All sapping team idea.

[graeberguinn]

I was running DFB the other night with an electric controller and he was able to keep most groups drained of all End.

Now I know it was only low lvl dfb but it got me thinking how viable a whole spaping themed team could be. 

I have heard it can be an OK strategy for a solo but hard at high lvls to keep full groups drained. Might be better to just focus on other controls or defeating enemies. 

 

But it got my rusty gears wondering if you had a team focused on sapping how many would you need (2-8 teamates), what would be the best AT/powers for team makeup, and would this be a viable strategy with a whole team focused on sapping. Is this just a futile gimmick or could it actually work? 

 

Just a fun thought experiment as I don't really NEED anymore alts but if this could work I'd be down for sure. I love the all (x) teams and TF runs. 

 

Has this already been done? 

 

So what are your thoughts good, bad, in-between on a full sapping focused team. 

Edited May 4 by graeberguinn

[Adeon Hawkwood]

Realistically you don't need that many sappers on a team. A /Electric Defender with decent slotting can drain most even level enemies in just two uses of Short Circuit. So two sappers could drain them pretty much instantly and once they are drained the recovery debuff keeps them that way. Now if you're running at +4 you would either need more sappers or more cycles to drain enemies.

 

However sapping as mitigation runs into two main problems. First it does very little for Alpha Strike mitigation, on my Time/Electric Defender I rely on the Time powers to deal with that until Short Circuit has time to cycle, that's fine for soloing but on team the sapping is less relevant since by the time enemies are sapped they are also dead. Secondly sapping is useless against AVs so a team that relies on sapping for it's sole damage mitigation would struggle there.

[Snarky]

Seems like a sappy idea…

[TheMoneyMaker]

I've never found end drain particularly useful against NPCs

[MonteCarla]

Hmmm...
In an ideal situation, your superteam can run in and drain each group of enemies to zero with one hit, and are then safe to take them down as quickly as possible with actual damage before they scatter.

So let's start with Electrical Blast for everyone, with Short Circuit (big -End and -Recovery) slotted for End Mod first, damage second. That does 70% drain, so 35% drain against +4's, so you'd want three people with this powerset to run in and alpha. 

Slot your other powers for damage first, end drain as extra.

Short Circuit has a long animation, so give someone Force Fields to keep you all safe while you do this. A Defender is ideal here as they can soft cap their team mates by themselves.

You can now all attack, and take advantage of the Shocked mechanic to get boosted damage.

May as well have a Kineticist in there to boost everyone's damage while you're at it. Make them a Corrupter maybe. 

And then add Blasters or Corrupters with -Res debuffs. Maybe swap Force Fields out for two Time Defenders with Farsight, so everyone gets full damage boosts and rotating -Res debuffs?

 

So

 

1 x FF/Elec Blast Defender

1 x Elec Blast/Kin Corrupter

Elec/whatever Blasters

 

Or 

 

2 x Time/Elec Blast Defenders

1 x Elec Blast/Kin Corrupter

Elec/whatever Blasters

 

The End Drain will do less than stacking support sets will, but it'll still be fun to watch the blue bars drop.

 

And maybe add a Elec/Something Controller in there to lay down Electric Fences to stop the enemies running around once they're drained.

 

I think the Repeat Offenders used to have an End Drain team, called "Don't Whiz on the Electric Fence"? Or did I just imagine that? 🙂

[Scarlet Shocker]

Sapping is always good fun unless the building you're tunnelling under falls on top of your head. Oh... wait...

 

 

I actually love Elec for it's -End. One on a team doesn't do well, but a few do very well but struggle with AVs and EBs - but so long as you have some good other damage that's not insuperable.

 

I'd love to go on an all sapping team.

[MoonSheep]

2 hours ago, MonteCarla said:

Hmmm...
In an ideal situation, your superteam can run in and drain each group of enemies to zero with one hit, and are then safe to take them down as quickly as possible with actual damage before they scatter.

So let's start with Electrical Blast for everyone, with Short Circuit (big -End and -Recovery) slotted for End Mod first, damage second. That does 70% drain, so 35% drain against +4's, so you'd want three people with this powerset to run in and alpha. 

Slot your other powers for damage first, end drain as extra.

Short Circuit has a long animation, so give someone Force Fields to keep you all safe while you do this. A Defender is ideal here as they can soft cap their team mates by themselves.

You can now all attack, and take advantage of the Shocked mechanic to get boosted damage.

May as well have a Kineticist in there to boost everyone's damage while you're at it. Make them a Corrupter maybe. 

And then add Blasters or Corrupters with -Res debuffs. Maybe swap Force Fields out for two Time Defenders with Farsight, so everyone gets full damage boosts and rotating -Res debuffs?

 

So

 

1 x FF/Elec Blast Defender

1 x Elec Blast/Kin Corrupter

Elec/whatever Blasters

 

Or 

 

2 x Time/Elec Blast Defenders

1 x Elec Blast/Kin Corrupter

Elec/whatever Blasters

 

The End Drain will do less than stacking support sets will, but it'll still be fun to watch the blue bars drop.

