Null da Gull Knockback

[Rudra]

3 minutes ago, macskull said:

I’m curious where you are getting this information from, considering there are multiple player powers that have base values almost three times higher than that. Knockback strength most likely shares the same hidden +400% limit as many other attributes, which means it is a practical impossibility to reach.

And I would very much like to know what player powers at base value like you are saying are anywhere near as high as 45. Please enlighten me on these powers, because I would most definitely like to start using them. Even Nova is Mag 16.617 at base value.

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Oklahoman said:

I would support a KB->KD toggle, but when you toggle it on it automatically posts a request regarding Group Fly to the suggestion forums.

Gone to the Americans or /jranger?

[macskull]

23 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Even Nova is Mag 16.617 at base value.

Whoops, I was thinking of the enhanced values, which get into the mid-to-upper 40s for a handful of powers before factoring in the KB increase base buff or set bonuses. Defender Repulsion Bolt even manages to get up into the 50s. Corrected the previous post. Regardless, I’m still wondering where the idea that there was a mag 15 hard cap came from.

 

I suppose the actual theoretical maximum knockback magnitude a player power can have is 93.47.

Edited Tuesday at 11:11 PM by macskull

[Wavicle]

4 hours ago, ZacKing said:

 

So what?  When stuff like Fold Space is getting added to the game which makes herding/AoE DPS even faster/more efficient, why should KB > KD be treated any differently? 

 

That's a power that you have to take, and a power pool slot, and it requires two previous picks to unlock it. These are clear opportunity costs. And you're suggesting that KB>KD should have NO opportunity cost? Sorry, try again.

[Snarky]

10 hours ago, Snarky said:

I would suggest Null have a on/off for Knockback.  Global to character.   
 

1) default.  Powers act as normal

2) knockback to knockdown.  ALL powers act as if they have a KB->KD in them

 

3) bonus option.  All powers do knockback.  Muah hah hah

Everyone has an opinion.  And i appreciate the feedback.  I do.  
 

i am honestly shocked there is so much pro knockback votes.  3 is obvs a joke.  But peeps against option 2???   Interesting indeed

[golstat2003]

11 hours ago, Snarky said:

I would suggest Null have a on/off for Knockback.  Global to character.   
 

1) default.  Powers act as normal

2) knockback to knockdown.  ALL powers act as if they have a KB->KD in them

 

3) bonus option.  All powers do knockback.  Muah hah hah

 

You evil evil (Undead)Man. 😁

[Yomo Kimyata]

11 hours ago, Snarky said:

I would suggest Null have a on/off for Knockback.  Global to character.   
 

1) default.  Powers act as normal

2) knockback to knockdown.  ALL powers act as if they have a KB->KD in them

 

3) bonus option.  All powers do knockback.  Muah hah hah

 

Counterproposal:  Every enemy group with an attack that causes knock* gets a free Force Feedback +rech proc and an Explosive Strike +damage proc.

[DrRocket]

I support this on and off switch via the Gull or via options like its done for teleport and should be also there for group fly...

 

V/R

[kelika2]

12 hours ago, Snarky said:

I would suggest Null have a on/off for Knockback.  Global to character.   
 

1) default.  Powers act as normal

2) knockback to knockdown.  ALL powers act as if they have a KB->KD in them

 

3) bonus option.  All powers do knockback.  Muah hah hah

yes but knockback off by default

option to turn it on but it flags you in all chats for having it on.  like if you are forming a tf and Munchausen sends you a tell

[Timestamphere]Munchausen(KB on😞 hey id love to spend 30+ minutes in your group

[kelika2]

i think that was my first emoji.

lemme try that again to see how it happened

(KB on)

(KB on):

(KB on.)

(KB on)

(KB on):

(KB on.)

 

---

screw it i tried

---

Edited yesterday at 03:39 AM by kelika2
---

[Rudra]

14 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

i think that was my first emoji.

lemme try that again to see how it happened

(KB on)

(KB on):

(KB on.)

(KB on)

(KB on):

(KB on.)

