How would you nerf tankers?

[macskull]

TL;DR: I wouldn't. Maybe keep the "overcap" mechanic but make it a flat damage reduction instead of an exponential dropoff, and then revert the rest of the changes. I think instead of nerfing Tankers we should be looking at Brutes and finding ways to make the two ATs more unique. Right now you kind of have this situation where the idea is supposed to be that Tankers are better at AoE and Brutes are better at single target, but the ST difference in many scenarios is so small it's not worth mentioning.

[Uncle Shags]

It's a false dichotomy to suggest that the only two options here are to embrace tankers in their current state or to embrace the suggested changes as proposed. There's a whole lot of middle ground.

 

2 hours ago, Warshades said:

Personally I agree with others that a tankers main role should be to tank and be able to soak up/hold aggro. The issue with these changes is that it affects every secondary melee set on tankers. The sets that already overperform like SS, fire, axe, etc will be fine. It's the sets that underperform that will get truly killed by these changes. There is to big of a disparity between the top and bottom damage dealing melee sets and I would've preferred that they worked on closing the gap by increasing the performance of some of the weaker sets before scaling back damage output the way they are.

 

Exactly!

 

1 hour ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

Are you even aware that a player who only runs SOs at +0/1 will likely notice not a single difference in their play with these changes in effect?

 

What does this have to do with anything?  Who the hell is only playing with SOs vs +0s?!

 

1 hour ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

 I just checked and saw you joined us in 2024. I can understand where you're coming from if you're this new to the history of Tankers on HC. 

 

My main 20 years ago was a Fire/SS tank that was hell on wheels. Want a video for that too?

 

1 hour ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

This honestly just comes off as you not being very good at playing or building Tankers. 

 

Ha! I just need to "get good"?  It didn't take long for your true colors to come out, eh?! This honestly just comes off of as you not being very good at not being condescending, insulting, pompous, dismissive, elitist, cliche. I'd take being decent person over not being good at tanking and building any day!

 

1 hour ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

Post video.

 

Ha again! You're a riot! I posted live/beta times for 3 different tankers in the focused feedback thread. Think I'm a liar? Do your own testing and prove me wrong. Or not.

 

 

 

Edited Sunday at 10:15 PM by Uncle Shags
Removed an unnecessary insult

[FupDup]

The way I would've done it is something a bit more direct and simple: The melee damage modifier (all other changes reverted/removed). Once upon a time, this value used to be 0.80. Today, it's 0.95, and for reference Blasters are set to 1.0. I think it's kind of stupid that the tankiest thing in the game is allowed to have 95% of the melee damage of the quintessential glass cannon class. I have an oldschool mentality/philosophy that in general, more damage should equal less survival and vice versa. 

 

I would set this value to around 0.875 or so, trying to find a midway point between new and old (0.90 might not do anything and 0.85 might be too close to the original value). This would result in a reduction in both ST and AOE melee damage, but not the extreme exponential dropoff that the new overcap mechanic uses. They would probably still keep their AOE edge, which I think is fine, but this would increase the size of the ST damage gap between them and Brutes without buffing up Brute damage to start stepping into Scrapper territory and repeating the cycle all over again. 

[Greatmage]

I do have one big concern on the nerfs. What about the tank sets like Bio Armor with defensive stance it already lowers your damage by 25%. Adding these nerfs to it would make that almost unusable in reg game play would it not?

 

[tidge]

40 minutes ago, FupDup said:

The way I would've done it is something a bit more direct and simple: The melee damage modifier (all other changes reverted/removed). Once upon a time, this value used to be 0.80. Today, it's 0.95, and for reference Blasters are set to 1.0. I think it's kind of stupid that the tankiest thing in the game is allowed to have 95% of the melee damage of the quintessential glass cannon class. I have an oldschool mentality/philosophy that in general, more damage should equal less survival and vice versa.

 

I hear what you are saying, but consider this: Once most of the enemy critters in the game have a floored 5% chance to hit, somewhat skews perceptions of what 'less survival' means.

