Traps left taking a knee while the world rushes by - Possible proposals to update traps for the current game.

[Vulgaris]

It's next nearest neighbor sets conceptually in terms of function are the new(ish) arsenal set, and the much older trick arrow which utilizes a gun and bow respectively of course to deploy patches and effects. You have more range and control over their placement and it is also pseudo pet heavy as well in the form of it's patches and zones. But it's much less of a "player stuck in place" power set and the deploy time for each is much zippier and satisfying. Mind you there's no turret equivalent either but that's the strongest outlier/difference imo functionally.

 

I took the time to fire up two characters I have to faff about and compare the differences of animation time VS effects to try and be more objective as well about it all.

 

The previously cited power sets are far less damage of course compared to the potential of traps but it is also less awkward to get your kit out and doing work with regularity. In addition traps is IMO more or less feeling it's age as a piecemeal cryptic co "Get COV out the door" launch design philosophy set given it's a set that has 3 transplanted powers with behaviors barely tweaked. (web grenade, caltrops, and trip mine itself is also just repurposed /devices kit).

 

 Traps you have to be front and center and in the middle of it all to get the most mileage out of it or have setup time which is fair and fits the theme of course. But in certain aspects it feels like ranges and radius's for things like the trip mine itself are lackluster and you have to wrestle the power set and face check a lot of things to utilize 3-4 of your big ticket powers.

 

The change to the final power to make it a temporal bomb is a nice one but it still hinges on the slow stop and kneel down and drop it at your feet style of deployment.

Traps as it stands can feel like a set that feels fundamentally like it has T9 style animation taxes on several of it's powers for no real offset for this.

For traps the following powers require stopping and stooping to deploy in one spot where you stand:

Triage beacon (And triage beacon itself remains a really uninspired of it's time ho hum power on it's own but if we're going to be complaining about that we might as well address spirit tree too as they are fundamentally the same power.... Which is interesting given the identical base values of a defender primary/corr secondary VS a control primary one but that's besides the point)
Acid Mortar (Which could be understandable as it is quite strong and it rewards clever placement and planning)
Poison trap

Trip Mine
Temporal Bomb


And the longest most easily interrupted being trip mine. I want to love trip mine, I want to embrace trip mine. I like the idea of a out of the norm defender/corr kit or MM secondary that just helps you make things go boom.... In theory.  But I speak mostly about the defender and corr ones here. As MM's behavior is different given you can affix it to your minions.

Hypothetically you could deploy several and it's not quite balanced like a nuke as a result but it still suffers from what feels like an eternity in the current "Go go go" pace of the game. And this part is subjective experience more than the rest - Their range feels incredibly puny and awkward to setup still as you practically have to teleport an enemy dead center of a clump to make them all possibly hit even if you get the time to deploy a field of them. And it's a pure damage power with no secondary effect present when a few pure damage AT's powers and nukes even carry with them at least a -def or so after effect which I always found an odd design choice...

 

All that pre-amble aside though.

 

My SWEEPING suggestion to make the set feel a bit more dynamic and less rooted is changing the kneel and plant animations to some sort of throw and deploy for the bombs/traps that previously required the knee. (You could still have an arming time of course to balance so you can't just cheese in PVP and whip them at people all day like you're grenade pitch garry) and maybe giving acid mortar and triage beacon a teleport/catch up mechanic like bringing the electric support sets dome over to your current position. To encourage building for more than just +recharge to constantly redeploy. 

Alternatively if that is distasteful and too much code wrangling- Subbing the knee for their already half present robotics style "crate drop/teleporter call in" deployment at range functionality at the bare minimum. So they stay where you put them like current behavior but you have more freedom of movement and placement and open up better proactive planning - So you don't have to be in the mob mosh pit to do every little thing.

 

 And as far as trip mine goes? I'll get a little more opinionated here. It's a set devoted to traps and gadgets VS it being a pool or afterthought set. Let's give it a ooo aaa shiny defining theme type power like the new sets get. And it's the second to last power that has a decade of being established as something goes boom/things regret stepping on them. 
Tweak the recharge longer to account for it and make it a stack o' mines you whip out to make a mini minefield that makes a nice satisfying ominous beep when they're armed to skip the foreplay of one at a timing it or wholesale change it to something like a deployable harmful laser grid. Give it some sort of pizazz!

[biostem]

To be honest, I don't really care about the "take a knee" animation;  It's the relatively long recharge time for relatively little usefulness, for powers like triage beacon.  Maybe change it to a HoT and/or have it also provide some recovery.  Additionally, while shield drone does provide slightly more defense than dispersion bubble, the pet is quite fragile and has a hard time keeping up with you.  It could stand to be made a little tougher, or perhaps have it knock down or stun enemies that are near to it when it explodes. 

