QOL Request: Allow for Universal Travel IO's to be Slotted into Prestige Sprints

[Vanden]

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Knockback/Enemies_with_Knockback_Powers

There's a long list of powers with more than mag 8 KB.

 

Okay, so, let's play: There are 1667 powers in that list. 1564 are mag 8 or less. That means that the most aggressive archetypal slotter who uses 2 KB ios is immune to 93.8% of KB powers in the game.

 

Gaining 2 more slots (mag 16kb), they'll be immune to 97.4%.

 

That is kind of the definition of de minimis.

 

There are many common bosses on that list with more than 8 mag KB. It's not a matter of quantity, but quality, in that slotting for that much protection gives it to you when you need it the most.

 

And you still haven't acknowledged the suggestion of putting KB protection into PvP Resist Bonus, even though it gives you exactly what you're asking for.

[macskull]

Okay, so, let's play: There are 1667 powers in that list. 1564 are mag 8 or less. That means that the most aggressive archetypal slotter who uses 2 KB ios is immune to 93.8% of KB powers in the game.

 

Gaining 2 more slots (mag 16kb), they'll be immune to 97.4%.

 

That is kind of the definition of de minimis.

To go further on that, quite a few of the critters in that list are NPCs that you never actually fight against. Additionally, only a handful of those critters with KB magnitude over 8 are ones you'll actually routinely encounter (basically, boss or lower).

[Vanden]

I'll also address your earlier suggestion of adding KB protection into the inherent base resists that everyone gets. There are two issues with that:

 

 

1. Not every AT gets inherent base resistance in PvP.

2. To turn your argument back the other way... if I suddenly have all that extra KB protection for no investment I've now opened up at least eight slots to do other things with (and this isn't theoretical, you actually need eight slots for KB IOs in addition to Acrobatics to reach the level of KB protection you need to be survivable). By your own earlier argument that's a massive balance problem.

 

1. PvP Resist Bonus is an auto power granted to every AT in a PvP setting. It gives differing amounts of resistance to each AT, but there's no reason it couldn't be changed to add mag 20 KB protection for any given AT as well.

 

2. The whole point of the suggestion is to open up slots for players making PvP builds. Putting the KB protection in PvP Resist Bonus does exactly that without affecting PvE.

[macskull]

1. PvP Resist Bonus is an auto power granted to every AT in a PvP setting. It gives differing amounts of resistance to each AT, but there's no reason it couldn't be changed to add mag 20 KB protection for any given AT as well.

 

2. The whole point of the suggestion is to open up slots for players making PvP builds. Putting the KB protection in PvP Resist Bonus does exactly that without affecting PvE.

1. I'm well aware of what the PvP resist bonus is and how it works. So I'll say it again - not every AT gets inherent base resistance in PvP.

 

2. You didn't even address the point I made. What I got out of your reply, though, is you're okay with unbalancing PvP because it doesn't affect PvE, but you're not okay with unbalancing PvE for the sake of PvP? Never mind that your proposed idea, while nice at face value, would, by your own argument, be inherently unbalanced. Also never mind that your proposed idea would actually introduce imbalance, unlike the solution the OP proposed.

 

EDIT: Ah, I see your argument about point number 1. I suppose, yes, every AT does get the PvP resistance power even if that power does literally nothing for them. So sure, that makes sense. But... see point number 2 for why that's a bad idea, using the very same argument you're using to say why the OP's solution is a bad idea.

[Vanden]

1. PvP Resist Bonus is an auto power granted to every AT in a PvP setting. It gives differing amounts of resistance to each AT, but there's no reason it couldn't be changed to add mag 20 KB protection for any given AT as well.

 

2. The whole point of the suggestion is to open up slots for players making PvP builds. Putting the KB protection in PvP Resist Bonus does exactly that without affecting PvE.

1. I'm well aware of what the PvP resist bonus is and how it works. So I'll say it again - not every AT gets inherent base resistance in PvP.

 

2. So you're okay with unbalancing PvP because it doesn't affect PvE, but you're not okay with unbalancing PvE for the sake of PvP? Never mind that your proposed idea, while nice at face value, would, by your own argument, be inherently unbalanced. Also never mind that your proposed idea would actually introduce imbalance, unlike the solution the OP proposed.