 

---

screw it i tried

---

You put a space between the n in on and the close parenthesis. With the space separating them from anything else, the close parenthesis+colon combination does this: 😞

 

[biostem]

Can... can I just get a version of energy blast w/o the KB in every attack?  Elec is ok, but it's not the same, and I don't wanna play a WS to get a janky version of the blasts.  Heck, I'd even settle for being able to use the energy blast animations on other blast sets, at this point...

Edited yesterday at 03:57 AM by biostem

[Techwright]

8 hours ago, Wavicle said:

We already have KD>KB enhancements. They're called Knockback Enhancements.

 

As for the suggestion, the answer is always going to be no. Adding KB>KD is, in most cases, a DPS increase. Therefore it should require sacrificing a slot.

 

Also, a better solution for the game is to make KB more desirable, not make it easier to ignore.

 

"a DPS increase":  First I've heard of this.  I'm not a numbers guy, by far, but I'm surprised because my main since Live has been an ENG/ENG blaster, inherent KB.  I'd have thought I'd have heard of it by now.   I love ENG/ENG, but get highly annoyed at having to sacrifice a slot per power for KB>KD just to play with a team.    My first inclination, therefore, is to welcome the Null suggestion, but I'll be open-minded and would like to know more about this DPS increase.  How much, and what causes it? Just putting the Sudden Acceleration: KB to KD enhancement in?

 

12 hours ago, Snarky said:

I would suggest Null have a on/off for Knockback.  Global to character.   
 

1) default.  Powers act as normal

2) knockback to knockdown.  ALL powers act as if they have a KB->KD in them

As I stated, I lean towards this, but wonder what would happen to Sudden Acceleration: KB to KD? Modified to something new or sent the way of the Dodo and the Strength of Will Inspiration?

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, Techwright said:

"a DPS increase":  First I've heard of this.  I'm not a numbers guy, by far, but I'm surprised because my main since Live has been an ENG/ENG blaster, inherent KB.  I'd have thought I'd have heard of it by now.   I love ENG/ENG, but get highly annoyed at having to sacrifice a slot per power for KB>KD just to play with a team.    My first inclination, therefore, is to welcome the Null suggestion, but I'll be open-minded and would like to know more about this DPS increase.  How much, and what causes it? Just putting the Sudden Acceleration: KB to KD enhancement in?

This comes up every KB thread, so I'm very surprised this is the first you are hearing of it. The gist of it boils down to the DPS goes up because you don't have to spend time getting back into range to attack again.

[Wavicle]

Just now, Techwright said:

 

"a DPS increase":  First I've heard of this.  I'm not a numbers guy, by far, but I'm surprised because my main since Live has been an ENG/ENG blaster, inherent KB.  I'd have thought I'd have heard of it by now.   I love ENG/ENG, but get highly annoyed at having to sacrifice a slot per power for KB>KD just to play with a team.    My first inclination, therefore, is to welcome the Null suggestion, but I'll be open-minded and would like to know more about this DPS increase.  How much, and what causes it? Just putting the Sudden Acceleration: KB to KD enhancement in?

I'm not entirely sure, but on the off chance you aren't just trolling me. The reason teams want you to add KB>KD enhancements is because NOT having them slows down the speed of killing, aka decreases DPS. Therefore adding them is a DPS increase.

 

If adding them was NOT a DPS increase, people wouldn't care.

[PoptartsNinja]

10 hours ago, macskull said:

I’m curious where you are getting this information from, considering there are multiple player powers that have base enhanced values almost three times higher than that. Knockback strength most likely shares the same hidden +400% limit as many other attributes, which means it is a practical impossibility to reach.

 

It's something I vaguely remember from talking with Pohsyb back on the live servers. I was in the same Planetside clan as Pohsyb and he was the one who introduced me to CoH (I had no idea it was in development and it would've slid under my radar without him). IIRC, knockback had a built-in soft cap so any magnitude above a certain value got diminishing returns'd extremely hard. IIRC, this was because, at the time (this was pre-CoV, pre-ED) if knockback got too high it could cause mobs to move more quickly than the servers could process them and they'd despawn. I was never sure if there was a crash involved, but I always kinda assumed so.