[TygerDarkstorm]

Just a minor correction: The traps T9 (Detonator) attaches to MM henchmen, not Trip Mine. Trip Mine is the same across all AT's.

 

In general, I would love to see Traps get a similar treatment that Trick Arrow did. I love, love the Traps powerset, but it is definitely a bit of a relic and sometimes requires you to have certain things like stealth and fold space to get the most out of your traps kit.

 

I'm also in the camp of not minding the take a knee animation.

[Uun]

The easy fix for Trip Mine would be to allow it to accept Interrupt Time enhancements (or replace it with the Devices version). 

 

I agree that Triage Beacon is lackluster, but I'm not sure what to do with it. Nature/Lifegiving Spores is a HoT and +end with a 4s recharge and I still find it skippable. That said, making Triage more like Lifegiving Spores would still be an improvement.

 

The other power that could use some love is Seeker Drones. It does too many things and none of them particularly well. My recommendation would be to increase the tohit debuff and eliminate the damage. The damage is too small to be useful and deceives people into slotting %dmg procs that do nothing. 

[shortguy on indom]

• HAVING A SLOWER PLAYSTYLE MYSELF, VERY MUCH LIKE PLAYING WITH TRAPS PLAYERS.
• CAN UNDERSTAND TRAPS WITH A FAST MOVING TEAM COULD BE CHALLENGING.  
• HOPEFULLY THE TAUNTER AND TRAPS PLAYER ARE PLAYING SYMBIOTICALLY TO MAKE THINGS BIT EASIER...
• SAME CAN BE SAID FOR AN AGGRO PLAYER THAT DRAGS THE GROUP(S) TO WHERE THE MORTARS/AoE's/PBOES ARE LOCATED.
• SOMETIMES ITS THE OTHER WAY AROUND.
• WHATEVER THE CASE IT TAKES A FEW GROUPS FOR THE TAUNTER/AGGROER TO FIGURE IT OUT.  THEN FUN FUN.
• YALL KNOW YOUR CRAFT, WOULD SUPPORT ANY IMPROVEMENTS.

[Doomguide2005]

I think a fair number of folks are truly unaware that the Mortar itself has a 100ft range.  You do not need to plant it underfoot within the mob.   It will fire on targets at a distance.

[Trickshooter]

I don't feel Traps is suffering due to needing to toe-bomb a few of the powers. They're pretty potent already and there's good synergy built in to the set to allow you to still be active. The only power I've ever had an issue with (besides Time Bomb, and good riddance) is Triage Beacon. If I could make one suggestion, it would be either:

A) Let Triage Beacon follow you around like FFG

OR

B) Change the +Regen to a pulsing AoE Heal every 4 seconds.

 

+Regen tends to be more useful than just straight Healing, but not on a stationary power. There are very few encounters in the game where a stationary +150% Regen for 90 seconds is super useful. If Triage Beacon has to stay a +Regen power, then it either needs to follow you around or the duration of the actual buff needs to be increased to like 30 seconds so that you can leave it behind and still have some kind of benefit from it. If it has to stay stationary, it would be much more useful as upfront Healing. The game moves too fast for stationary +Regen.

[Vulgaris]

It is interesting how just about everyone agrees that triage beacon could use a face lift even if they disagree with the flow and speed of the set as it stands in the current meta. It is very odd as well IMO still to have a static value healing power that does not change for the AT it's on and is sort of a non player/non factor in the set despite it being available for defenders and such too imo.

Also thanks for the trip mine correction - I have only tried the set on defenders and corrupter so I did admit I was not sure if the MM interaction was the T9 or it.
I am mostly just frustrated because I like the set thematically but it feels it's age and design issues especially hard these days given how much of it is very kitchen sink as well.

[Doomguide2005]

My self I almost always take Triage Beacon.  I treat it like a circumstantial or niche power and don't use it until it becomes a static fight or I consider it as a mule.  I'll use it in a static circumstance.  I've also heard/read that some of the heal procs can potentially proc on individual teammates but haven't taken the time to try it out and see what happens.  I'll frequently be able to get 2 out.  That's not an insignificant boost to regeneration especially for support characters (just shy of 300% per Beacon or about 12.5 hp/sec/Beacon) an amount almost equal to doubling my lvl 50's Ill/traps passive regen.  Now could that be buffed without going too far?  Well yes, I don't think a small buff would be too much considering its immobile nature.