 

EDIT: Ah, I see your argument about point number 1. I suppose, yes, every AT does get the PvP resistance power even if that power does literally nothing for them. So sure, that makes sense. But... see point number 2 for why that's a bad idea, using the very same argument you're using to say why the OP's solution is a bad idea.

 

I'm not arguing the PvP merits of OP's suggestion. I don't PvP, but I'm accepting his assertion that building for 40+ KB protection is so important that virtually every serious PvPer has to do it. So yes, giving every player access to mag 20 KB protection for no build investment does open up a ton of new slotting opportunities, but that is the point of the suggestion, after all.

[macskull]

So yes, giving every player access to mag 20 KB protection for no build investment does open up a ton of new slotting opportunities, but that is the point of the suggestion, after all.

So why are you so opposed to the OP's suggestion?

[Vanden]

So yes, giving every player access to mag 20 KB protection for no build investment does open up a ton of new slotting opportunities, but that is the point of the suggestion, after all.

 

So why are you so opposed to the OP's suggestion?

 

Because it's plain power creep in PvE.

[Adeon Hawkwood]

2. You didn't even address the point I made. What I got out of your reply, though, is you're okay with unbalancing PvP because it doesn't affect PvE, but you're not okay with unbalancing PvE for the sake of PvP? Never mind that your proposed idea, while nice at face value, would, by your own argument, be inherently unbalanced. Also never mind that your proposed idea would actually introduce imbalance, unlike the solution the OP proposed.

No it wouldn't. The OP is basically asking for the sprints to be allowed to slot KB protection IOs, which effectively gives every AT 20 points of KB protection for free. Vanden's suggestion is to just give every AT 20 points of KB protection while in PvP zones. From the point of view of PVP the two suggestions are functionally identical since it gives everyone 20 points of KB protection without having to spend slots in powers. The difference is that one of the changes also power creeps PvE while the other doesn't.

[Lucious]

I'm still not convinced it is the right direction to go. Making it only pvp is a good idea but ranged is going to become even stronger, it also makes the Mighty incarnate option useless to the point where it might as well be deleted from the incarnate system. Ranged has far to many advantages already and doesn't seem to be stopping anytime soon, actually im rather sick of it and so are a lot of other peeps who want to play melee that isn't a stalker in pvp, didnt Sent just get a Hp buff? Where the fuck are the buffs for melee?! We need to be careful implementing shit like this because there will be repercussions, it is never as straight forward as it seems. The way the game is favoring Ranged in pvp is pretty obvious and if it keeps going the pvp player base will dwindle quickly. We need to make changes that benefit the majority, not the minority.

 

 

My suggestion is to  add it to the options in Arena, simple as that so when you guys are having 8 vs 8 matches you don't need to slot for KB protection.

 

Also let me add to the PvE side. I don't see anything that will be a major issue for pve that has been raised that has not been answered in a thought-out reply and answering the concerns of the PvE community. How long has it been since pve has been a matter of life and death because of Kb, because it is just that in 8 vs 8 matches. With incarnates etc you just steam roll anything in the game, it's hardly a huge challenge, i'm just being honest and before you think im all pro pvp and ffff pve i am not. I enjoy this game as a whole, always have and still do and Im so happy to see it come back as im sure a lot of you are. I want to see it survive and flourish and it is up to all of us to make that happen.

[vinnie_]

IMO, a PvP only IO that offers KB protection that could be slotted in the prestige sprints, or even Vanden's suggestion are perfectly reasonable and would prevent Power Creep.

 

FYI, I'm in full agreement with our PvE friends here that this isn't a good change to make across the board to affect PvE and PvP. I feel like we can have this change for PvP only and not disrupt the PvE community (even though we are very active members of that same group).

[vinnie_]

it also makes the Mighty incarnate option useless to the point where it might as well be deleted from the incarnate system.

 

Who is using the Mighty Incarnate in PvP right now to begin with? Who is using anything but Pyronic and maybe Ion.

 

Ranged has far to many advantages already and doesn't seem to be stopping anytime soon, actually im rather sick of it and so are a lot of other peeps who want to play melee that isn't a stalker in pvp, didnt Sent just get a Hp buff? Where the fuck are the buffs for melee?!

 

Melee is fine, CC in PvP is the problem. This discussion has already been had ad nausem.

 

We need to be careful implementing shit like this because there will be repercussions, it is never as straight forward as it seems. The way the game is favoring Ranged in pvp is pretty obvious and if it keeps going the pvp player base will dwindle quickly. We need to make changes that benefit the majority, not the minority.