 

Blasters have it pretty good on Homecoming... I'd never advocate going back to the nukes w/ crash, or the era before 'sustains' but if you are talking going back to "old school"...

[SeraphimKensai]

As I was summoned to the thread on the first page I will say, I don't remember doing too much testing, but my memory has more holds in it than a sieve these days so who knows.

 

As a means of not incriminating myself to anything, I officially plead the 5th.

 

That said I'm not a fan of the overcap mechanic myself and agree the sentiments that @macskull and @FupDup raised.

[Neiska]

Personally, I think if they are going to handicap Tanker damage, then IMO they should look at DPS survivability stats. I mean if they can get 70% of what a tanker gets, the tanker should get 70% of their damage then, right? (Not speaking literally here, just an example for context.) 

 

Out of all the games I have played, the "glass cannons" here do not feel "glass cannon" at all. They can do absurd amounts of damage and still feel fairly durable. At least able to take a few hits, and in this game that's certainly enough to clear rooms.

 

As far as Tankers? I felt they were in an okay spot. And I would be okay with "some" of the changes, but not all of them together. Either the nerf to target cap damage or reduced everything else. but all of them together seems fairly harsh. 

 

Do agree with the sentiment of - instead of nerfing tankers, give people reasons to play brutes. I remember when it was hard to find a tanker do to things with. Some of the hardcode teams don't even use tankers, they just take turns popping incarnates. If you ask me, those kinds of shenanigans are more game breaking than tankers AOE damage ever could be, but that's just me musing.

[Neiska]

1 hour ago, Greatmage said:

I do have one big concern on the nerfs. What about the tank sets like Bio Armor with defensive stance it already lowers your damage by 25%. Adding these nerfs to it would make that almost unusable in reg game play would it not?

 

 

The changes is not "flat" (IE constant) damage nerf, it is during periods of self-buff like rage/build up. But the way I read it, the change to cones and diminishing over cap damage is a constant.

[twozerofoxtrot]

4 hours ago, Uncle Shags said:

What does this have to do with anything? 

 

You keep asking this, and I keep answering in good faith. Only for you to ignore or demand something else.

 

It doesn't seem like my time is being well spent in doing that. So I'll stop.

 

4 hours ago, Uncle Shags said:

It didn't take long for your true colors to come out, eh?!

 

Well that's because I don't hide them

 

Sorry if you felt I was calling you "bad." It was really me trying to help you understand your line of reasoning wasn't at all persuasive. 

 

51 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

I don't remember doing too much testing, but my memory has more holds in it than a sieve these days so who knows.

 

Apologies! I really thought it was you who coined the proc monsters thread. 

[Neiska]

9 hours ago, MTeague said:

<shrug>  I think the upcoming changes are just fine. 

• Tanks still hold threat like a champ.
• Playstyle for teams should not be impacted. On a team, the other players still melt enemies just as fast.
• Soloing medium sized groups is not greatly impacted, because you won't have overcapped numbers of targets anyway.
• For the most part, kill speed seems to be only meaningfully lowered when you are soloing +4x8.
• Even then you can still DO it, it just takes a bit longer to wear them down. 

Maybe I would care more if I cared about clear times, but I don't, and I never have.  When I play a Tanker, what I care about is feeling unkillable, and the flow of the game. Whether a fight vs an individual spawn takes 30 seconds or 90 seconds, I do not care.

 

While I agree with your points, I do want to show perhaps another side of the coin so to speak. Not making the case that this IS the situation, only what might become the situation.

 

In another game (For those wondering its ESO), tankers are effectively just big blocks of hitpoints that buff their party, and debuff the enemies. Their damage is inconsequential. They do literally minor damage compared to everyone else's. Tankers are only needed for multi-party targets. The DPS do so much damage, that even 5 man team bosses are completely obliterated. So what ends up happening is people cue for tanks who are not tanks at all, just to run the mission and finish as fast as possible. The biggest downside to the whole situation is that actual raid level tanks are few and far between, not from just experience and practice, but from desire. In that game it SUCKS to solo tank, even to solo quest because the damage is so terrible. 