Even in Homecoming you used to be able to still force-despawn enemies like this with Force Bubble. If you toggled it on at level 50 while standing right next to a level 1 Hellion in Atlas Park, they'd accelerate so quickly that they'd instantly teleport about 500 feet and then just despawn.



Anyway, I'm not sure if the knockback soft caps are still actually true, so I did some testing on Brainstorm:

 

All testing was done with Force Bolt, on a Level 7 Defender with different levels of knockback slotting. All attacks were made against the same minion, in the middle of an empty street near the King's Row hospital, with no obstructions or NPCs in the way. All tests were made against the same target, from their neutral 'weapon ready' animation pose, with their pistol drawn, from as close as the game would physically permit me to be (2 ft)

 

My sample size was limited to 5 shots at each enhancement value because I really should be in bed. You'd need larger sample size, a dev toolkit able to make the mob AI completely unresponsive, and a way to reset everything to exact x/y/z coordinates and facings to get an actually accurate knockback test.

Repulsion Bolt unenhanced knockback magnitude 10.44 vs. Level 7 Gravedigger Brawler minion (+0):
41 ft, 44 ft, 41 ft, 38 ft, 40 ft (avg 40.8 ft knockback)

Repulsion Bolt (level 7) enhanced with 1 knockback DO (magnitude 14.04) vs. Level 7 Gravedigger Brawler minion (+0):
37 ft, 43 ft, 43 ft, 39 ft, 51 ft (avg 42.6 ft knockback)
- Expected improvement over baseline: 1.3 - Tested improvement: 1.5

Repulsion Bolt (level 7) enhanced with 2 knockback DOs (magnitude 17.65) vs. Level 7 Gravedigger Brawler minion (+0):
40 ft, 53 ft, 56 ft, 61 ft (!), 30 ft (!) (avg 48 ft knockback)
 - Expected improvement over baseline: 1.6 - Tested improvement: 1.15

Repulsion Bolt (level 7) enhanced with 3 knockback DOs (magnitude 21.25) vs. Level 7 Gravedigger Brawler minion (+0):
45 ft, 51 ft, 46 ft, 54 ft, 50 ft (avg 49.2 ft knockback)
 - Expected improvement over baseline: 1.9 - Tested improvement: 1.17

Repulsion Bolt (level 7) enhanced with 4 knockback DOs (magnitude 24.66) vs. Level 7 Gravedigger Brawler minion (+0):

49 ft, 43 ft, 53 ft, 65 ft, 42 ft (avg 50.4 ft knockback)

- Expected improvement over baseline: 2.2 - Tested improvement: 1.19

 

Repulsion Bolt (level 7) enhanced with 5 knockback DOs (magnitude 27.43) vs. Level 7 Gravedigger Brawler minion (+0):

63 ft, 59 ft, 53 ft, 59 ft, 65 ft (avg 59.8 ft knockback)

- Expected improvement over baseline: 2.47 - Tested improvement: 1.32

 

Repulsion Bolt (level 7) enhanced with 6 knockback DOs (magnitude 28.40) vs. Level 7 Gravedigger Brawler minion (+0):
51 ft, 61 ft, 51 ft, 63 ft, 63 ft (avg 57.8 ft knockback)

- Expected improvement over baseline: 2.68 - Tested improvement: 1.29
 

 

I also got 1 outlier launch to 93 feet with only 2 knockback enhancements slotted, I didn't count it because it was weird and I never replicated it again.

So either knockback is hugely variable and doesn't really conform to magnitude the way other controls do (likely), however the server simulates air resistance is the densest of spagetti (extremely likely), or there is some sort of diminishing returns soft cap (possible) that makes high knockback magnitudes scale really weirdly.

We'd probably need a current powers dev to confirm. And I have a feeling the confirmation would be "yeah, Knockback is just weird."

Edited yesterday at 08:51 AM by PoptartsNinja
Edited for Clarity

[Snarky]

5 hours ago, Techwright said:

 

"a DPS increase":  First I've heard of this.  I'm not a numbers guy, by far, but I'm surprised because my main since Live has been an ENG/ENG blaster, inherent KB.  I'd have thought I'd have heard of it by now.   I love ENG/ENG, but get highly annoyed at having to sacrifice a slot per power for KB>KD just to play with a team.    My first inclination, therefore, is to welcome the Null suggestion, but I'll be open-minded and would like to know more about this DPS increase.  How much, and what causes it? Just putting the Sudden Acceleration: KB to KD enhancement in?