 

The game has always favored ranged in PvP, that isn't going to change, nor should it. The movement of this game is what makes PvP so beautiful. Melee has a place in that system, but it has always been very niche (with a bigger impact in zones and smaller scale matches than larger 8v8 formats).

 

[Lucious]

it also makes the Mighty incarnate option useless to the point where it might as well be deleted from the incarnate system.

 

Who is using the Mighty Incarnate in PvP right now to begin with? Who is using anything but Pyronic and maybe Ion.

 

Ranged has far to many advantages already and doesn't seem to be stopping anytime soon, actually im rather sick of it and so are a lot of other peeps who want to play melee that isn't a stalker in pvp, didnt Sent just get a Hp buff? Where the fuck are the buffs for melee?!

 

Melee is fine, CC in PvP is the problem. This discussion has already been had ad nausem.

 

We need to be careful implementing shit like this because there will be repercussions, it is never as straight forward as it seems. The way the game is favoring Ranged in pvp is pretty obvious and if it keeps going the pvp player base will dwindle quickly. We need to make changes that benefit the majority, not the minority.

 

The game has always favored ranged in PvP, that isn't going to change, nor should it. The movement of this game is what makes PvP so beautiful. Melee has a place in that system, but it has always been very niche (with a bigger impact in zones and smaller scale matches than larger 8v8 formats).

 

***Ive been using Mighty a few times on the stalker against MM's in pvp, works bloody well, try it out for your self. Just because you don't use it in pvp or in arena doesn't mean it is not used and it defiantly does mean that because you can't think on ways to make it useful and therefore it can be scrapped who cares attitude is exactly not what to do or how to be.... actually thats the attitude that needs to stop.

 

*** If CC in PvP or the lol lack of,.. is the problem then tell me good sir, why do you want to take away kb isnt that totally going against what you are suggesting, make up your mind please?!!! Melee is not fine right now, please stop saying that like you actually believe it, yes I do agree with you that CC would be a huge improvement. Has it been discussed has it, all finalized and signed to? Until that happens i will speak out about it and travel suppression and de-toggling when the game was still fast and team orientated and moved beautifully but it was a different beast then with a higher skill ceiling to reach, the game has speed up a little because it has been dumbed down more and made easier for special little snowflakes that melt when it gets to hot.

 

I realize the game has always been if favor of ranged for a long time now Einstein, but not like this, as it is right now. Please who are you trying to convince here, the community or yourself? It wasn't always in favor of ranged either, melee had their time in the light. My main use to swat any squishy away like a fly. Didn't matter what it was, squishys knew to keep their distance and play smarter and with support like it should be,  but now its totally reversed, tell me what is wrong with that picture?!

 

Anyways, sorry to de-rail the thread a little, just sick of people wanting what they want and trying to pull the cover over our eyes to get it. Back to the original subject at hand.

[Firi]

So if your going to add 20 PTs of KB in PvP only, Add pvp accolades while your at it

 

 

Thanks

 

The real point of this is to be the *least* amount of work for the power devs to turn on

[Silent Method]

So, realizing I'm coming super late to this, are there any issues with the following?

 

• Revert Acrobatics back to a meaningful amount of KB protection, say somewhere in the 30-40 range, with only a portion of it being enhanceable by KB IOs (similar to how a portion of it is now).
  
• Increase the KB protection given by any defensive sets (e.g. Integration from Regen) along those same lines, since those sets don't always take Acro. If you want to get really fancy, make the base amount of KB protection in those powers highest for Tankers, lowest for Sentinels, etc.
  
• Only make these changes for the PvP versions of these powers if there is concern about the impact on PvE. This whole discussion shouldn't be derailed by messing with the PvE metagame if people don't want that to change.
  

 

Here's what this accomplishes for PvP:

 

• Prevents the need to mess with Prestige Sprint slotting (which is something that would inevitably affect PvE).
  
• Prevents the need for everybody to pointlessly spend a ton of influence IOing out their Prestige Sprints, but also allows greater build flexibility elsewhere which is kind of the point of the original suggestion.
  
• Most importantly: allows Acrobatics' new PvP magnitude to be tweaked directly for balance purposes, in order to make KB protection a strategic choice. This includes being able to tweak not only the total unslotted protection it offers, but also the portion that is enhanceable.
  