 

And maybe add a Elec/Something Controller in there to lay down Electric Fences to stop the enemies running around once they're drained.

 

I think the Repeat Offenders used to have an End Drain team, called "Don't Whiz on the Electric Fence"? Or did I just imagine that? 🙂

 

hmm, i actually disagree with part of this - the alts suggested are very good at draining endurance but not as good at sustaining the zero endurance

 

from my experience on the beta server, elec control is a real winner as conductive aura is constantly sapping endurance during combat, removing the need to reapply

 

i find things like /elec defenders mean i’m permanently in a frantic rush trying to reapply my end draining powers

 

elec control dom with a melee focused secondary like earth assault or ice assault would get my vote, both have power boost too

 

time to make an elec/ice dom on mids..

[Snarky]

one thing i did not see mentioned.  NPCs CHEAT with end.  Say they have an attack that costs 20 end.  They can fire it on 1 end.  (you try that!)  It makes the recovery suppression huge, because you have to squish it to zero and keep it there for it to be useful.  

[Scarlet Shocker]

there are a few powers that provide -Recovery (and I believe some Incarnate powers offer that too) so with a couple of good sappers on a team who coordinate it should be doable.

 

Yes NPCs do cheat but that's always been the case. Endurance in this game is a resource that needs to be managed by players to reduce the damage they can do over time. Most games have two (or more) criteria to manage, one is most always health (0 health means incapacity/death) - otherwise it's just steamroller.

 

So les cheating more forcing players to prioritise resources which makes for a better game - and even more importantly, better players IMO

[Cavalier666]

My ice tank with the mu pool and the right interface can keep a group to zero end a lot of the time. Considering how well that works out I'd say only 2 good end drainers are 'needed'. Others would be good as reliable backups.

[graeberguinn]

These are all great insights. I will say in clarification that I'm only looking at this as a fun experiment. A way to cheese the game and make a fun trolling group.  A team where you could all have some type of end drain power to be able to just stand there and watch the enemies be able to do nothing. Even is enemies cheat and get 1 end and fire an attack off they'd be drained the next second to just stand there and do nothing again. 

You know just trying to shake up the same old rush in, aoe nearly everything dead, ST the stragglers and move on rushing to next group 5-10sec later. 

 

This is great food for thought. 

[Wavicle]

14 hours ago, Snarky said:

one thing i did not see mentioned.  NPCs CHEAT with end.  Say they have an attack that costs 20 end.  They can fire it on 1 end.  (you try that!)  It makes the recovery suppression huge, because you have to squish it to zero and keep it there for it to be useful.  

 

I've never seen what you're describing here. Exactly the opposite. If I can keep enemy endurance low they will not be able to use high cost abilities.

[Snarky]

28 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

 

I've never seen what you're describing here. Exactly the opposite. If I can keep enemy endurance low they will not be able to use high cost abilities.

okay, fair enough.  i do not sap, so i am just repeating what i learned on the forums.  

 

can we get a sapper in here?

[Psyonico]

18 hours ago, MonteCarla said:

I think the Repeat Offenders used to have an End Drain team, called "Don't Whiz on the Electric Fence"

We did on live.  I believe someone remade the SG on HC as well.

 

As for draining, it’s kind of an all-or-nothing mitigation, so it’s not as useful as it seems.

 

Electric Control is kind of the king of draining between electric fences and conductive aura, but it has very little -recovery, meaning enemies will still get off attacks occasionally.  This can be mitigated with, for example, poison, who’s version of Poison Trap does -recovery rather than -regen.  Electric/Poison also has the synergy of both sets having a PBAoE toggle.

 

 I’ve tried that combo before, but personally I’m not a fan of Electric Control.

[Wavicle]

35 minutes ago, Snarky said:

okay, fair enough.  i do not sap, so i am just repeating what i learned on the forums.  

 

can we get a sapper in here?

 

They will be able to fire off cheap powers, but not costly ones. That's why end drain is useful even without -Recovery.

[MonteCarla]

I've found the -Recovery to be really important.

Short Circuit gives 10 s of -100% Recovery
Thunderous Blast gives 20s of -100% Recovery.
I think the purple patch reduces the amount of -Recovery rather than the duration, so a team of Short Circuit-ers should have no trouble keeping the enemies floored at over -100% Recovery. It does need re-applying, sure, but its also part of your AoE attack chain, so you'll be using it anyway when its up.

I have tried Electric Control twice and it does drain really well too, and provide mass immobilise to stop the drained enemies from just running off. Conductive Aura mostly makes up for the lack of -Recovery, but may allow a sneaky shot in between pulses, which Short Circuit strictly forbids for those 10 seconds.

[mistagoat]

Did everyone forget that Electric Sentinels exist? Get 2 Sents on a team with Thunderous Blast on a sub 30 sec recharge and all blue bars are donezo! They even get an AoE immob at 35 to prevent runners. . I love Electric Blasters but they don't sap as well as Sents mainly due to longer nuke recharge time and Electric trollers are fun too but Thunderous Blast is a massive end drain and -recovery tool that trollers can't access. Sents are the sapping kings of CoH!