 

As I stated, I lean towards this, but wonder what would happen to Sudden Acceleration: KB to KD? Modified to something new or sent the way of the Dodo and the Strength of Will Inspiration?

Yes, the DPS increase is quite disingenuous in my opinion.  Having to place KB->KD slots is a DPS penalty.  Energy Blasters are a great example.  Asking for a way out of that is POWERGAMING!!!!!!!

[Grouchybeast]

15 hours ago, PoptartsNinja said:

And it's easy to control in high tier content, since knockback magnitude already scales with enemy level; so you almost have to enhance knockback if you want to knock-proc a +4.

Then you can move Sudden Acceleration's KB to KD out of the knockdown set (Sudden Acceleration having a six slot bonus is a cruel joke) and into a non-unique universal damage set, and replace it with a very fun "your knockback magnitude has a low chance to no longer respect the purple patch" proc.

 

If higher knockback magnitude is a higher proc chance, it stops disincentivizing trying to minimize the knockback rating in everything. And if a few powers like meteor become better, well... the spawn still had to survive long enough for the meteor to actually hit them so I think the high knock-proc rate is earned.

 

Yes.  This is all great.  Devs, get in here and implement all of this right now!

[mistagoat]

I'm on board for a KB to KD toggle or Null option. I hate paying the converter tax!

However how would it work if, for example, you were a Energy/Martial Blaster and you wanted to convert all your Energy attacks but leave the awesome Ki Push unconverted?

[ZacKing]

15 hours ago, Wavicle said:

That's a power that you have to take, and a power pool slot, and it requires two previous picks to unlock it. These are clear opportunity costs. And you're suggesting that KB>KD should have NO opportunity cost? Sorry, try again.

 

Hmmm.... let me see.  Choose between a couple of single target attacks with middling DPS at best or maybe another pool pick to use as a mule, or choose taking FS that will help vastly increase my overall DPS.  Where's the sacrifice again?  I'd believe you if there weren't tons of people doing exactly this because its the new DPS meta and if you ask them why they took FS, they all say its because it increased their DPS.  Sorry, try again. 

 

As far as the whole KB slows your DPS because it pushes stuff out of range forcing you to re-engage, that doesn't work either, unless you don't know how to use KH effectively.  People who understand how to use KB effectively are knocking stuff into walls or are flying above the target to knock them down instead of back, so they're never out of range. 

Edited 17 hours ago by ZacKing

[Wavicle]

2 hours ago, ZacKing said:

 

Hmmm.... let me see.  Choose between a couple of single target attacks with middling DPS at best or maybe another pool pick to use as a mule, or choose taking FS that will help vastly increase my overall DPS.  Where's the sacrifice again?  I'd believe you if there weren't tons of people doing exactly this because its the new DPS meta and if you ask them why they took FS, they all say its because it increased their DPS.  Sorry, try again. 

 

It's obviously a big increase, that's why people do it. It's true a bit for Energy Blasters, but not everything is about Energy Blasters. Adding KB>KD to Lightning Storm or Bonfire are both CLEARLY big DPS increases. Everyone knows this, that's WHY people slot those.

 

  

2 hours ago, ZacKing said:

As far as the whole KB slows your DPS because it pushes stuff out of range forcing you to re-engage, that doesn't work either, unless you don't know how to use KH effectively.  People who understand how to use KB effectively are knocking stuff into walls or are flying above the target to knock them down instead of back, so they're never out of range. 

 

If this was really the case then what is everyone complaining about? Why does this thread even exist?

Edited 14 hours ago by Wavicle

[golstat2003]

32 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

 

It's obviously a big increase, that's why people do it. It's true a bit for Energy Blasters, but not everything is about Energy Blasters. Adding KB>KD to Lightning Storm or Bonfire are both CLEARLY big DPS increases. Everyone knows this, that's WHY people slot those.

 

  

 

If this was really the case then what is everyone complaining about? Why does this thread even exist?