• Say for the sake of argument that the biggest KB threat is Force Bolt at Mag 50. Unslotted Acrobatics could be set to maybe 35 protection, with a portion of it enhanceable, so that it becomes a decision of whether to burn an extra slot or two on Acro's KB slotting (it should be slightly more valuable per slot than the 4 KB from the usual KB IOs), or whether to throw in a few standard KB protection IOs in the usual places, or whether to take the risk of being knocked back by a fully slotted Force Bolt. But you won't have to twist your build into knots just to fit in more than a half dozen KB protection IOs like you do now.
  

 

"But giving that much protection to base Acrobatics will ruin the knockback I currently get on some unprepared players with my < 35 magnitude KB in Power Push / Levitate / etc." -- okay, so make some of the KB numbers more consistent across powers. Maybe Force Bolt should always have the highest value, but put some other common KB/KD powers in roughly the same league in order to make balancing PvP knockback easier. PvP knockback is one of those things where the balance is always going to be centered around the worst offender, like Force Bolt, so achieve some degree of balance around its numbers and consider putting other KB/KD powers closer to those same values -- again, only for the PvP versions of these powers.

[barrier]

So, realizing I'm coming super late to this, are there any issues with the following?

 

• Revert Acrobatics back to a meaningful amount of KB protection, say somewhere in the 30-40 range, with only a portion of it being enhanceable by KB IOs (similar to how a portion of it is now).
  
• Increase the KB protection given by any defensive sets (e.g. Integration from Regen) along those same lines, since those sets don't always take Acro. If you want to get really fancy, make the base amount of KB protection in those powers highest for Tankers, lowest for Sentinels, etc.
  
• Only make these changes for the PvP versions of these powers if there is concern about the impact on PvE. This whole discussion shouldn't be derailed by messing with the PvE metagame if people don't want that to change.
  

 

Here's what this accomplishes for PvP:

 

• Prevents the need to mess with Prestige Sprint slotting (which is something that would inevitably affect PvE).
  
• Prevents the need for everybody to pointlessly spend a ton of influence IOing out their Prestige Sprints, but also allows greater build flexibility elsewhere which is kind of the point of the original suggestion.
  
• Most importantly: allows Acrobatics' new PvP magnitude to be tweaked directly for balance purposes, in order to make KB protection a strategic choice. This includes being able to tweak not only the total unslotted protection it offers, but also the portion that is enhanceable.
  
• Say for the sake of argument that the biggest KB threat is Force Bolt at Mag 50. Unslotted Acrobatics could be set to maybe 35 protection, with a portion of it enhanceable, so that it becomes a decision of whether to burn an extra slot or two on Acro's KB slotting (it should be slightly more valuable per slot than the 4 KB from the usual KB IOs), or whether to throw in a few standard KB protection IOs in the usual places, or whether to take the risk of being knocked back by a fully slotted Force Bolt. But you won't have to twist your build into knots just to fit in more than a half dozen KB protection IOs like you do now.
  

 

"But giving that much protection to base Acrobatics will ruin the knockback I currently get on some unprepared players with my < 35 magnitude KB in Power Push / Levitate / etc." -- okay, so make some of the KB numbers more consistent across powers. Maybe Force Bolt should always have the highest value, but put some other common KB/KD powers in roughly the same league in order to make balancing PvP knockback easier. PvP knockback is one of those things where the balance is always going to be centered around the worst offender, like Force Bolt, so achieve some degree of balance around its numbers and consider putting other KB/KD powers closer to those same values -- again, only for the PvP versions of these powers.

 

Probs the best suggestion here.

 

I still take issue with people saying that allowing players to invest 8-12 million extra in kb io's to protect themselves against an additional 4% of attacks with kb in PVE is significant power creep along with 1-2 power slots which they probably were already using (underslotting run speed, etc). Don't know what game you're playing. It's not a significant PVE change.

 

But what Silent proposes is good. Less wheel being reinvented. More of a clean-cut change.

[vinnie_]

Agreed, Silent's suggestions are the most reasonable and still allow for some level of utility and disruption for those that try to intentionally KB.

[CR Banana Man]

I didn’t feel strongly either way about this, so I took some time to think it over. Shout out to psypunk.

 

Barrier’s idea is good in that it’s something easy to implement while having almost negligible side effects. That said, as other ideas in this thread have shown, the same goal can be achieved without any side-effects.