 

Now I am not saying this is the case for CoH, only that kind of philosophy is what lead to that games situation. They made tanks completely irrelevant aside from being able to take hits, and aggro. So much to the point that very few people have any desire to play them. Sure, tankers should be tough! But they should be able to solo and do other things too and not take 10 years to do it. And the way things are going, it wouldn't surprise me in the last if this is how things turn out. Looking over all the changes since HC got popular, it certainly seems the devs have a specific design in mind. (Only some builds/sets/ATs are allowed to be overpowered.)

[macskull]

35 minutes ago, Neiska said:

Out of all the games I have played, the "glass cannons" here do not feel "glass cannon" at all. They can do absurd amounts of damage and still feel fairly durable.

For a lot of people this is a feature, not something to be eliminated.

[Psyonico]

5 hours ago, Uncle Shags said:

Who the hell is only playing with SOs vs +0s?!

I play almost exclusively with SOs until 27 then swap out to level 30 common IOs.  If I’m solo, I’m usually playing at +0 unless I’ve actually invested in sets.

 

 You have a problem with that?

 

But regardless, even at x3 or x4 you’re not coming in contact with 10 enemies in a spawn, meaning you won’t feel the diminishing returns on a PBAoE, yes, you’ll feel the cones if you Hit more than 5

 

2 hours ago, Greatmage said:

Bio Armor with defensive stance it already lowers your damage by 25%

defensive stance is made to be used when you’re on a team that can supply damage.  If I’m solo on a Bio tanker, I’m using either offensive or efficient.

[kelika2]

dont nerf base damage

keep that diminishing damage on "overcap" targets

 

---

 

give brutes maybe 50% more damage on their % cap

and maybe a little more damage from fury

or maybe get rid of that huge fury drain/fade/decay at 80%+ on fury

i dont wanna run numbers

 

scrappers and stalkers are still kings

brutes get a little edge over tankers

tankers dont have to suck it

[UltraAlt]

On 5/31/2025 at 7:07 AM, Uncle Shags said:

How would you nerf tankers in a fair way?

 

I would make them all take taunt when it first becomes available, make two next level-up slots automatically go into taunt, and make taunt and those two slots the first automatic picks when respec'ing.

 

I'm sure most tankers would think that was a massive nerf considering the tanks I've seen on team lately.

 

Yeah, I think that would probably be fair to the rest of the team.

 

And, yeah, I always take taunt on my tanker and this only sort of a joke.

[Marine X]

Copied a Tank I have been playing a lot of late, Roughneck - INV/War Mace, to Open Beta and gave it a run around the block. I could definitely see the drop in Damage, but it really wasn't game breaking. This particular power combo is for me, one of the more DPS high, so it still has decent output. I imagine the changes could be much more painful on some other lower damage secondaries. I solo a lot because of where and when I play, so as long as I can still do that, I'm good. A Tank's primary role on a team is not going to be made ineffective by these changes and did not seem to change aggro or stckiness. I can always look at some Enhancement Upgrades after it goes live if it seems like it needs some "oomph" put back.

[Snarky]

8 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

but my memory has more holds in it than a sieve these days so who knows.

 

AI officially plead the 5th.

 

your memory has holds like a sieve.

 

wait, you're a Sith?!?

 

[Snarky]

2 hours ago, kelika2 said:

give brutes maybe 50% more damage on their % cap

and maybe a little more damage from fury

or maybe get rid of that huge fury drain/fade/decay at 80%+ on fury

i dont wanna run numbers

 

so, roll back the giant nerf years ago to Brutes.  

 

Can we send all Scrapper comments to you to resolve?

[kelika2]

48 minutes ago, Snarky said:

so, roll back the giant nerf years ago to Brutes.  

 

Can we send all Scrapper comments to you to resolve?

like i said i didnt want to do the numbers/math

whats the current brute cap?  600%?  i meant 650%.  not 900%.

im confused and i used a calculator so if you still dont get it lets drop it

[tidge]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

so, roll back the giant nerf years ago to Brutes. 

