A re-look at Stealth going away when you do something

[DrRocket]

Just something to think about...

 

As I am in full stealth and attempt to attack a mob, I go off stealth, and not much to my surprise the mob turns and attacks me before my idiotic animation goes off!

 

While I don't have a problem with the mechanic when doing glowies, it should very much not be for attacks on mobs or players (PvP), the stealth should go away after the attack has hit or missed, I should be able to sneak in and assassin the "surgeon" before the entire platoon gets their attacks on me first! That is the mechanic, I would like to have "fixed"

 

Any thoughts, suggestions, advice?

 

As always, please let me learn from this, don't just give me an emoticon, say no, or what not,  please give some detail of why it is such a bad suggestion so I can learn.

 

Thank you

 

Regards

[biostem]

1 hour ago, DrRocket said:

Any thoughts, suggestions, advice?

The problem is, as far as the game is concerned, the power *has* hit or missed the moment you activate the power - the animation and enemy reacting as merely secondary effects.  That being said, I, personally, would like to see some variable amount of "reaction time", which would be an actual pause or delay, before enemies can actually respond to your attacks...

[ThatGuyCDude]

5 hours ago, biostem said:

The problem is, as far as the game is concerned, the power *has* hit or missed the moment you activate the power - the animation and enemy reacting as merely secondary effects.  That being said, I, personally, would like to see some variable amount of "reaction time", which would be an actual pause or delay, before enemies can actually respond to your attacks...

I agree that the inclusion of enemy reaction time for unstealthing to represent surprise would be a welcome addition.  I wonder how the devs would go about coding it, though... a high-priority brief animation feint attack that does nothing and has a VERY long cooldown, to stall them for about one attack?  Some sort of brief placate into taunt aura when Stealth is canceled?  *Shrug*

[biostem]

11 minutes ago, ThatGuyCDude said:

I agree that the inclusion of enemy reaction time for unstealthing to represent surprise would be a welcome addition.  I wonder how the devs would go about coding it, though... a high-priority brief animation feint attack that does nothing and has a VERY long cooldown, to stall them for about one attack?  Some sort of brief placate into taunt aura when Stealth is canceled?  *Shrug*

Well, I have to assume that there is *some* coding that transitions them from not detecting an enemy to actually engaging them, so a generic "pause some random fraction-second before reacting" could be inserted.  The question is whether that would interfere with other aspects of the game...

[Lazarillo]

8 hours ago, biostem said:

The problem is, as far as the game is concerned, the power *has* hit or missed the moment you activate the power - the animation and enemy reacting as merely secondary effects.  That being said, I, personally, would like to see some variable amount of "reaction time", which would be an actual pause or delay, before enemies can actually respond to your attacks...

FWIW, on Stalkers, if Assassin's Strike misses while stealthed, the stealth doesn't break, and if it does hit, enemies still don't perceive you until it does (after which there's a very brief Terrorize effect to simulate that very same delayed reaction), so what the OP is suggesting, I think, isn't outside the bounds of things we've seen in game in-theory.  That said, whether it would be non-trivial to implement whatever AS does on a wider scale, or whether that would be remotely something close to "balanced" is left as an exercise for the reader.

[biostem]

13 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

FWIW, on Stalkers, if Assassin's Strike misses while stealthed, the stealth doesn't break

Isn't AS specially coded to have that behavior?  If so, trying to retrofit every other power to behave the same way might not be feasible...

[Frozen Burn]

Stalkers get this because they are Stalkers - it's their schtick and they are "experts" at assassinations.  I do not think the ability to be able to attack and assassinate (even without the increased damage buffs for the initial strike like Stalkers get - should be ported to anyone who has a certain level of invisibility.  And the majority of my toons have invis level stealth and I rarely play Stalkers.  

 

Just like the Op is okay with stealth breaking when clicking a glowie... which that happens because you're "doing something," the same can be said for us "non-assassins / stalkers" in that you're winding up your punch, slash, stab, blast, shot, whatever - and that movement does alert foes.  