 

I’m gonna echo this sentiment:

 

I feel like we can have this change for PvP only and not disrupt the PvE community (even though we are very active members of that same group).

 

Silent Method’s idea seems like it’d be easy to code, and also the least intrusive to other facets of the game. Quick note on that: the part about increasing KB protection on melee sets wouldn’t be needed because they already get enough KB resistance to be un-kb-able. What we could (should) do is add KB protection and resists to the melee sets that currently don’t have any (fire, ninjitsu, any others I’m missing). This addition could be a PvP only change (real talk, though, why don’t those sets have KB protections in PvE too?).

 

this is just a quick fix to the bigger problem and will not really change anything like you say. I would rather see time and resources that are available used to improve pvp in bringing back balance and not dumbing everything down even further, this feels like it is another step backwards, not forwards. I realize a suggestion is just that, a suggestion and it's good to see people discussing changes and ideas. I just really think there are many, many changes needed to the mechanics of pvp before changes like this are implemented

 

I’m with you, there. This is why any changes I’m currently pushing for are essentially agnostic of any overarching PvP system (new maps, free hp accolade buff, bug fixes, etc).

 

 

***Ive been using Mighty a few times on the stalker against MM's in pvp, works bloody well

 

Lucious, this next bit might sound sarcastic, but I’m genuinely asking because maybe you know something I don’t. What is it about using mighty judgement against MMs that would stop working with the addition of higher KB protections? Do the KB res IOs work on their pets too? Further, how does increasing access to KB protection make melee worse with the way KB currently works? Which melee set is KBing people right now?

 

 

*** If CC in PvP or the lol lack of,.. is the problem then tell me good sir, why do you want to take away kb isnt that totally going against what you are suggesting, make up your mind please?!!! Melee is not fine right now, please stop saying that like you actually believe it, yes I do agree with you that CC would be a huge improvement. Has it been discussed has it, all finalized and signed to? Until that happens i will speak out about it and travel suppression and de-toggling when the game was still fast and team orientated and moved beautifully but it was a different beast then with a higher skill ceiling to reach, the game has speed up a little because it has been dumbed down more and made easier for special little snowflakes that melt when it gets to hot.

 

I realize the game has always been if favor of ranged for a long time now Einstein, but not like this, as it is right now. Please who are you trying to convince here, the community or yourself? It wasn't always in favor of ranged either, melee had their time in the light. My main use to swat any squishy away like a fly. Didn't matter what it was, squishys knew to keep their distance and play smarter and with support like it should be,  but now its totally reversed, tell me what is wrong with that picture?!

 

I realize this wasn’t directed at me, but, here’s my answer, and my general thoughts on melee right now, and the KB mechanic.

 

Knockback, as it exists in coh right now, is a skill reducer. It’s a skill reducing mechanic the same way perma-taunting is or perma caging was, or like the current mez system is. In a team PvP environment, the 4 second unavoidable holds of the i13 system are infinitely stronger than the 30 second avoidable holds of the old system ever were. CC in team PvP right now, especially with the damage from procs, is absolutely busted.

 

KBing (and CCing) something right now doesn’t require any special coordination or set-up. It doesn’t require you to risk anything to gain the reward of KBing/holding someone into what’s essentially a free kill. The person you KB can be completely oblivious to it, or completely aware of it. He can be the best evader in the game, or the worst evader in the game. If your team isn’t god awful, that person is dead. Yes, you CAN hibernate or phase after you notice the KB icon on your buff bar but before the KB occurs, or even pre-phase a spike because someone telegraphs it - that's not balanced counter-play. A person shouldn't have to use their 120 second cooldown phase shift to avoid an otherwise unavoidable KB power with an enhanced cooldown under 4 seconds, especially not when pre-phasing in the first place is because the other team misplayed.

 

To achieve something like that, you should have to either pull off some crazy coordination, or use a long, dangerous animation with a short range, probably something that you can’t use very often. Force Bolt is a 1.1 second cast with 80 ft base range and a 4 second cooldown, it’s spammable with no repercussions. Some people might try to argue that running a bubbler is the sacrifice your team makes for that kind of power. Running a bubbler in exchange for free kills every time you spike is not a sacrifice (doubly so in the current system where that bubbler can contribute near blaster level damage to those same spikes).