 

You often write this, but what is the 'giant nerf to Brutes' you are referring to?

[FupDup]

3 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

You often write this, but what is the 'giant nerf to Brutes' you are referring to?

The only one I remember was when HC reduced their max damage cap at the same time that they did all the Tanker buffs. Specifically, Brute max damage went from 775% to 700%. I don't know if I'd call that giant however, since it takes a team with diligent damage buffers and/or a lot of red insps to still reach that reduced cap.

 

I think there might have been some other nerfs to them in the pre-HC days but I don't remember that stuff. 

[Erratic1]

4 hours ago, kelika2 said:

give brutes maybe 50% more damage on their % cap

 

Not going to happen. Brutes would be more damaging than they ever have, and they were nerfed to keep them under Scrapper damage in all contexts.

 

4 hours ago, kelika2 said:

and maybe a little more damage from fury

 

Again, not going to happen.

 

4 hours ago, kelika2 said:

or maybe get rid of that huge fury drain/fade/decay at 80%+ on fury

 

Already done.

[tidge]

4 minutes ago, FupDup said:

The only one I remember was when HC reduced their max damage cap at the same time that they did all the Tanker buffs. Specifically, Brute max damage went from 775% to 700%. I don't know if I'd call that giant however, since it takes a team with diligent damage buffers and/or a lot of red insps to still reach that reduced cap.

 

I think there might have been some other nerfs to them in the pre-HC days but I don't remember that stuff. 

 

I also remember the max damage cap change, and I also don't remember anything else that would qualify as a 'giant nerf to Brutes'... which is why I want to know what @Snarky is referring to.

[Ukase]

On 5/31/2025 at 7:23 PM, twozerofoxtrot said:

Tankers had literally 5 and a half years of disgustingly high damage output and survivability.

I'm not going to say you're right or wrong here. I'm just going to say that maybe I've been doing it wrong. Survivability? Sure. That's to be expected, having higher base hp than other ATs. 

But disgustingly high damage? You haven't seen my tanks. Most don't use damage procs, except maybe in one or two attacks. Usually just one. DPS isn't the goal of a tank. The goal is to take a beating for the team/league and keep them as safe as practical. Damage is the role of a scrapper or brute if you're preferring melee play. At least, that's the way it's been forever. This idea that greater target caps allowed for faster clear times on certain tanks with certain powersets might be true for some of the smarter players who can eke out more dps without sacrificing other attributes, but not every tank powerset has burn or foot stomp. (or whatever). And certainly not every player has experienced playing a tank with "disgustingly high damage output". I certainly haven't. 



 

[Doc Spectre]

Copied my lvl50 ice/ice tank over to the test server and did a new 2nd build using SOs. Then I ran a through a few +1x8 newspaper missions. Honestly I’m completely fine with the changes, the minions die fast enough and I was left to clean up bosses  as usual. 
I think that if was to add IO sets and incarnates to the build I could happily Jack the difficulty up a couple of notches. Maybe it’s not the fastest clear time in the world but I would not be expecting that from a tank. 
Just my opinion 😉

[Uncle Shags]

9 hours ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

You keep asking this, and I keep answering in good faith. Only for you to ignore or demand something else.

 

I'm not sure what you mean. This was the first time you mentioned SOs and +0 and the first time I asked about it.  What do I keep asking and what do you keep answering? 

 

8 hours ago, Psyonico said:

I play almost exclusively with SOs until 27 then swap out to level 30 common IOs.  If I’m solo, I’m usually playing at +0 unless I’ve actually invested in sets.

 

 You have a problem with that?

 

Nope, no problem!  I do this too.

 

Thank you for answering the question of who uses SOs - lowbies. Sorry, I didn't jump to that conclusion myself. 

 

I guess it would be some comfort knowing this wouldn't impact leveling. But I'm not sure it wouldn't. My testing was at +0 and the impact was significant. And if you're playing a set that does a lot of cone damage it's going to sting.