 

Also, having pretty much all my characters with invis level stealth and across all ATs, and doing exactly as the Op says in trying to "assassinate" a critical foe first... it is a split second of animation before the hit lands, damage is done, and you generally succeed killing / mezzing / eliminating the target anyway.  

 

So, again, I don't see this request as needed, and it takes a bit away from what makes Stalkers so great.  It also takes a bit away from the /Ninja sets (blasters, scrappers, and sentinels) that get critical hit damage when striking from stealth. 

 

Pool power Stealth, or stealth garnered from means of stacking non-stalker / Ninjitsu powers and Stealth IOs, and through other means - should not have access to buffed "assassination" attempts - imo (even if it's just buffing the timing of the hit with the stealth break - again splitting hairs over a split second of animation).  That ability should stay with Stalkers and /Ninjas.  

 

...That being said... I wouldn't argue or cry if it was implemented anyway.  😄  

 

 

Edited August 21 by Frozen Burn

[srmalloy]

14 hours ago, biostem said:

That being said, I, personally, would like to see some variable amount of "reaction time", which would be an actual pause or delay, before enemies can actually respond to your attacks...

It's not the instant response to an attack launched from stealth, but whether the attack is visibly noticeable. Fire, Ice, Electricity -- most of the attacks in most powersets draw a highly visible line of special effects between the attacker and the target to tell the spawn you're shooting into where the attack is coming from. Some of them are inherently less noticeable -- except for powers like Full Auto, Flamethrower, and Ignite, the sound of Assault Rifle attacks going off aren't going to pinpoint the shooter, and linking a hero off over there waving their hand with a coccoon of rock suddenly appearing around your buddy and crushing them is probably too much of a stretch for villains.

 

And there's a similar situation with regard to ambushes. One of the things that nobody notices about ambushes is the completely undetectable stage ninja that slips up behind you to plant a tracking device on your character just before the ambush spawns, so no matter where you go, the ambush knows where to go to find you. At best, an ambush should know where you are when the ambush is triggered, so that it can proceed to where you were at that time, and from there, if they haven't stumbled across you on their way there, have to look around to actually find you. I can see the ambush being given increased range on their detection ability, so if they, say, hear blasting and yelling from a couple rooms away, they can charge off in that direction, but knowing exactly where you are moment-to-moment if you activate invisibility and stealthily scoot for the exit seems excessive.

 

Ultimately, it comes down to game balance, and reworking all of the attacks in the game to determine individually what their originating visibility is (i.e., how noticeable it is where the attack is coming from) is probably going to take way too much time, as well as getting too far down in the weeds. And the amount of rework necessary to make ambushes both smart enough to search for their target while taking away their omniscience about where that target actually is will almost certainly consume an excessive amount of programming time. There are already a few ambushes where the ambush group runs to the presumed location of their target and then just stands there if they don't immediately spot their target, and I can see giving them an increased spotting range, but a wholesale rework of ambushes to make them more 'realistic' is beyond what we can expect to see in the forseeable future.

[lemming]

As someone currently leveling up a stalker, just a bit of clarification.

If I use assassinate and miss, nothing.

I I hit, everyone within visible range turns and fires, unless their in the AOE of the fear effect, or my stun field.  (and they hit)

So, pretty much the same if I snipe someone as a blaster.

 

What people are seeing that the mobs have much faster reaction times between perception and attacking.  You'll see similar if you just drop stealth while in the middle of a group.

[ThatGuyCDude]

I forgot about the Stalker terrorize, it's been a while since I played mine.

I think that's the way to handle it, as a general buff to stealth and a doubled buff to stalkers: make the player drop a 'typically standard perception' radius (of 50 feet so bosses, snipers, and turrets would ignore it) brief terrorize on dropping stealth, just enough to make the mobs go 'Oh!'... and make the stalker version triggered by dropping Hide more effective.  The current stalker Terrorize is a Mag 5 with a 25% chance to trigger within 30 feet of the Assassinate target, so that could become the unstealth baseline and Stalkers could get a buff to 100% within 100 feet (so only snipers aren't startled, and then only if they're out-of-range). The stalker version also currently lasts 8 seconds, whereas standard stealth could get by with--say--2.