 

CCing and KBing in smaller scale PvP, on the other hand, is not broken at all, and probably underpowered if anything (not counting the bugged holds). This goes back to what you said about being careful about changes, because one change can screw up 5 other things. There isn’t a simple fix that makes CC ok in smaller scale stuff without making it even more busted in team stuff. This is the stuff that would require major system changes.

 

Melee is the same way. I’ll agree that melee isn’t “fine” - but there’s a caveat to that. Melee is no less “fine” than anything else right now, because this system is busted and very little is fine with it.

 

This idea that melee characters are just getting torn apart by ranged ones is a falsehood. There are melee characters that can facetank an Ice/Plant blaster for 10 minutes straight and not come close to dying. You could point out that I’m using the strongest melee characters in this example, and that I’m neglecting to mention that the rest aren’t that strong - you could point that out.

 

I’d respond by pointing out that I’m also using an Ice/Plant Blaster in this example, which is one of the most powerful ranged builds. Yes, an Ice/Plant Blaster, in a closed environment, can kill a BS/Fire Scrapper… but I don’t see anyone out here complaining about not being able to beat Elec/Ice Blasters and AR/Traps Corruptors. There’s disparity in every AT. At the top level, melee ATs do not lose to ranged ones, in a closed 1v1 environment, they either win or tie.

 

Melee, in team matches, is a weird situation, because it’s actually broken, but for all the wrong reasons. You can play a melee character in an 8v8, but your role would typically be (on anything except a stalker) playing “taunt-bot.”

 

The problem with this is that

 

  A. Taunt bots are a skill reducing mechanic, and a very broken one at that. It’s a low skill role, a low risk role, and a very high impact/high reward role.

  B. Playing a taunt bot is an experience most melee players (and most players in general) find to be boring and unrewarding (how much fun is just running around web nading and taunting the same person for 10 minutes straight?).

 

There’s no simple fix for melee. Just buffing damage on something that’s already completely unkillable is not a good balance change. Melee is too bad at what it’s bad at (confirming damage on people), and too good at what it’s good at (being literally invincible).

 

Another thing about melee that makes it weird (and still somehow like everything else) is that there isn’t an accepted standard of what a balanced melee character actually is, and this is due largely in part to people having vastly differing experiences on melee, and playing against people of vastly varying skill levels.

 

*For the record, we’ve really yet to see the extent of how broken taunt bots actually are. On live, they did way less damage, were less durable, and were usually only run by teams that weren’t very good. I’m pretty certain that a coordinated team of say 2 emps, 5 ss/bios, and one poison could beat a conventional 8v8 jump team of blasters, defenders and corruptors by just perma taunting 5 people, setting up really long holds with the poison, and then hitting 5 ko blows simultaneously on the target. Even if you only get 4 or 5 kills in a 10 minute game it’s plenty. You’re probably never dying on that team.

 

[HeroReborn]

Would adding a PvP only bonus to the existing KB resist IOs work the best? 

Lke how some set bonuses have additionioal functions in PvP (eg Gladitor's Net).

 

So add +20 KB resist for PvP only on those unique seems simple and leaves any PvE stuff unchanged.

 

I'd rather not future sets of universal travel being restrained in design because they can be slotted in sprints.

[Silent Method]

So, realizing I'm coming super late to this, are there any issues with the following?

 

• Revert Acrobatics back to a meaningful amount of KB protection, say somewhere in the 30-40 range, with only a portion of it being enhanceable by KB IOs (similar to how a portion of it is now).
  
• Increase the KB protection given by any defensive sets (e.g. Integration from Regen) along those same lines, since those sets don't always take Acro. If you want to get really fancy, make the base amount of KB protection in those powers highest for Tankers, lowest for Sentinels, etc.
  
• Only make these changes for the PvP versions of these powers if there is concern about the impact on PvE. This whole discussion shouldn't be derailed by messing with the PvE metagame if people don't want that to change.
  

 

To add a little more direction to this suggestion, here are some numbers I ran, assuming Pine's is accurate.

 

• Current strongest KB: roughly 51.21 (Force Bolt slotted with 6x Kinetic Crash), which comes from 18.69 unslotted, honorable mention to a few other powers around 45-46 when slotted. See notes below for alternate slottings that reach up to 57.91 KB.
  
• Current Acrobatics: 7 protection that cannot be enhanced + 2 protection that can. So 9 protection or 10.53 or 11.98 (0, 1, or 2 slotted with regular KB IOs respectively).
  