 

Wow looking at the build again in Mids and apparently it doesn't stack for the same caster ... ugg.  It's still decent but that definitely hurts its overall value

Edited September 6 by Doomguide2005

[SeraphimKensai]

Need an executive summary as reading 12 paragraphs is quite the chore given time demands.

 

Sure traps could use some work to speed up placement to be able to keep up with a team.

[Vulgaris]

40 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Need an executive summary as reading 12 paragraphs is quite the chore given time demands.

 

Sure traps could use some work to speed up placement to be able to keep up with a team.

 

I like being thorough even if I get rambly.  Everything below the bold text is the actual pitch VS pondering design choices and highlighting all the powers that are on the stop and wait side.

[Psyonico]

2 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

apparently it doesn't stack for the same caster ...

The caster is the beacon itself, so 2x beacons = 2x regen

[Doomguide2005]

1 hour ago, Psyonico said:

The caster is the beacon itself, so 2x beacons = 2x regen

Yes, except I watched the 2nd cast replace the first shortly after that post in game.  Going to look at it further tomorrow and make sure of what I thought I was seeing.

[Razor Cure]

Given how Barrier Reef manages to be a flying (haha, cause of course reefs fly!) and pretty zippy..doesnt really make sense to have FFG still crawl along.

Triage Beacon could (wishful thinking) also fly or at least be mobile.

Total dream, but having Acid Mortar mobile would be amazing too..but perhaps too hopeful.

Just messing in Mids and on a Beam/Traps Corr, both Overcharge and Temporal Bomb (I didnt even KNOW the power now did recovery and an enemy slow!) are 'extreme' damage. Only Overcharge does 290ish with Bomb is 120. A High damage attack is higher! Also the other Mine is Superior and higher, unslotted.

I  know the 'in melee' playstyle is Traps thing, but maybe making the bombs 'throwable' like an AoE could work. But they it might just ruin the playstyle.

 

[Jacke]

I think what Traps needs most of all is its Power's Debuffing Pets/Pseudopets to inherit the Caster's Global Modifiers.  Right now, like most Pets, they don't inherit the Caster's Global Modifiers, most painfully not getting any Global Accuracy or Global ToHit.  Using Acid Mortar to get -Def on a target will help, but the Player can't control who Acid Mortar attacks.  As it stands, I strongly suggest any Traps builds to use my 2 Pets guidelines for any of the Debuff Powers:

• Slot the Power with ED-capped Accuracy.
• If critical Pet Powers have less than 1.2 Base Accuracy, needs either Tactics (even just a Base Slot of Tactics will do) or -Def on the target(s).

Else the Pets' Debuffs will miss too often.

 

 

[OverkillEngine]

22 hours ago, Uun said:

The easy fix for Trip Mine would be to allow it to accept Interrupt Time enhancements (or replace it with the Devices version). 

 

I agree that Triage Beacon is lackluster, but I'm not sure what to do with it. Nature/Lifegiving Spores is a HoT and +end with a 4s recharge and I still find it skippable. That said, making Triage more like Lifegiving Spores would still be an improvement.

 

The other power that could use some love is Seeker Drones. It does too many things and none of them particularly well. My recommendation would be to increase the tohit debuff and eliminate the damage. The damage is too small to be useful and deceives people into slotting %dmg procs that do nothing. 

 

Yeah I ended up dropping Trip Mine on my Arse/Traps Controller, since any situation where you want to use it, you are likely to be effectively unable to use it due to interrupts.

The set overall has three main issues:

* Ridiculously long animation times

* Lack of kit mobility
* Super long cooldowns

So you take forever to do your thing, can't react/move on the fly easily, and have massive downtime on your schtick even with heavy recharge slotting. The tradeoff is you are an nigh uncontested MVP in King of the Hill scenarios.

But that's not most of the content in the game.

[tidge]

I have no issues with the "take a knee" animation.

 

As @Jacke notes: the Pseudopets need to be slotted with Accuracy. I'm ok with this, because if they had a better base Accuracy most of them would become insanely powerful %proc bombs. I feel like this is just "one of those things" that Traps players need to learn, or need to accept from other players willing to explain it to them. 

 

My attitude on Triage Beacon is that this is the sort of power to take while leveling up, especially if the player can't afford enhancements for Defense or doesn't understand how to manage Regeneration. I think it is probably the worst of the low-level "healing" powers, but my opinion is that the current (2024-era) game deprioritizes all such powers. I'd only suggest a slight change: if Triage Beacon also boosted Recovery, I think it would be better (the blue bar is spent more commonly than the green bar) and I don't think it would be game breaking. (I still don't think I'd take it, but I can see a stronger case being made for taking it.)