The game currently handles this as a rider to the Stealth Assassin Strike pseudo pet (it's a debuff called "Demoralized").  I wonder if similar pseudo-pets could be spawned as a PBAoE on the character when a stealth power is suppressed.  To make it fair, have game mobs drop a similar terrorize on the player when they drop stealth.

Edited August 21 by ThatGuyCDude

[Enamel_32]

Yeah... I think this is something that can likely be tuned per individual stealth power. Especially if there's already a power in the game that works differently. I'm sure most of them are currently configured to cancel the stealth effect once you've "attacked" an enemy, but this seems to equate to activating the attack power and probably that power succeeding on its accuracy roll.

If we look at City of Data, we can see that a stealth power like Shinobi is flagged as canceling the effect when AttackedOther, Sleep, Stunned, Held, and MissionObjectClick. Contrast that with Hide, you'll see that it's only set up to cancel the stealth when Stunned, Held, or Sleep are active effects. The stealth is instead suppressed, when AttackedOther, MissionObjectClick, or Damaged. I'm not entirely sure what the difference between canceled and suppressed is, but my educated guess is that's the reason the powers work differently.
Edit: there's probably another tag that could be used here for dealing damage, rather than attacking, as well. The game's got all kinds of parameters to utilize.

Edited August 21 by Enamel_32

[Greycat]

 

4 hours ago, srmalloy said:

And there's a similar situation with regard to ambushes. One of the things that nobody notices about ambushes is the completely undetectable stage ninja that slips up behind you to plant a tracking device on your character just before the ambush spawns, so no matter where you go, the ambush knows where to go to find you. At best, an ambush should know where you are when the ambush is triggered, so that it can proceed to where you were at that time, and from there, if they haven't stumbled across you on their way there, have to look around to actually find you. I can see the ambush being given increased range on their detection ability, so if they, say, hear blasting and yelling from a couple rooms away, they can charge off in that direction, but knowing exactly where you are moment-to-moment if you activate invisibility and stealthily scoot for the exit seems excessive.

 

 

There are actually three types of ambush behaviour I've noted:

 

1. Goes to preset location. Usually if you find something or rescue someone. Avoidable by ... walking slightly to the side and watching them run by, even if not stealthed.

 

2. Goes to player-location-on-triggering. More noticeable with waves. While they act *much* like #1, they'll end up at different locations - either where you were at a timer, where you were when it triggered, or where you were when the last enemy (apparently) of the last wave defeated or the body vanished.

 

3. The heat seeker. The ones that hunt you down no matter what, follow through elevators, if a teammate dies and comes back they run to the door JUST to kill them again.  Ignores stealth.

 

(I *want* to say there's one that's kind of a mix of 2 and 3, that'll run to a location *then* start hunting, but they're a little hard to determine... they're very easy to miss if they're doing this.)

[lemming]

11 minutes ago, Greycat said:

I *want* to say there's one that's kind of a mix of 2 and 3, that'll run to a location *then* start hunting,

Yea, there's a type that will run where you were, then run where you were when then got there.

 

Sometimes, they'll be able to attack, sometimes they just keep running where you are until you drop stealth.

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, Greycat said:

 

 

There are actually three types of ambush behaviour I've noted:

 

1. Goes to preset location. Usually if you find something or rescue someone. Avoidable by ... walking slightly to the side and watching them run by, even if not stealthed.

 

2. Goes to player-location-on-triggering. More noticeable with waves. While they act *much* like #1, they'll end up at different locations - either where you were at a timer, where you were when it triggered, or where you were when the last enemy (apparently) of the last wave defeated or the body vanished.