 

 

[laudwic]

I've run two Defenders where their main damage mitigation is sapping to great success soloing well beyond 50 (my marine/ele has 50 vet levels from normal play).  One Electrical Affinity/Electrical Blast (The main plus for that one was Faraday Cage) and one Marine/Electrical Blast (Tide Pool, plus White cap knocks everything down then Shock).  Both are HIGHLY effective and sapping is a very effective strategy except as you get to some of the AVs and Monsters as it seems that they have been given protection against end drain.

 

A few Marine/Electrical Blast Defenders working together would be very effective between the knockdown (really knock back but if your close are they are above you they are knocked down) from doing multiple Whitecap attacks into tide pool, followed by shock (both my defenders will sap the enemy group to zero between shock and ball lightning) and the slow effects of tide pool would keep them in the area for clean up. 

[srmalloy]

On 5/4/2025 at 12:33 AM, TheMoneyMaker said:

I've never found end drain particularly useful against NPCs

I've had a lot of fun with my Elec/Elec Sentinel, particulary during the Halloween event; it's entertaining to watch the EBs spawn and be almost instantly reduced to punching because they're at zero End and kept there. The EB spawns are annoying solely because it takes more time to run them out of HP.

[Psyonico]

3 hours ago, mistagoat said:

Did everyone forget that Electric Sentinels exist?

Probably.

 

i was going to comment about their AoEs only hitting 6 targets, but apparently Sentinel Short Circuit and Thunderous Blast have a target cap of 10.

 

 They do, however, have the limitation of SC coming at 22 unlike other ATs.

[Scarlet Shocker]

2 hours ago, Psyonico said:

Probably.

 

i was going to comment about their AoEs only hitting 6 targets, but apparently Sentinel Short Circuit and Thunderous Blast have a target cap of 10.

 

 They do, however, have the limitation of SC coming at 22 unlike other ATs.

 

Scarlet Shocker exists on different shards as different ATs.

 

Scarlet Blaster isn't nearly as effective at sapping (or surviving) as Scarlet Sentinel. Partly I think that's because a Sentinel gets in the melee from very early on, and its survivability allows it to be in the fight for longer, whereas a Blaster benefits from having somebody to distract the mobs while delivering damage and/or secondary effects to be truly impactful.

 

As others have noted above, it's rare to get a team that focuses on sapping, so by the time any electric AT becomes effective, usually most mobs are dead or the fight has devolved to the players vs one or maybe two very tough AVs/EBs which are less vulnerable to sapping in the first place.

 

I'd also add, as an aside but important from the point of the Heroes game at least, that Sapping presents an opportunity to bring opponents to heel in a very non-lethal manner. Most of the game is balanced towards City of Heroes, but the logic of "I arrested him by smashing him several times in the face with a 12 foot long sword, your honor" does sometimes jar. Being able to neutralise somebody by completely removing their energy to resist seems like quite a good way to go about your business.

Edited May 5 by Scarlet Shocker
An aside

[Doomguide2005]

     Yes it can be done and yes @PsyonicoMerryl recreated the Shock Troopers SG on Everlasting. 

 

     Short Circuit is more than capable of draining effectively and doing ED capped damage especially with the newer Endmod sets which include a damage component.  Shock Troopers certainly destroyed mobs on Live.  How the changes to how sapping works on HC would effect things for a full team of Troopers is tricky to say.  Damage likely better with Shocked mechanic but apparent inability to actually zero out a +4 AV (or a +0) is a bummer.

 

Part of what makes mobs 'cheaty' is their endurance pools not the ability to fire stronger powers cheaper.  An AV has an End pool of 800 endurance so if your character gains x end/sec ... well they are gaining 8 times that on a server tic.  So one tic of recovery effectively gives them more to use a power.  That's why bottoming out their recovery is important.  8 times 0 is still 0 end gained back.

 

     All this assumes things haven't changed since Live beyond the changes on our end of things.  While I've paid attention to the bottom end of the bar I haven't really looked at the high end.  It does seem to be impossible to get AV and GMs below 15 end near as I can tell.

[Scarlet Shocker]

Had a go on MoM last night - I was paying attention to Penny during that because we floored her Recovery and whilst she would get dribs and drabs back she was never really able to slap us effectively.

 

I'm seriously thinking I'd love to form an all-Sapping static team for this. Anyone else up for it?

[Doomguide2005]

I'd be loving the idea but my play times and availability can be erratic.

 

Edit:  one thing I'd be curious about is if the Tempest (-end) proc would be able to bypass the minimum of 15 end they seem to have.  On a Defender it's a decent chunk of -13 end as i recall.

Edited May 6 by Doomguide2005

[Ukase]

The problem I've encountered is most npcs, even with 0 endurance still attack. And draining end doesn't give you any xp. Drain the Health, then you're doing something. It's probably interesting the first few times, but after that, you realize it's faster and more efficient to just defeat them.