 

My personal perception of Traps is this: I like it because I can skip so many powers in it. On my MM, I've skipped:

• T1 Web Grenade (fine for a ST immobilize, but such powers have such a limited utility compared to what other powers can do)
• T3 Triage Beacon, because it is a fast-moving world, and who takes damage at a rate such that more +Regeneration is an important consideration?
• T7 Seeker Drones (I feel that the "fire-and-forget" aspect of them works against both the Stun and the -ToHit)
• T8 Trip Mine (Personally I feel that trying to commit to a stationary potential source of damage narrows strategic options, also it takes slots better used elsewhere for MMs)
• T9 Detonator (I didn't take it before it was Detonator... I understand it was improved but it just doesn't fit my play style of "debuff and kill")

[Uun]

55 minutes ago, tidge said:

T9 Detonator (I didn't take it before it was Detonator... I understand it was improved but it just doesn't fit my play style of "debuff and kill")

I did a lot of testing of Detonator when the change was implemented. If "kill" is part of your play style, you really should try it. The current version puts out more damage than a blaster nuke. There's no delay or set up and it's insta-BOOM.

 

The in-game information and the information in Mid's, however, is inaccurate and very misleading. While Detonator accepts damage and accuracy enhancements (and Ranged AoE sets), these do NOTHING. The only enhancements that do anything are recharge, end reduction and range. Damage is determined by the slotting of the henchman targeted. This isn't new and is how the power always worked. Damage is also affected by the relative level of the henchman targeted. While the in-game info (and Mid's) shows damage increasing if you slot damage enhancements in Detonator, this information is false. Captain Powerhouse stated "I considered removing those accepted enhancements, but that would mean anyone using it for set bonuses would likely lose the set bonuses until they respeced and placed them somewhere else." See page 2 of the thread linked below.

 

 

[tidge]

I remember the discussions about Detonator... my play style is mostly GM hunting with my Traps MM, so for a "finishing" move it might work, but otherwise I simply don't have enough mental bandwidth to do the mental-math to optimize when/which henchman to go boom and juggle the bodyguard mode demands. 

 

My build is also super-tight in terms of chosen powers (see comments above about skipping so many Traps powers). I have one power I'd happily sacrifice, but it is a pre-req for the Fighting pool and there simply isn't another option (in my build) for Tough.

[Doomguide2005]

10 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

Yes, except I watched the 2nd cast replace the first shortly after that post in game.  Going to look at it further tomorrow and make sure of what I thought I was seeing.

Looks like it was just bad timing.  It looks like it simply disappeared as I cast the "second" one.  I've now used it (with more sleep on board as well) and there are in fact two Beacons showing.  Yay!  And that is also getting displayed in the combat attributes as well.  So yes, with sufficient recharge it will double up the regen bonus.

[srmalloy]

On 9/5/2024 at 7:42 AM, shortguy on indom said:

CAN UNDERSTAND TRAPS WITH A FAST MOVING TEAM COULD BE CHALLENGING.  

My Grav/Traps controller plays completely differently on teams than when solo, given the normal "rush rush rush" mode of most teams. Solo, it's almost lazy, and I take it as a bit of a failure if one of the mission mobs gets an attack off.

[Shin Magmus]

   I'd fully support several animation time reductions on Traps, as the set is forced to play more slowly than other sets.  The great new power Temporal Bomb leaves a stationary buff/debuff so it has to be cast in every fight, unlike similar buffs in other powersets which are applied to players.  Temporal Bomb alone takes 3x longer than it should to cast and detonate.  This doesn't mean that Traps is weak: it's still the best AV/GM-soloing set in the game, but Traps is hindered by everything taking way too long. 

 

   Here's a list of powers that should all cast at least a full second faster:

Triage Beacon

Acid Mortar

Temporal Bomb

Trip Mine (needs other tweaks as well)

[Riverdusk]

On 9/5/2024 at 3:55 PM, Vulgaris said:

It is interesting how just about everyone agrees that triage beacon could use a face lift even if they disagree with the flow and speed of the set as it stands in the current meta. It is very odd as well IMO still to have a static value healing power that does not change for the AT it's on and is sort of a non player/non factor in the set despite it being available for defenders and such too imo.

 

 

You'd be surprised.  This is far from the first time triage/spirit tree have been suggested for an update.  Usually been a couple of vocal critics of the idea of it being changed in any way that show up.  Surprised we haven't seen them yet (hides).