over 70 is playing, welcome and I'm glad to see you. I know I'll still be playing at 70 😛 

 

There is also the infamy rule. Nobody who is an awful individual is generally allowed. So Hitler, Mussolini, Vlad the Impaler, Caligula etc. People who's crimes were so horrific their infamy will never die.

 

One more we don't generally allow is religious figures from current religions. So no Mohammed, no Allah, No Yahweh, no Jesus, no Buddha, etc. The only exception for Jesus is if it's an actual name as pronounced Haysoos by Spanish speaking people. I know a Jesus and didn't know that was the spelling for years 🙂 

 

Also, though tangential and not what the OP asked, don't pin your religious or political flags to your mast. Those just cause issues. We don't care who you vote for or worship, or what your affiliations are, we prefer you to keep those private and out of the game.

 

I'm sure I've probably missed something, but those are the criteria I look at when I generic someone. Nobody currently alive, nobody who died less than 70 odd years ago, no iconic religious figures, nobody who's crimes have gone down in history for their foulness and scale. 

[mechahamham]

3 minutes ago, GM Crumpet said:

One more we don't generally allow is religious figures from current religions. So no Mohammed, no Allah, No Yahweh, no Jesus, no Buddha, etc. The only exception for Jesus is if it's an actual name as pronounced Haysoos by Spanish speaking people. I know a Jesus and didn't know that was the spelling for years 🙂

 

Thank you for the clarification, Crumpet! This is EXACTLY what I wanted to know!

 

I know of several Hispanic people in my part of the country who are named Jesus. A lot of them go by 'Jessie' when speaking English.

[GM Crumpet]

As for player created AE, as long as they are NPC's and it's part of a time travel plot we tend to allow more leeway. Stopping Nemesis going back in time to assassinate Elvis before he became famous and having to rescue him and lead him out to safety? I don't have a problem with that. Going back in time to stop the 5th column giving Hitler modern weapons and meeting Hitler? Give him a slap for me. Time travel exists in CoH lore, and as long as the scenario is appropriate I think it could be fun.

 

edit

I'd have a problem with a more modern idea though. Going back in time to assassinate a current political leader (mentioning no names) would be problematic. Keep it old, keep it historical. Don't make it too modern.

Edited August 18 by GM Crumpet

[Black Zot]

27 minutes ago, GM Crumpet said:

There is also the infamy rule. Nobody who is an awful individual is generally allowed. So Hitler, Mussolini, Vlad the Impaler, Caligula etc. People who's crimes were so horrific their infamy will never die.

 

 

Which is almost a shame when you think about it.  An AE mission where you mow down a horde of "real" historical villains would see quite a bit of play.

[Jacktar]

Bah youngsters…….75 and nearer 76 and still ingame every day 🕺🏼🕺🏼👨🏻‍🦳😀

[GM Crumpet]

46 minutes ago, Jacktar said:

Bah youngsters…….75 and nearer 76 and still ingame every day 🕺🏼🕺🏼👨🏻‍🦳😀

 Hear that folks? There is no age limit on fun!! 

[GM Crumpet]

1 hour ago, Black Zot said:

 

Which is almost a shame when you think about it.  An AE mission where you mow down a horde of "real" historical villains would see quite a bit of play.

As I say, AE historicals have more leeway. "Doctor Time has kidnapped the most evil historical figures in history!! Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to defeat the evil army and use a modified version of the medical teleporter to send them back to their correct place in the time stream. This message will self destruct in 5 seconds"

 

I'd play it 😛

 

[momentarygrace]

22 hours ago, GM Crumpet said:

The general rule is nobody who died when someone now is still alive. So we go roughly 70 years from death or post World War 2. If anyone over 70 is playing, welcome and I'm glad to see you. I know I'll still be playing at 70 😛 

 

There is also the infamy rule. Nobody who is an awful individual is generally allowed. So Hitler, Mussolini, Vlad the Impaler, Caligula etc. People who's crimes were so horrific their infamy will never die.

 

One more we don't generally allow is religious figures from current religions. So no Mohammed, no Allah, No Yahweh, no Jesus, no Buddha, etc. The only exception for Jesus is if it's an actual name as pronounced Haysoos by Spanish speaking people. I know a Jesus and didn't know that was the spelling for years 🙂 

 

Also, though tangential and not what the OP asked, don't pin your religious or political flags to your mast. Those just cause issues. We don't care who you vote for or worship, or what your affiliations are, we prefer you to keep those private and out of the game.

 

I'm sure I've probably missed something, but those are the criteria I look at when I generic someone. Nobody currently alive, nobody who died less than 70 odd years ago, no iconic religious figures, nobody who's crimes have gone down in history for their foulness and scale. 

 

I had an MM who was a nurse, protected by soldier types she'd saved on various battlefields, I got Florence Knightingale for her name and then she was genericed. 

 

I appealed and was told 'she's a real person'.

 

Florence Nightengale was a real person ...who died in 1910.

 

Recently I saw someone else with Florence Nightingale in game. 

 

Yes, that's butthurt you detect in my emotionless typed characters.  -_-

 

[GM Crumpet]

1 hour ago, momentarygrace said:

 

I had an MM who was a nurse, protected by soldier types she'd saved on various battlefields, I got Florence Knightingale for her name and then she was genericed. 