 

Also the devs recently made changes to Bonfire just cause of that KB>KD conversion.

 

 

[Skyhawke]

Well, you never ever hear someone on a team say "Man, if only we had more knockback in our attacks because I love chasing things." or "Hey, keep Repel on and run through everything! Woop woop!". However, boy oh boy, do you hear "Please stop knocking things back!" or "You need to slot KB->KD in your attacks!" a whole lot.  🤷‍♂️

[ZacKing]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

It's obviously a big increase, that's why people do it. It's true a bit for Energy Blasters, but not everything is about Energy Blasters. Adding KB>KD to Lightning Storm or Bonfire are both CLEARLY big DPS increases. Everyone knows this, that's WHY people slot those.

 

I understand that.  My point was that there's really no "lost opportunity" with the "cost" of foregoing a couple of middling powers or pool picks for mules in favor of taking FS.  Unless I completely misunderstood you, the net gain in taking FS clearly outweighs by an enormous margin any "lost opportunity", so it's not even relevant.  If people are worried about a toggle or option to use KD instead of KB is going to somehow break the game because of "huge" DPS increases, then I think it's silly given the current META of teleporting huge mobs without even needing to move as much and have a far, far greater impact on DPS than any KB > KD toggle would ever have. 

 

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

If this was really the case then what is everyone complaining about? Why does this thread even exist?

 

I can only speak for myself, but these threads generally tend to stem from people ranting about KB and how it annoys teams and they either had to kick someone or were themselves kicked from a team because of KB.  This happens when people don't know how to use KB effectively.  If you have even the slightest bit of situational awareness, you can be knocking things into walls or knocking them down from above so as not to push them out of range of your attacks or away from anyone else.  Granted, that's not always feasible in places like caves or offices and such, nor do I think people should be forced into taking Flight or buying rocket packs just to be able to use KB effectively.

 

KB in a team setting is one of many problems in my opinion, mostly stemming from very poor design choices and the assumption that people will use things "correctly" in the way the original power Devs intended.  Most people don't and never will, and that's something that should've been taken into consideration in my opinion.  It fails a basic understanding of what some (and I would argue most) people find enjoyable in the game in my opinion.  You're of course welcome to disagree.

 

I find KB is fine for soloing.  Hellion golfing used to be a favored past time of mine.  I have quite a few Energy Blasters, /Martial Blasters, MA scrappers etc. who all have KB and it's fun when soloing.  There are times when KB is beneficial, but that's rare in my experience.  I can completely see where KB can be annoying for a team when you have people knocking mobs out of range of AoEs or away from the aggro of a tank.  Personally, if I'm on my Energy blaster, I try to position myself so as not to disrupt the team flow as much as possible. 

 

It's the same thing with Fold Space.  I can't tell you how many times I'm on a team and engaged with a group of mobs only to have them FS'ed right off me toward another player.  That's annoying, especially when unannounced.  99.999% of the time you're told "Fuck you" if you politely ask them not to do it or at least try and grab other mobs and leave some food on the plate for you.  Those very same people are the ones who will then complain you're hot dogging when you run off to solo stuff because you're "not helping the team".  Yeah, that's great they can use FS and just nuke the mobs for faster XP, but just getting faster XP and inf isn't what's the fun part of the game for me.   I actually enjoy engaging with the content and fighting stuff.  It's why I make the investment in time and resources in building characters.  I think that's true for a lot of, if not most all people too, but that's my opinion.  Having stuff teleported away from or knocked away from you goes against that grain, and that's something I think the original Devs didn't take into account.  Again, my opinion though and you're welcome to disagree.

 

Anyway, I don't see a problem with adding a toggle for KB > KD.   I personally wouldn't mind losing some DPS as someone suggested earlier in the thread if this toggle were turned on.  It's not like we're talking a ten fold increase in DPS or anything if someone goes from KB to KD, and it helps solve an ongoing problem of people complaining about KB on teams. 

Edited 12 hours ago by ZacKing

[golstat2003]

For the record I don't have an issue with there being a Null option, as long as the default is KB on. Folks who want it off should have to go to NULL to turn it off.

 

I'm fine with KB on all my characters as I know how to use it properly in a team setting.