 

Here is a new suggestion that tries to achieve the situation I described above, which only requires modifying Acrobatics in PvP, as well as other knockback powers (besides Force Bolt) if there is a desire to put those powers in the same league as Force Bolt. Again, this is only intended to keep the conversation going; people are free to disagree about the right numbers:

 

• New Acrobatics, PvP Only: 24 protection that cannot be enhanced + 6 protection that can. So 30 protection or 34.58 or 38.94 (0, 1, or 2 slotted with regular KB IOs respectively).
  
• This means the first KB IO in Acrobatics is worth 4.584, and the second is worth 4.354, which are a little more valuable than KB Protection IOs, but you obviously can only do a couple slots in Acro before diminishing returns kicks in.
  
• Assuming people 2-slot Acro, this means you'd need an extra 12.27 protection from other sources in order to be safe from a "regular" 6-slotted Kinetic Crash Force Bolt.
  
• Possible other changes: take other popular KB-oriented powers (Power Push, Power Thrust, Levitate, Lift, etc.), and in PvP Only, increase their base knockback to be closer to Force Bolt's 18.69. This would allow multiple powers to try to prey on unprepared builds, but they might have to sacrifice damage slotting / damage procs in order to do so. Even fancier: allow powers like Levitate and Lift to have 40+ base knockback (knockdown, technically), but unenhanceable, so that those powers have a good amount of innate KB and can still slot damage.
  

 

If people feel that's too generous to Acrobatics, the 24 unenhanceable protection can be decreased pretty easily.

 

Also, there's a little room for mind games in terms of people slotting Force Bolt differently. 4x Kinetic Crash + 2 KB IOs gets the magnitude to 53.35, or 6 KB IOs (!) gets the magnitude to 57.91, meaning people would need almost 19 protection from other sources beyond 2-slotted Acrobatics. Thankfully, I don't think that Incarnates or Power Boost affect knockback, so we don't have to worry about fringe cases from those.

[gromartwo]

The Prestige Sprints are probably the reason the devs didn't allow UT into regular Sprint. They may have thought Blessing of The Zephyr would be abused.

[BrandX]

1 hour ago, gromartwo said:

The Prestige Sprints are probably the reason the devs didn't allow UT into regular Sprint. They may have thought Blessing of The Zephyr would be abused.

 

Thought it would be abused?

 

More like, knew it would be abused. 😛

[Razor Cure]

Would the prosed ideas make kb worthless in PvP? Like totally (other than force bolt and maybe power push?). That just seems a bit sad, that such a 'good' strategic mechanic would be rendered moot. Not that I don't understand it, kb in pvp sucks hard. But even so..

Fixing kb, and essential removing it just seems to be basically applying a bandaid to everyone. And removing a mechanic that would be a big influence on pvp.

 

On 7/5/2019 at 5:57 AM, CR Banana Man said:

What we could (should) do is add KB protection and resists to the melee sets that currently don’t have any (fire, ninjitsu, any others I’m missing).

In PvE too, please? There is literally only 3 sets without kb prot, and one (nin) GETS it as scappers/sentinals. The argument about kb prot in pve being so easy to obtain is totally valid. If pvp gets kb removed just to make builds easier (and again, ditching what could be an important mechanic) why do any melee sets in pve have a kb hole?

[aethereal]

I'm (genuinely) curious, why are PvP KB mags so high?  Can't they be set independently from PvE KB mags?  It seems like we could get the same benefit that the OP was describing, with less effect on the rest of the game, if there weren't a whole bunch of 30+ mag KBs in PvP.  It's not a lot of powers, based on the list someone published mid-thread, couldn't we just tweak them all down to sane numbers?

[Itikar]

7 hours ago, Razor Cure said:

and one (nin) GETS it as scappers/sentinals.

And stalker has practically a must-skip power instead, smoke flash, so they can use the power slot to grab acrobatics if they want to.

[Razor Cure]

2 hours ago, Itikar said:

And stalker has practically a must-skip power instead, smoke flash, so they can use the power slot to grab acrobatics if they want to.

lol, seriously? The argument to stalker-nin NOT having a staple of 98% of other melee sets is...Nin gets (in your words) an almost must skip power? Well gee..that sounds like awesome set design. Lemme not have something pivotal to melees and get something useless instead! Yay.