 

I appealed and was told 'she's a real person'.

 

Florence Nightengale was a real person ...who died in 1910.

 

Recently I saw someone else with Florence Nightingale in game. 

 

Yes, that's butthurt you detect in my emotionless typed characters.  -_-

 

that's very odd. How long ago was that?

 

[Indystruck]

I would generally go with no later than any fictionalized versions of real people that appear in the actual lore. Which I think stops around Korean War era for CoX? Might be misremembering.

[Techwright]

On 8/18/2024 at 2:58 PM, GM Crumpet said:

As for player created AE, as long as they are NPC's and it's part of a time travel plot we tend to allow more leeway.

 

First off, thank you for such clear statements to aid our understanding these things.  I'd like to push one point just a little if I may. 

 

What's been said so far is in regards to characters with clear polarization:  clear good, clear evil.  What happens when there are blurred lines?  Many historical freedom fighters, for example, are considered both patriot and terrorist, depending on whose report one reads.  They may have even done some terrible things to aid an otherwise good cause.  How would grey area characters be handled?

 

 

 

Edited August 20 by Techwright

[Greycat]

Just now, Techwright said:

 How would grey area characters be handled?

 

Two arcs. *nods* 🙂

 

Honestly I'd lean more into "depends on what/how extreme it is?" I mean, we have plenty of grey area "official" characters, especially with Praetoria.

[GM Crumpet]

7 minutes ago, Greycat said:

 

Two arcs. *nods* 🙂

 

Honestly I'd lean more into "depends on what/how extreme it is?" I mean, we have plenty of grey area "official" characters, especially with Praetoria.

I agree. We have many characters in lore that have complicated backgrounds. Blue Steel, Scirocco, Ghost Widow, Manticore. Some did bad things and became hero's to make up for their mistakes, others are freedom fighters who have done awful things they felt justified in doing even though they regret them.

 

As for real life individuals, the game isn't really deep enough to do much nuance. It's very much Bam! Pow! Kablooie! in the best possible way. I think people are overthinking it. Have fun, write your stories, use your history to add flavour and depth, but ultimately you'll get the people who enjoy reading the text and dialogue, and you'll get people who'll just want to wander about thumping people. Be respectful to the truth of the individual, but don't feel too tied to the history. There are many untold stories of the worlds villains and hero's. Napoleon wasn't short, he was average height. Hitler liked cats. Catherine the great died after having a stroke while on the toilet, not crushed to death in the embrace of her horse. Countess Bathory never actually bathed in the blood of virgins (though she was a vile woman who committed the most atrocious crimes). Stories are told and not all of them are true. They might be in your AE arc though 🙂 

[JuggernautJ]

It seems it isn't just individuals but (current) events that can lead to one being "genericed."
My toon Pandemicide was genericed (oddly enough, Pestilence was allowed) as I assume other names which could be considered hurtful would be... things like Genocide or (perhaps) an oblique reference to January 6th...

 

I pulled the name "Pandemicide" off a TV headline and thought it apropos to a poison defender but didn't think to consider how it might make someone who'd lost a relative to Covid feel. I regret using that name and causing anyone hurt... but my point is (I guess) you never know if someone will be hurt by given name... it is probably better to err on the side of caution.

[Greycat]

7 minutes ago, JuggernautJ said:

It seems it isn't just individuals but (current) events that can lead to one being "genericed."
My toon Pandemicide was genericed (oddly enough, Pestilence was allowed) as I assume other names which could be considered hurtful would be... things like Genocide or (perhaps) an oblique reference to January 6th...

 

I pulled the name "Pandemicide" off a TV headline and thought it apropos to a poison defender but didn't think to consider how it might make someone who'd lost a relative to Covid feel. I regret using that name and causing anyone hurt... but my point is (I guess) you never know if someone will be hurt by given name... it is probably better to err on the side of caution.

 

Yep, you hit one of the nails on the head there - *current* (or "recent history") events.

 

"Pandemicide" from what I can see is coined *specifically* to refer to recent political actions that were related to Covid. (Essentially it would be... well, like naming your character "Covid Man.") "Pestilence" is a much more broad term that isn't related to one specific disease or timeframe. "Genocide"... is questionable,  -  but it'd have a better chance of making it past than, say, "Auschwitz."  (Actually, looking it up, Genocide's the name of a DC villain, so it'd probably get generic'd for that either way.)

 

Common Cold ... I think I've seen taken, Spanish Flu is old enough to pr...

 

*takes  a moment to consider an alt, Spanish Lou.... wait, finish post*

 

...probably not get a second look, AIDS man would probably get their name hammered fast.

 

So, yeah. Err on the side of caution.

[momentarygrace]

18 hours ago, GM Crumpet said:

that's very odd. How long ago was that?

 

 

April 2020.

 

In order to provide full disclosure, the character's original name was Nurse Rona, which was genericed because (I assume) of coronavirus. I shrugged and thought, okay, and named her Florence Knightingale using the Knight spelling to emphasize a quality. She was intended as a tribute character to honor the medical profession who were absolutely going down in history as real heroes as they should. The second knock took me entirely by surprise and I appealed it, to be told "that's a real person".

 

On her third renaming I just used Heroic Anonymous and more or less gritted my teeth and remade her same costume - medical, with a mask - and kept her bio. But yeah, it did leave a sour taste.