 

3. The heat seeker. The ones that hunt you down no matter what, follow through elevators, if a teammate dies and comes back they run to the door JUST to kill them again.  Ignores stealth.

 

(I *want* to say there's one that's kind of a mix of 2 and 3, that'll run to a location *then* start hunting, but they're a little hard to determine... they're very easy to miss if they're doing this.)

Like @lemming said, there is that 4th type you mentioned, however, you still missed one. The heat seeker ambush type is actually 2 types, the first one ignores stealth, always chasing your character and attacking, which is the least common version of this ambush type in my experience. And the other is the one that chases your character down no matter where you go, but does not attack until your stealth is overcome/dropped.

 

So 5 types of ambushes:

1) Just goes to preset location.

2) Goes to PC location at time of triggering.

3) Goes to PC location at time of triggering, but then does a little bit of searching. (Least common type of ambush in my experience. Never seems to wander far from triggered location. Though there is one that keeps moving from point to point to point following your character's last tracked position.)

4) Goes to PC location no matter where PC goes.

5) Goes to PC location no matter where PC goes and attacks when in range even if PC is using Hide or layered stealth options.

 

Edited August 21 by Rudra
Edited to add last sentence in parenthesis.

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, lemming said:

Yea, there's a type that will run where you were, then run where you were when then got there.

 

Sometimes, they'll be able to attack, sometimes they just keep running where you are until you drop stealth.

 

Those ambushes are a lot more entertaining if you're listening to Yakety Sax.

[DrRocket]

I think is funny, when I snipe at extended range from stealth, and the mobs get to attack me before the snipe gets off...

 

regards

[Glacier Peak]

2 hours ago, DrRocket said:

I think is funny, when I snipe at extended range from stealth, and the mobs get to attack me before the snipe gets off...

 

regards

Add range enhancements to your snipe.

[srmalloy]

23 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

Add range enhancements to your snipe.

Range enhancements and Boost Range; unless I'm doing something like 'See that dot?' shooting, such as from Imperious north across the E/W valley to the courtyard on the other side in Cimerora, the mobs will almost always react. And ask me how I found out that the Malta Gunslingers with their pistols can outrange Snipe+Boost Range. This is shooting from a distance in excess of 250 yards.

 

Although when I am doing the really extreme-range shooting, with some mobs it can be amusing that I take one shot, and the spawn is all "Fred fell down. How about that.", and it's not until I take the second shot that they aggro on me. Shooting like this is how I found out (while going after Council war walkers for the badge) that there is a maximum range for badge credit -- IIRC, it's about 210 yards -- and if you're shooting from farther out, you'll still get the defeat message and XP/inf/drops, but you won't increment the defeat count for badges.

[Wavicle]

On 8/20/2024 at 3:37 PM, DrRocket said:

Just something to think about...

 

As I am in full stealth and attempt to attack a mob, I go off stealth, and not much to my surprise the mob turns and attacks me before my idiotic animation goes off!

 

While I don't have a problem with the mechanic when doing glowies, it should very much not be for attacks on mobs or players (PvP), the stealth should go away after the attack has hit or missed, I should be able to sneak in and assassin the "surgeon" before the entire platoon gets their attacks on me first! That is the mechanic, I would like to have "fixed"

 

Any thoughts, suggestions, advice?

 

As always, please let me learn from this, don't just give me an emoticon, say no, or what not,  please give some detail of why it is such a bad suggestion so I can learn.

 

Thank you

 

Regards

 

Play a Stalker. That's how it works for them.

I think Arsenal Control and Illusion Control might also work that way. Maybe there's a couple others? Not sure.

[DrRocket]

On 9/13/2024 at 5:19 PM, Glacier Peak said:

Add range enhancements to your snipe.

I did, they still can hit me... Funny ah?
 

[Glacier Peak]

20 minutes ago, DrRocket said:

I did, they still can hit me... Funny ah?

Ah, I didn't realize you wanted to be able to attack an enemy or mob, but not to be attacked by them. That would be insanely overpowered in CoH, and really in any game.